My hot take: people aren’t hard enough on Proton

The reason I mentioned “punish” is because that’s the sense I’m getting from the comments in this thread. A dislike of the UK. Not because of the joining standards people want for the UK. Obviously the UK should get the same joining terms as any other joining country. The “punish” attitude comes from comments in this thread, like the comment saying the UK hasn’t been relevant for 100 years. I could say the same thing about various EU countries, but I don’t want to, because I want good relations with EU countries.

Thankfully the EU itself seems to make reasonable comments on the UK these days, and I hope the UK and EU governments will find good ways to cooperate.

If you want to downvote me and tell me I’m a British exceptionalist bastard, go ahead.

I didn’t ask at all for the UK to be treated as “a special snowflake”. Obviously the EU can set whatever joining terms they want to set.

used to be relevant 100 years ago

I could say the same thing about various EU countries if I wanted to, but I don’t want to, because I like EU countries and I hope for good UK-EU relations.

I think EU politicians these days are saying completely sensible things about the UK, but I get the sense from some people online (not all, thankfully) that they just don’t like the UK. Personally I hope the UK and EU can both be positive and have a good relationship.

I’m not talking about British exceptionalism in any way. Clearly lots of people in this thread don’t like the UK. Fine. That doesn’t mean you should twist my words though.

Multiple EU countries haven’t adopted the euro and don’t show signs of adopting it. So clearly the EU already practises “flexibility” on the euro, to some degree.

If EU citizens decide they don’t want the UK in the EU, okay. I would like good UK-EU relations, but I can’t control what EU citizens think of the UK.

Yeah I thought it was something like that. So if the EU did offer membership terms to the UK, I wonder whether it would be “you have to join the euro within 5 years”, or whether it would be “you’re supposed to join the euro but you can postpone it forever like Sweden does”. I guess it’s unlikely that Denmark’s opt-out from the euro would be offered to any other country because it hasn’t been offered to recent countries.

True I used the words “if the EU just wants to punish the UK” but I guess I meant if hypothetically the EU wanted to punish the UK. The post I responded to said: “Fuck no. Full EU or stay out.”, and I suppose if the EU adopted words like that, maybe it seems a bit hostile. I definitely get the point about fairness among EU countries of course. If other EU countries had to sign up to certain terms (Schengen Area, adopting the euro) then yes it makes sense to present the same terms to the UK.

But I guess there has already been flexibility in the EU. They’re not compelling Poland and Sweden to adopt the euro, right? Even if those countries are technically supposed to adopt the euro. Also maybe it’s a matter of opinion whether Denmark’s permanent opt-out from the euro is fair. You could say “it’s fair because those are the terms Denmark agreed to”. Or you could say “it’s not fair because more recent EU joiners weren’t offered those same terms”.

If all EU members and potential members have the same joining terms then yes that seems fair. Anyway, the UK is surely not going to rejoin the EU anytime soon. It could happen one day, and maybe that would involve the UK adopting the euro, but before then I think gradually closer relations are probably likely.

I’m not in any way after “preferential treatment”. I pointed out that there are several EU countries already who, as far as I’m aware, have no plans to adopt the euro. It seems Denmark has a permanent opt-out, while Sweden and Poland are deliberately delaying euro adoption forever, until their people support euro adoption in referendums.

If we go out of our ways to let you in at any costs

I don’t believe you should.

Anyway, I think the EU has made sensible comments on relations with the UK recently. So I don’t think the EU currently wants to punish the UK, which is good. But I get the sense from some people (not from the EU itself) that they want to punish the UK. An attitude of “yeah fuck them, Europe-hating backstabbers”. It’s of course true that some Brits don’t like the EU, and they still support Brexit, but it’s also true that there are Brits who want closer relations with the EU, in a way that is agreeable to both sides, rather than one side dominating or punishing the other.

If you’re implying that Brits are all a bunch of Europe-hating backstabbers then I don’t think that’s true. I’m British and yes, some Brits don’t like the EU. Mainly older Brits. But a lot of Brits do like the EU.

According to YouGov, a British polling company, a majority of Brits have wanted to rejoin the EU for at least the last two and a half years, perhaps longer. Of course that level of support could change depending on the terms of rejoining the EU, but still.

Personally I think it would be good if the UK and EU forge closer relations in the coming years, but I don’t think rejoining the EU will be a realistic possibility for at least a few years, because eurosceptics in the UK continue to wield political power.

Why? Ireland isn’t in Schengen, and multiple EU countries aren’t using the euro, with no plans to adopt it (Poland, Sweden, Hungary, Czechia).

I’m British and I hope the UK and EU can have closer relations. But if the EU just wants to punish the UK for Brexit then that is going to go down badly with many Brits, so closer relations will become less likely.

I know Burnham recently said he wouldn’t hold an election in the next 12 months, but maybe the polling will persuade him otherwise. If the polling is good for Labour then surely it’s a good time to have an election. He could secure a more ambitious manifesto and keep Reform out of number 10 for at least five years.

But of course it would be a risk. In 2017, Theresa May called an election because the polling didn’t look too bad for the Tories, and then during the election campaign, the Tory vote declined while the Labour vote rose.

There’s always Ireland, they speak English and they’re still in the EU.

Not to be pedantic but I think that would be “Breenter”, just like how “reentry” has two Es

An alternative would be “Brejoin”

It’s like running with a bucket of water to a burning man and saying “I’ll douse you, but it’ll cost you 100 bucks”

I agree with you. Successful people often don’t want to recognise how much good luck they’ve had. Childhood privileges that others don’t have, job opportunities that others haven’t had, etc.

If we applied their thinking to every situation, we’d say something like “if a child in Gaza dies from an Israeli bomb, it’s the child’s fault, because they didn’t try hard enough to avoid the bomb”.

Even if a right-winger admits that children can have different circumstances, they might have an attitude of “once you hit 18, we’re all equal, and your effort is what determines your success in adult life”. But that’s not true. Some adults have a lot of privilege behind them, while others don’t. Some adults have health conditions which can be very difficult to manage in some cases, taking up time and money and effort, while other adults don’t have to worry as much about their health.

Google tells me that David Lammy said that in early 2019. Anyway, I think he was right about this bit:

Leaving the EU will not free us from the injustices of global capitalism, it will make us subordinate to Trump’s US.

Sure it would be better if America was doing more to support Ukraine. But I think it’s good news that they are at least allowing Ukraine to have these Patriots, since they are important for Ukraine.

I’m not trying to give too much credit to the US of course. Trump’s administration is terrible. I’m just saying it could have been worse, if the US refused to allow Ukraine to have any Patriots.

their Welsh leader is still in prison for taking money from the Russians. Somehow though, their popularity has not diminished as much as it should have

Reform supporters believe that the idea of Russia being a threat has been made up by the liberal media to distract everybody from immigration. I wish I was kidding.

You could argue it’s a deal that some Brits voted for, but definitely not all Brits of course.

Only 51.89% of those who voted in the Brexit referendum in 2016 voted for Brexit.

In 2019 there was a general election, and during that election campaign, Boris Johnson promised to “get Brexit done”, but only 43.6% of voters in that election voted for Johnson’s party, the Conservatives. So a majority of voters in that election voted against the Conservatives.

It would have been possible to leave the EU while staying in the single market and/or customs union, but the Conservatives chose a particularly hard version of Brexit, cutting more ties than necessary with the EU.

Some Brexiteers suggested that Brexit would be a softer affair, in the lead up to the referendum.

Tory peer Daniel Hannan (formerly an MEP) said in 2015: “absolutely nobody is talking about threatening our place in the single market”. And yet we did leave the single market, as part of the hard Brexit pursued by the Tories.

But yes I suppose other leading Brexiteers didn’t make details explicit. Perhaps, after the Brexit referendum, we should have had a second referendum to determine what shape Brexit should take. We could have remained in the single market for many industries (similar to Norway/Switzerland/Iceland) or the customs union (similar to Turkey), or both.

Brexiteers are famously supportive of “democracy” so they shouldn’t have had any objections to a second referendum.

I’m just going to leave this here.