Yeah I was reading more and apparently prohibition did have some good effects with reducing illness and death from alcohol

ok now i’m completely, idealistically invested in prohibition

Obivously they didn’t have megacorps back in the day, but developed, institutional betting has been around since Rome where it was commonplace for pretty much everyone to do it at arenas.

I looked more into moonshine and distillation, and I actually think the more dangerous part of it is the equipment itself rather than the methanol in foreshots. I’m still skeptical that more people would have alcohol-based negative health outcomes in a prohibition scenario compared to the current one. Apparently death and illness from alcohol dropped pretty significantly during prohibition.

That makes sense about the dogfighting, I really don’t know much about it but was curious regardless.

I suppose one could make the argument that adults should have the right to gamble responsibly, but like you can also think regulations against problem gambling are good.

That’s largely where I’m at, I was just surprised by how hardline people are regarding it on here.

On the article there are some people like you mention (“Jenny, a sex worker who also runs a nude housework business in Seattle”) but also the first person they mention is someone who turned to sex work after getting kicked out of their parent’s house at 18. And later there’s this:

Pike Long, the deputy director of St. James Infirmary, a health and safety clinic for sex workers in the city, told me the clinic estimates the number of sex workers now doing street work in San Francisco alone has tripled since Craigslist’s personals section and BackPage went offline.

I"m not super educated on sex work but I"m assuming street work is going to be much more dangerous than the web stuff

There some study I can’t find now, but it claimed legalizing prostitution actually increased human trafficking because now traffickers could mask their operations as legal sex work opening them up to new clientele they normally wouldn’t have access to.

That’s interesting—on the other hand, I know of one case where the shuttering of a sex work website due to human trafficking charges (which Kamala Harris lead the charge on, as it happens) actually made a lot of sex workers feel less safe. Article here.

It’s not quite the same concept, but thought it was worth mentioning.

And yeah I think making gambling less accessible and less visible is good. But then, shouldn’t we also do the same for alcohol and drugs, just up to the point where it’s still easier to get them legally than illegally?

No your perspective is really helpful actually. Definitely agree on both being societal ills. I’ve just started working around a bunch of people going through really hard times w/ drugs and have my own unresolved childhood trauma related to it, so this has been slowly creeping up on me for the past couple months.

I just see the harm it causes people everyday and then people seem to just kinda dismiss it as unimportant versus gambling. That’s an uncharitable representation of that opinion but it’s the way it came across to me.

I’m averse to gray areas and inconsistency to a fault, so maybe that’s part of why I feel so differently here.

First I want to apologize if I got a little rude in my previous comment—I was just getting off work so the issue of drugs and alcohol was front of mind. Ultimately I want to understand what you and everyone else is saying, and me getting snippy gets in the way of that and isn’t good for anyone.

No arguments on the cigarettes!

I’m ambivalent about alcohol because it’s been part of human culture basically since human culture has existed, it feels almost like cultural erasure to ban it

We could say the same for gambling too though, right? It’s about as old and has similar cultural effects.

Fun fact, you can’t actually make vodka or any distilled spirits in a bathtub, which I didn’t know before I looked it up. You need some kind of still or still-like instrument to distill it, otherwise you just have a bunch gross tasting “wash” and that barrier to entry means very few people would end up doing it. Homebrew of beer, wine, mead, and other such “softer” alcohol is actually pretty safe all things considered, which I didn’t really know either. All academic because I don’t think it’s a good idea at the end of the day, but I found it interesting at least.

I question the irrepressability of gambling being limited to the small scale. Unlike alcohol production which has a pretty big physical footprint, a pretty big gambling operation could just go through encrypted channels and stuff to keep it stealthy.

Also, I was thinking about currently still illegal gambling stuff like dogfighting or cockfighting. Isn’t it possible that people could get pushed to more harmful types of gambling like that if it gets pushed underground?

I’d never heard that angle before—outside of general “morals” stuff the only other lens I’ve seen was newly enfranchised women trying to stop their abusive husbands from getting ridiculously drunk all the time

I don’t think I’d say I’m demanding that they be fixed simultaneously. I’m saying that it’s weird people don’t hold these things to a similar standard and I find the reasoning behind it to be fairly spurious. I’d push back on “single idealist category” because I feel like it’s pretty simple delineation. They’re both activities that generally aren’t good for you that people still partake in because they’re fun. Dopamine hit in exchange for negative long term outcomes.

(Slightly edited this because I wasn’t happy with how combative I was being)

And it’s crazy how it all sprang up like mushrooms too. Banning ads like they did with cigarettes would help but the cat is already somewhat out of the bag for people who have gotten hooked

Allowing it, is, and this isn’t conjecture, it’s an observable fact, sucking money out of the working class (obviously worsening their living conditions in the process) and giving it to some of the worst predators that capitalism has to offer.

Again, can the same not be said of the alcohol and cigarette industries? I work with people in recovery at my job and people really go through some shit because of drugs.

But for whatever reason, we don’t see prohibition as the solution to that. So I’m asking why this is different and I’m getting precious few answers that don’t arbitrarily moralize.

Gambling is also something that lots of people enjoy and use responsibly, and is also deeply entrenched in human history and culture. The oldest recorded gambling record or instrument is within spitting distance of the oldest recorded alcohol on a civilizational scale. Entire polities exist and have existed predicated on gambling.

People gamble for fun and often with zero money involved. Have you seen Twitch prop bets before? It’s monopoly money but people still get into it and it’s certainly not small scale between individuals.

I’m really having a hard time seeing a meaningful distinction or justification for banning one and not the other here that doesn’t depend on individual mores.

Fire Hans 😤😤😤

Okay swag, but if that’s how it’s gonna be then shouldn’t alcohol and cigarettes/vapes go right along with it? I sure wouldn’t miss them

Are we talking about prohibition or restriction? I fully support restrictions on dangerous drugs, but hasn’t it been consistently shown that outlawing vices entirely doesn’t stop their consumption and just makes it more dangerous (especially for poor people)?

If we’re basing this off danger, then alcohol is the much more immediate concern given how easily available and culturally accepted it is while still being quite bad for you

But like, why don’t we extend that to drugs and alcohol though? No commericial sale, but you can make it and share with friends and family.

After all, no communist should be siding with Coors or Phillip Morris.

Quite frankly all of it could be banned and it wouldn’t affect me, so I don’t have a personal stake. I’m just intrigued by how people square the differences between vices.

I respect that! At least it’s consistent

Yeah that sounds good. People apparently want sports gambling to be wholly illegal in here, though

I don’t gamble and am actively repulsed by how it’s being pushed as hip and cool. That said, I’m surprised by the hardline abolition stances in here. Drugs (including alcohol) are surely far more corrosive to people’s wellbeing, but no one on here is arguing for prohibition, right?