Rising wealth inequality doesn’t say much about capitalists if that wealth inequality is tied to pensions (the case in the Netherlands) or housing. Denmark has one of the world’s highest mortgage interest deductions giving massive transfers of wealth to homeowners and lenders. This was a failed social attempt to improve homeownership in the whole global north.
I would love to see some statistics on rising market concentration in Scandinavia, cause isn’t that your argument? That the cause of inequality is due to rising market concentration?
I agree that imperialism is important. And I wish that organizations like UN had more power and credibility to uphold countries’ responsibilities of fairness. What exactly is Scandinavia doing according to you in the global south (I always assumed they are, but you seem to know more)? I’d love to hear more. I know that the IMF keeps lenders in poverty for example.
I’ve shown you myself that there is definitely concentrations of wealth. But in my last comment I explained to you that this rise in wealth is mainly attributed to housing. I showed you the statistics. I haven’t really seen you engage with that, was it because you don’t believe it? Or do you just need more time to look into it?
Monopoly rents happen when competition is reduced - from being able to charge more due to the lack of competition. Economic rents accrues to owners of fixed resources. They are both related to scarcity, but one is created and one is inherent. Land is not capital according to classical economists. This is because of its unique properties: https://www.cooperative-individualism.org/gaffney-mason_land-as-a-distinctive-factor-of-production.pdf for example it cannot be moved (capital can), it cannot be produced (capital must), it is necessary for production (capital is not - technically).
Land wealth is much more unearned than capital wealth, cause at least some capital wealth can be attributed to innovation and consumer preferences research. No increase in land values were ever fairly earned by the landowner cause land values only increase from scarcity, public investments, qualities of neighbors and private amenities popping up.
I never said land is the full picture, but what I said was that the data says it’s the biggest part. In the stiglitz quote I added it even recognized the importance of exploitation rents, monopoly rents etc. I’ve repeated that I think market power is a problem, but you seem to think I think it’s not. I’m not sure why you think that?
We agree that wealth inequality is rising, we agree that market power plays a role in that, we agree that it’s beneficial for at least some companies to be publicly owned, we agree that land plays a role in that, we agree that between country inequality is perpetuated by the global north to some extent, and probably we agree that imperialism left a power vaccuum and made it difficult for these countries to develop their own institutions.
We seem disagree about
the extent to which land plays a role in rising inequality - for which I have showed data that in my view should be quite convincing - let me know if you see any flaws?
conversely, the extent to capital (produced assets) plays a role in rising inequality - I’m not saying it doesn’t, just that land plays a a bigger role
how much capital it is necessary for the government to seize - again I believe natural monopolies have good reason to be publicly owned and that antitrust laws should have more power (and that politicians should not be allowed to own stocks, take campaign money or in any way make deals with companies)
how sceptical one should be in the possibility that society can democratically create anti monopolistic institutions that prevent market power from taking too much control. I have a bit of hope in that. Not sure what else you can do but learn, inform, and take action.
We just need to be focused. And that means to focus on the problem: land rents, monopoly rents, exploitation rents etc. Marxism offers one way to solve the problem. I believe at a big cost from a deontological ethics perspective. I believe there are other ways that would have lower costs.
But we could also just leave it at that, It seems you are set and at the same time being a bit rude. I see disagreement as an opportunity to learn. I think this is the best way to go about it, don’t you? Have you learned something from this conversation?
You’re misunderstanding many of my points. Market concentration is one aspect of how Capitalism functions, and is why it can’t last forever and is bound to be replaced by planning or by barbarism. Land ownership is a part of that process as well. However, the negative consequences of these facts are minimized in areas like Scandinavia through Imperialism.
You already kinda leaned into it, IMF loans are an example of Imperialism. Essentially, Scandinavian countries do the same thing other Imperialist countries do, they outsource the worst labor and pay far less for it than they’d pay for domestic labor, and along with the rest of the Imperialist gang use millitary threats and reliance on things like food control from countries like the US to keep these countries dependent. It’s why “aid” is really a tool of underdevelopment, true aid would allow countries in the Global South to develop themselves, rather than foster dependence.
I am not engaging mostly with the stats you bring up because they are one-sided and really serve to apologize for Capitalism and Imperialism, by focusing on land ownership alone when it’s a giant and interconnected system. I’m skeptical that the impact is as big as you say it is, but even if we accept them all as true, you’re still only analyzing one factor and thus miss the true problems at play. Marx elaborates as such in this letter discussing Henry George.
I’ll answer the disagreements in order:
The role of land. My point is that a Land Value Tax will not solve the problems of Capitalism. It can certainly play a role in a larger transition to Socialism, but it alone will simply pave the way for new avenues of exploitation, as has happened every time a “progressive Capitalism” has been enacted.
Capital, and its role. Land is one aspect of Capital, just as financial Capital and Industrial Capital are. You taking specific aim at Land ownership, and not at the system of private ownership as a whole, is why you have an incomplete view.
We agree already that Land needs to be tackled, and you agree that markets centralize and thus are better to have those monopolies folded into the public sector, but what happens after that? How do we get there in the first place? We keep folding into the public sector and abolish classes, and we get to there in the first place through revolution. We don’t sieze for the sake of siezing, but because it becomes an economic necessity as production increases in complexity.
It has never genuinely been possible for any working class to gain power by asking for it, ever. Only revolution has worked.
You do focus, but you over-focus, which is why you miss the key points. This is why there aren’t really any Georgists anymore, the right-Georgists become Social Democrats or Neoliberals, and the Left-Georgists become Marxists. Georgism occupies a niche underdeveloped in economics, which explains its scarcity. The largest economy by Purchasing Power Parity is run by Marxists, while Georgists don’t run anywhere.
I also don’t know what you mean by “ethical problems” with respect to Marxism. Marxism, if anything, is more ethical as it aims to abolish class society as a whole, rather than apologize for a large part of it and focus on one aspect.
I don’t think I’m being rude. I do disagree with your analysis quite sternly because I think you quite nearly get it. You fall just short, and it’s frustrating, if I’m being honest. If that manifests in rudeness on my part I apologize.
Rising wealth inequality doesn’t say much about capitalists if that wealth inequality is tied to pensions (the case in the Netherlands) or housing. Denmark has one of the world’s highest mortgage interest deductions giving massive transfers of wealth to homeowners and lenders. This was a failed social attempt to improve homeownership in the whole global north.
I would love to see some statistics on rising market concentration in Scandinavia, cause isn’t that your argument? That the cause of inequality is due to rising market concentration?
I agree that imperialism is important. And I wish that organizations like UN had more power and credibility to uphold countries’ responsibilities of fairness. What exactly is Scandinavia doing according to you in the global south (I always assumed they are, but you seem to know more)? I’d love to hear more. I know that the IMF keeps lenders in poverty for example.
I’ve shown you myself that there is definitely concentrations of wealth. But in my last comment I explained to you that this rise in wealth is mainly attributed to housing. I showed you the statistics. I haven’t really seen you engage with that, was it because you don’t believe it? Or do you just need more time to look into it?
Monopoly rents happen when competition is reduced - from being able to charge more due to the lack of competition. Economic rents accrues to owners of fixed resources. They are both related to scarcity, but one is created and one is inherent. Land is not capital according to classical economists. This is because of its unique properties: https://www.cooperative-individualism.org/gaffney-mason_land-as-a-distinctive-factor-of-production.pdf for example it cannot be moved (capital can), it cannot be produced (capital must), it is necessary for production (capital is not - technically).
Land wealth is much more unearned than capital wealth, cause at least some capital wealth can be attributed to innovation and consumer preferences research. No increase in land values were ever fairly earned by the landowner cause land values only increase from scarcity, public investments, qualities of neighbors and private amenities popping up.
I never said land is the full picture, but what I said was that the data says it’s the biggest part. In the stiglitz quote I added it even recognized the importance of exploitation rents, monopoly rents etc. I’ve repeated that I think market power is a problem, but you seem to think I think it’s not. I’m not sure why you think that?
We agree that wealth inequality is rising, we agree that market power plays a role in that, we agree that it’s beneficial for at least some companies to be publicly owned, we agree that land plays a role in that, we agree that between country inequality is perpetuated by the global north to some extent, and probably we agree that imperialism left a power vaccuum and made it difficult for these countries to develop their own institutions.
We seem disagree about
We just need to be focused. And that means to focus on the problem: land rents, monopoly rents, exploitation rents etc. Marxism offers one way to solve the problem. I believe at a big cost from a deontological ethics perspective. I believe there are other ways that would have lower costs.
But we could also just leave it at that, It seems you are set and at the same time being a bit rude. I see disagreement as an opportunity to learn. I think this is the best way to go about it, don’t you? Have you learned something from this conversation?
You’re misunderstanding many of my points. Market concentration is one aspect of how Capitalism functions, and is why it can’t last forever and is bound to be replaced by planning or by barbarism. Land ownership is a part of that process as well. However, the negative consequences of these facts are minimized in areas like Scandinavia through Imperialism.
You already kinda leaned into it, IMF loans are an example of Imperialism. Essentially, Scandinavian countries do the same thing other Imperialist countries do, they outsource the worst labor and pay far less for it than they’d pay for domestic labor, and along with the rest of the Imperialist gang use millitary threats and reliance on things like food control from countries like the US to keep these countries dependent. It’s why “aid” is really a tool of underdevelopment, true aid would allow countries in the Global South to develop themselves, rather than foster dependence.
I am not engaging mostly with the stats you bring up because they are one-sided and really serve to apologize for Capitalism and Imperialism, by focusing on land ownership alone when it’s a giant and interconnected system. I’m skeptical that the impact is as big as you say it is, but even if we accept them all as true, you’re still only analyzing one factor and thus miss the true problems at play. Marx elaborates as such in this letter discussing Henry George.
I’ll answer the disagreements in order:
The role of land. My point is that a Land Value Tax will not solve the problems of Capitalism. It can certainly play a role in a larger transition to Socialism, but it alone will simply pave the way for new avenues of exploitation, as has happened every time a “progressive Capitalism” has been enacted.
Capital, and its role. Land is one aspect of Capital, just as financial Capital and Industrial Capital are. You taking specific aim at Land ownership, and not at the system of private ownership as a whole, is why you have an incomplete view.
We agree already that Land needs to be tackled, and you agree that markets centralize and thus are better to have those monopolies folded into the public sector, but what happens after that? How do we get there in the first place? We keep folding into the public sector and abolish classes, and we get to there in the first place through revolution. We don’t sieze for the sake of siezing, but because it becomes an economic necessity as production increases in complexity.
It has never genuinely been possible for any working class to gain power by asking for it, ever. Only revolution has worked.
You do focus, but you over-focus, which is why you miss the key points. This is why there aren’t really any Georgists anymore, the right-Georgists become Social Democrats or Neoliberals, and the Left-Georgists become Marxists. Georgism occupies a niche underdeveloped in economics, which explains its scarcity. The largest economy by Purchasing Power Parity is run by Marxists, while Georgists don’t run anywhere.
I also don’t know what you mean by “ethical problems” with respect to Marxism. Marxism, if anything, is more ethical as it aims to abolish class society as a whole, rather than apologize for a large part of it and focus on one aspect.
I don’t think I’m being rude. I do disagree with your analysis quite sternly because I think you quite nearly get it. You fall just short, and it’s frustrating, if I’m being honest. If that manifests in rudeness on my part I apologize.