I understand. I have quite a big station wagon car that eats just 5l/100km (47mpg, 4l or 59mpg in hilly areas) when I don’t charge, and if I do charge and just have a quick ride somewhere, it’s close to being free
I would love a series hybrid with a diesel engine. 95 percent of my driving is less then 10 miles, but the other is around 200 miles. I don’t even need much battery range most of the time.
Diesel is quite effective on its own, so there’s less sense for a car maker to make diesel hybrids. And diesel is less environment-friendly, so it would be like making vodka with vitamins, for people who want to be healthy :)
Diesel is most efficient at a specific rpm, which works perfect for a generator and I make biodiesel, so that’s why I would prefer diesel. I’m not entirely convinced that a diesel engine with good injectors and good compression is any less clean then a gas engine, it’s just not as obvious that the gas engine. Too many people only notice diesel when they’re stuck behind a semi truck with a worn engine.
Yes, I mean it’s more efficient compared to gasoline, and generally have better torque for starting
I’m not sure you watched the video as this is an in depth look into Toyota’s Syndergy drive system. He touches on plug-ins briefly, but the main focus is the replacement of a traditional transmission with the hybrid system allowing the ICE engine to use a more efficient thermal cycle spending more time in its efficiency zone.
I haven’t watched the video, but phevs work the same way (apart from possibility to charge them)
That depends on the brand. Other companies went other directions.
PHEVs that don’t recuperate/reuse energy as you go are super rare now
The problem is most plugin hybrid buyers don’t charge the cars at all. However, still use 60% less fuel than equivalent ICE.
I also do it like 20% of time, but inly because the car is at a public parking. If I had it in my driveway (one needs a driveway to have a car there), it would get close to 100% because plugging it in is 20 seconds
In reality you are paying to maintain the most expensive part of the vehicle twice. Because you have all the expenses of maintaining a gas drivetrain (air filters, spark plugs, fuel filters, transmission filters/fluid, timing belts, cooling system, and on and on. Seriously this is a long list) plus the cost of maintaining the EV drivetrain which is the battery.
Batteries lose their ability to hold a charge when they are fully charged and drained, which is everytime for a hybrid because:
- it uses the battery until it is depleted then switches to gas
- has a much smaller battery than an EV
So the batteries in hybrids degrade much faster than they do in EVs.
Hybrids have all the downsides of both ICE and EV drivetrains and are much more expensive to own than either.
is there a website where these bullshit talking points are listed? None of that is true.
Major cities use hybrids in taxi fleets and see >300,000 miles. Battery warranties are eight years.
Hybrid batteries do not get fully charged, nor drained.
also…sit down…Toyota hybrid drives use no belts of any kind. The batteries typically last 150,000 miles, but the fuel savings to replace them cover that cost every 2 years. Please don’t make shit up.
air filters, $30 every two years
spark plugs every 100,000 miles
fuel filters, 5-7 years
transmission filters/fluid 7-9 years
timing belts, nope
cooling system - every 7-9 years.
is there a website where these bullshit talking points are listed? None of that is true.
Talking points are something g used by the fossil fuel industry to keep people buying hybrids instead of EVs. This is the same industry that has a lot of people convinced that climate change is a hoax.
They are called “hybrid” vehicles because they have two drivetrains. Two drive trains are inherently more expensive than one drivetrain. You shouldn’t need a website to explain why.
Major cities use hybrids in taxi fleets and see >300,000 miles. Battery warranties are eight years.
Normal battery capacity loss is not covered by warranties since it is not a manufacturing flaw. So when your hybrid battery loses half its capacity before the warranty is up, it won’t be covered. I know this first hand from being an automotive technician and dealing with warranty administrators.
also…sit down…Toyota hybrid drives use no belts of any kind. The batteries typically last 150,000 miles, but the fuel savings to replace them cover that cost every 2 years. Please don’t make shit up.
You’re trying to cherry pick one example of a maintenance item I listed then cherry pick a model that it doesnt apply to to mislead readers. But if you want me to be specific I shared the list above to show others that “Toyota hybrid drives” do in fact use timing belts. Drive belts are also used to run accessories like Air Conditioning. So you’re the one making things up.
air filters, $30 every two years
spark plugs every 100,000 miles
fuel filters, 5-7 years
transmission filters/fluid 7-9 years
timing belts, nope
cooling system - every 7-9 years.
This is just getting started. Don’t forget: ignition coils, oil pan gaskets, water pumps and gaskets, exhaust manifolds and gaskets, mufflers, fuel injectors, thermostats and gaskets, emission system components, heater cores, transmission clutches, differential clutches, valve cover gaskets, rear main seals, front crank seals, and when you get done pretending that these items aren’t a big deal I have a lot more to add to the list, and this is just off the top of my head.
They allow people to reduce the amount of fuel required while still having a vehicle that is functional in areas that lack proper charging infrastructure. Every vehicle is a compromise of some sort.
The savings from reduced fuel use with a hybrid is much much smaller than the increase in cost of ownership from maintaining two drivetrains.
Hybrids have the most “compromises” by a long shot.
Additional maintenance costs are incredibly low over the expected life of most vehicles. The only additions are the battery and electric motors. The batteries should be no maintenance for over 100k miles, and the motors should be very low maintenance due to low complexity and few moving parts. Fuel savings are very high since many hybrids can double or more the fuel efficiency of a traditional ICE vehicle.
If you have any evidence to back up these claims, I’d love to see it. Even studies aimed at identifying overall carbon footprint show hybrids as better than traditional ICE. Though they are worse than EVs and much worse than pretty much any public transit option.
I drive a hybrid and it does not empty the battery and then fully recharge it, in fact, in the eight months I’ve driven it, as far as I can tell, the battery is yet to be fully charged.
It costs us about a quarter in fuel compared to the 15 year old car we replaced out of necessity.
We chose hybrid because the charging network is not up to the same density or level of competition as the petrol network and while the bulk of our travel is strictly local, we have family living 660 km apart, not to mention that despite having two power sources, it cost less than half of an electric vehicle which we could neither afford nor justify.
So far, the HEV is doing exactly what we asked of it and we’re happy with our choices.
I drive a hybrid and it does not empty the battery and then fully recharge it, in fact, in the eight months I’ve driven it, as far as I can tell, the battery is yet to be fully charged.
If you’re driving your hybrid for such short distances that you aren’t using the entire battery capacity then you could do the same with an EV that has 4-5 times more battery capacity. In doing so you would no longer have to pay for maintaining and fixing two drive trains.
If you are driving distances of 660km then you are using the entire hybrid battery capacity as there are none that exists with battery range that big. There are only EVs with battery range that big.
I worked as an automotive technician for a couple decades and used hybrids were consistently traded in for having lost their battery capacity even within the time that the battery still had warranty coverage because manufacturers wrote their warranties to not cover “normal degradation” of hybrid batteries. They do this because of how fast hybrid batteries degrade compared to EV batteries just due to the design limitations I mentioned in my previous comment.
Did you actually watch the video?
Yes
So you’ve seen how the car will almost immediately use any charge over 40% and charges when it dips below 30%? (Iirc, watched the video last night and don’t remember the exact numbers)
Yep, on a battery with 1.9kWh. For reference the smallest EV battery I know of is 20kWh. So it has 10% the capacity of the smallest EV battery which means it will cycle between charged and charging very often.
The battery chemistry used in the car in the video is Nickel-Metal Hydride. Ni-MH batteries may have some defects, but what matters is that they discharge themselves. When the battery is not in use, it will slowly deplete its power. If the remaining battery time is long enough, the battery may be permanently damaged. A rough estimate of the depletion of NiMH batteries is that 20% of the battery power will be depleted within the first 24 hours after charging, and 10% will be depleted every 30 days thereafter.
It is expected that the charge/discharge cycle of a standard Ni-MH battery is 2000 times
Now consider the facts:
- This battery will fully deplete when it is parked and this will lower the capacity
- Because of how small it is, this battery will cycle multiple times per trip which will lower the capacity also
- When the battery no longer holds enough charge to fulfill it’s purpose before the warranty has even expired the cost of replacement will not be covered because it is considered normal for them to fail so soon. So the owner will have to pay.
In my experience, the maintenance costs of a prius was not that much different from the maintenance costs of some other non-hybrid toyota.
That’s because ICE drivetrains have all the maintenance: oil changes, filters, fluid changes, spark plugs, exhaust system, transmission maintenance, differential maintenance, etc.
EV drivetrains don’t have any regular “maintenance costs” just the stuff you have to fix when it breaks and there are much much fewer parts in an EV to break.
Yes I understand, but the post said “Hybrids have all the downsides of both ICE and EV drivetrains and are much more expensive to own than either” and in my experience the hybrid car I owned was cheaper to own than the ICE car.
This means you haven’t had to pay to repair both drive trains yet. Because 2 drivetrains are more expensive than 1 drivetrain.
Based on what I see of other people’s priuses in this region, I expect the body will rust out before both drivetrains fail completely. So I am not too concerned about it.
I can confirm nonplug hybrid toyotas being very reliable and having very low maintenance, contrary to the imho uninformed idea above. The savings on fuel are quite serious too - we get 4-5 liters per 100km even without paying too much attention to driving style. The battery is also still going strong after 14 years, btw.
I’m not maintaining the battery, what are you talking about?
The battery is a “maintenance item” by manufacturers’ warranty standards. This means it has a predetermined lifespan and will need to be replaced during the expected lifespan of the vehicle and that replacement isn’t covered unless failure is caused by a manufacturing defect.
Within my plans of owning the car for several years, it is not a problem. And even if I wanted to “ride it to the ground”, years and years of saving on fuel would pay out and the battery price would be just a fraction of that.
The only point you write everywhere is basically “cars are depreciating”. Well, yeah, go tell the news to owners of turbo engines :)No, “cars are depreciating” is pretty far from the point I’ve been making.
The point I’m trying to make is that manufacturers mislead car buyers about hybrids for the same reason they don’t want to build to EVs. The additional repair costs of ICE and hybrid makes car manufacturers like Toyota a lot of money. EVs eliminate those cost.
The battery chemistry used in the car in the video is Nickel-Metal Hydride. Ni-MH batteries may have some defects, but what matters is that they discharge themselves. When the battery is not in use, it will slowly deplete its power. If the remaining battery time is long enough, the battery may be permanently damaged. A rough estimate of the depletion of NiMH batteries is that 20% of the battery power will be depleted within the first 24 hours after charging, and 10% will be depleted every 30 days thereafter. It is expected that the charge/discharge cycle of a standard Ni-MH battery is 2000 times
Now consider the facts:
- This battery will fully deplete when it is parked and this will lower the capacity
- Because of how small it is, this battery will cycle multiple times per trip which will lower the capacity also
- This battery will cycle 2000 times long before the warranty is up
- When the battery no longer holds enough charge to fulfill it’s purpose before the warranty has even expired the cost of replacement will not be covered because it is considered normal for them to fail so soon. So the owner will have to pay.
- you still have to pay to fix two drivetrains in a hybrid
@UsernameHere @toofpic that’s literally not what it does and you just revealed that you did not in fact watch the video *at all*, but what else can one expect from a lemmy.world user
That is literally how it works.
I revealed that YouTube influencers are not a good source of information especially when they are likely sponsored by Toyota and spreading misinformation to trick another generation of car buyers into buying the most expensive vehicles to maintain. Just so Toyota can profit while not transitioning to EVs that are more beneficial to customers.
It uses the battery until it gets to about 10%, then continues using it little by little. You break - it charges, so when you start, most of the times (but obv not each time, maybe 3 out of 5) the car will do it on electricity
I like how this factual comment is downvoted
Anybody know what “taking the green stairs” means at 9:13 in the video?
According to a person in the comments, it’s a reference to the steps of the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry.
