• 2 Posts
  • 352 Comments
Joined 2 years ago
cake
Cake day: July 7th, 2023

help-circle











  • I completely agree it is problematic if not impossible if your goal is to use some sort of universal logic to persuade others that you are right and they are wrong. I don’t have a solution for that and as far as I can tell only religions claim to have an answer which is basically “our god is right and says X is right and Y is wrong.”

    I’m not sure I would go so far as to say that means you are not “legitimate” for opposing harm to others. The question that springs to mind is, who gets to decide what is objectively legitimate? The question sort of presupposes there is some higher authority which can be appealed to (a god, etc). If you aren’t basing your reasoning in religion/gods then I don’t see how you can logically derive morality without relying on your personal beliefs. I’d love to see someone show me how they think morality can be objective without a religious premise.


  • This is longer than I intended, sorry.

    Tl;dr: Morality is a relative thing and cannot be externally deduced from pure logic. Your personal values will necessarily inform your moral beliefs.

    Others have addressed that there are very real social/self-preservation reasons to not harm others but I will address the morality side which is what I think you were asking about.

    I’ve heard this sort of question framed more generally as part of the “is/ought” logical dilemma. Morality can sort of be summarized as “ought” statements regarding our behavior. For example: We should (ought to) protect children from harm. That’s a moral statement but where is the justification for it?

    The basic idea of the is/ought dilemma is that you cannot logically derive “ought” statements from “is” statements. Said differently: you cannot derive a moral statement of “one ought to do X” from premises that simply define “this thing is A.”

    • So I can say that children are wonderful, creative, and beautiful (This is an “is” statement which you might agree with).
    • Children are innocent (“is”).
    • Neither of these statements then logically implies that we should never do harm to children (An “ought” statement). I would need to add another premise “We ought to protect the innocent” for it to be a logical conclusion.

    But then where did “We ought to protect the innocent” come from? If you try to justify it you will find that you will have to predicate it on another “we ought” sort of statement, you never get back to just stating something “is” as the sole basis of the moral conclusion.

    That’s a bit long winded but the general idea is that the basis of morality is not something I think you can logically deduce from statements of fact. Religions often try to bypass this by saying “well god is the source of morality so if he says something is wrong that makes it objectively wrong.” This is a gigantic stipulation to agree to however and without it, I don’t think logic alone can be used to derive morality.

    For example I believe that life evolved over millions of years and is incredibly fragile (is statement). I also think that life is special and beautiful. Someone once said: “We are star stuff. We are the universe made manifest, trying to figure itself out.” That statement resonates with my world view. Because I personally value life and think it is special, it makes sense to me that we ought to do things to protect life - don’t harm others, try to assist those in need, etc. But even that is more of a guiding priciniple and not a moral absolute. If someone was committing violence against my child I would would harm them if necessary to stop them.

    Furthermore, I recognize that not everyone even accepts my “is” statements about life being special and beautiful, and even that statement is insufficient to come up with an absolute moral position, as I just gave an example of. That’s part of the reason societies will make laws to enforce punishment for behavior that harms others - not everyone agrees on morality or its basis.

    So why shouldn’t we hurt others? Look closely at your core beliefs and you’ll find the answer (or maybe you won’t).


  • I first noticed this a few years back when I started to see “The Empire Did Nothing Wrong” on bumper stickers. Sure it seemed like a joke at the time but I was confused that so many people thought this was a statement worth putting on their vehicle. I mean, pretty early on in the OT, Darth Vader uses the Death Star to murder an entire planet so surely no one was serious, right?

    Whoooo boy have I learned a lot about my neighbors’ values since then.


  • And the post implies that most men do.”

    I don’t agree this is the implication. The comic is juxtaposing how men might see a bunch of single women as an opportunity whereas women might see a bunch of single men as a threat. It doesn’t have to be all or even most men in that group for the threat to be real.

    Also how is the data not relevant? The data is literally quantifying the problem this comic is addressing: this is a problem that disproportionately victimizes women and the perpetrators are often men, by a large margin. That is literally the basis for why the woman is unsettled whereas the man is relatively carefree.