That simply is not true. The value of publicly traded stocks is based upon the speculation that the value of the stock will rise or decline which is often not related to the productivity of the workers.
The notion that all value cones from labor is fundamentally incorrect. Value can be created by scarcity and speculation which has been demonstrated time and again. For example all those recent finds of lithium potential mines have impacted the price of lithium world wide despite not a single mine being approved or any work being done to obtain it. Just knowing it is there has created that change.
All theories of value are lacking in one way or another, but you’re definitely in the wrong community if you fundamentally disagree with the labor theory of value. Intrinsically, an item has value based on demand and usefulness. However, no items exist without labor. The value of an item is disconnected from the wage exchanged to create it, and this theft of value is what we call “profit”.
Speculation depends on a belief that value will rise in the future, which depends on, except in a few extreme cases of investors being scammed, the recognition of other value not speculative.
Land speculators know that land has usefulness, for development, agriculture, or resources. Stock speculators know that stocks have value generated by work. Even if market value has some component that is speculative, always some component is due to intrinsic value.
Your assertion, that “value of publicly traded stocks is based upon the speculation that the value of the stock will rise or decline”, is refuted by the contradictions it itself implies.
An asset class whose value is purely speculative necessarily will collapse eventually. Generally in such cases the speculative value is generated through hype created by a nefarious actor who originally created the asset. Such is the nature of Ponzi schemes.
You seem to be confused by my comment if you think it is contradictory.
I think APPL is overvalued so Im selling its stock while someone else believes that the stock will go up during the time they plan to hold onto the stock thus while I think it will decline someone else perceives for their reasons it will increase.
Considering you literally claimed Marx LVT as if it were gospel maybe consider you aren’t going to have a good grasp on how stock markets work as that’s not something you’ve studied.
I have never said the entire value is speculative. I have said the price is based on perceived value of the company which us not 1:1 with productivity or actual reality in some cases (eg when the value is based on fraudulent information or reports a la Enron)
Speculation has been a relatively insignificant factor overall in the trade of stocks compared to the effects of their intrinsic value.
Stocks carry and accrue value due to the work of others than those who hold them.
The following was your response:
That simply is not true. The value of publicly traded stocks is based upon the speculation that the value of the stock will rise or decline which is often not related to the productivity of the workers.
The notion that all value cones from labor is fundamentally incorrect.
It only confuses the matter further that you now offer as clarification, “I have never said the entire value is speculative”.
I believe the observations I have given, more so than yours, are generally accurate.
The price of stocks is supported principally by the value generated by labor, with speculation necessarily only a secondary effect.
The belief that value will rise is generally an accurate belief, because growth occurs from the value generate by labor. Such growth is not related to speculation.
The bit you are overlooking is the conditional phrase “which is often not related to the productivity of workers”.
If I suspect APPL is going to gain value because I know China is going to announce that Chinese government workers can use Apple devices, then the gain in value will be based on the speculation that the stock will rise with these potential new sales. Thus the rise is not related to anything the workers are currently doing only on what they might possibly do in the future. That is speculative.
The above is not the same as the total value being purely speculative. Stocks kind of sort of sometimes represent real valuations but they never reflect the pure value of the labor alone. If that was the case there would be nothing to speculate on. We know exactly how many units Apple manufactures and how many sell. That is factored into evaluations as to if the stock price is accurate or not.
If I suspect APPL is going to gain value because… Chinese government workers can use Apple devices, then the gain in value will be based on the speculation… not related to anything the workers are currently doing…
The new sales would be of products whose creation occurs only through the labor of workers. Your are describing ordinary investment, not speculation.
Stocks kind of sort of sometimes represent real valuations but they never reflect the pure value of the labor alone.
The particular distinction is not relevant. Stocks gain value because of the labor of workers.
The labor of workers is the source of value, the single element without which stocks would never gain value. Speculation only occurs as secondary effect, a response to the intrinsic value generated by labor. If work stopped, if intrinsic value stopped growing, then speculation would also cease to have meaning.
An asset class inevitably crashes if traded speculatively but lacking any intrinsic value, as observed in Ponzi schemes.
Speculation has been a relatively insignificant factor overall in the trade of stocks compared to growth in their intrinsic value.
Stocks carry and accrue value due to the work of others than those who hold them.
That simply is not true. The value of publicly traded stocks is based upon the speculation that the value of the stock will rise or decline which is often not related to the productivity of the workers.
The notion that all value cones from labor is fundamentally incorrect. Value can be created by scarcity and speculation which has been demonstrated time and again. For example all those recent finds of lithium potential mines have impacted the price of lithium world wide despite not a single mine being approved or any work being done to obtain it. Just knowing it is there has created that change.
All theories of value are lacking in one way or another, but you’re definitely in the wrong community if you fundamentally disagree with the labor theory of value. Intrinsically, an item has value based on demand and usefulness. However, no items exist without labor. The value of an item is disconnected from the wage exchanged to create it, and this theft of value is what we call “profit”.
Speculation depends on a belief that value will rise in the future, which depends on, except in a few extreme cases of investors being scammed, the recognition of other value not speculative.
Land speculators know that land has usefulness, for development, agriculture, or resources. Stock speculators know that stocks have value generated by work. Even if market value has some component that is speculative, always some component is due to intrinsic value.
Your assertion, that “value of publicly traded stocks is based upon the speculation that the value of the stock will rise or decline”, is refuted by the contradictions it itself implies.
An asset class whose value is purely speculative necessarily will collapse eventually. Generally in such cases the speculative value is generated through hype created by a nefarious actor who originally created the asset. Such is the nature of Ponzi schemes.
You seem to be confused by my comment if you think it is contradictory.
I think APPL is overvalued so Im selling its stock while someone else believes that the stock will go up during the time they plan to hold onto the stock thus while I think it will decline someone else perceives for their reasons it will increase.
Considering you literally claimed Marx LVT as if it were gospel maybe consider you aren’t going to have a good grasp on how stock markets work as that’s not something you’ve studied.
A particular stock cannot be meaningfully considered overvalued if its entire value is speculative.
Such is the contradiction.
Perhaps you are not understanding speculation, confusing it with any investment purchase, any purchase based on expectation of rising value.
I have never said the entire value is speculative. I have said the price is based on perceived value of the company which us not 1:1 with productivity or actual reality in some cases (eg when the value is based on fraudulent information or reports a la Enron)
I observed as follows:
The following was your response:
It only confuses the matter further that you now offer as clarification, “I have never said the entire value is speculative”.
I believe the observations I have given, more so than yours, are generally accurate.
The price of stocks is supported principally by the value generated by labor, with speculation necessarily only a secondary effect.
The belief that value will rise is generally an accurate belief, because growth occurs from the value generate by labor. Such growth is not related to speculation.
The bit you are overlooking is the conditional phrase “which is often not related to the productivity of workers”.
If I suspect APPL is going to gain value because I know China is going to announce that Chinese government workers can use Apple devices, then the gain in value will be based on the speculation that the stock will rise with these potential new sales. Thus the rise is not related to anything the workers are currently doing only on what they might possibly do in the future. That is speculative.
The above is not the same as the total value being purely speculative. Stocks kind of sort of sometimes represent real valuations but they never reflect the pure value of the labor alone. If that was the case there would be nothing to speculate on. We know exactly how many units Apple manufactures and how many sell. That is factored into evaluations as to if the stock price is accurate or not.
The new sales would be of products whose creation occurs only through the labor of workers. Your are describing ordinary investment, not speculation.
The particular distinction is not relevant. Stocks gain value because of the labor of workers.
The labor of workers is the source of value, the single element without which stocks would never gain value. Speculation only occurs as secondary effect, a response to the intrinsic value generated by labor. If work stopped, if intrinsic value stopped growing, then speculation would also cease to have meaning.
An asset class inevitably crashes if traded speculatively but lacking any intrinsic value, as observed in Ponzi schemes.
My guy/gal/bie, have you heard of GameStop?
Yes.
Have you heard of other publicly traded companies that are not Gamestop?
I am sorry, but your use of the one example to negate my position is sloppy and ridiculous.
So you’re being purposefully obtuse. Wonderful. 🤦
No. I just have not made any claims that are negated by the events related to trading Gamestop.
Yes you have and I’ll leave you to go research what happened to it so you can see the truth for yourself.
Or you can refuse and continue to embarrass yourself peddling lies. Your choice.
Which statement have I made that is a “lie”?
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