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how about we all agree that the best system is american units with metric prefixes. After all it is obvious that it takes an hours to drive 318 kilofeet
What’s that in centimiles?
6,000 cm
See? This is why I like our system the best. It just got those nice even numbers. 318 kf = 6000 cm, easy peasy.
Sorry did the math wrong its 100,000,000 cm
How much is that in football fields?
american or european?
That makes more sense. I knew it was over 9000!
do you want d&D memes because this is how you get D&D memes
I love the smell of Kilofeet in the morning 😂
Technically the metric system is “the preferred system of weights and measures for United States trade and commerce” as per the Metric Conversion Act of 1975.
You’re just also allowed to use lbs and feet and stuff and most people do.
The versions of imperial measurements the US uses are even defined in terms of metric units, so they’re less a completely separate measurement system these days and more just a weird facade on top of metric, even.
Screw that, we’ll make them use Metric. BY FORCE!
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Yep, that’s what Napoleon did…
How do you plan to do that when each of us is issued an assault rifle at birth and our military is 20x bigger than the next closest military? In other words, bring it on!
Regan also never bothered to reinstate Imperial standards at the bureau of weights and measures (because it would have cost a small fortune). So our units are officially defined by the their metric counterpart. Legally speaking an inch is 2.54 centimeters.
And in the sciences and drug dealing and the military, we use metric exclusively.
But for some idiotic reason, construction engineers often use imperial units and I have no idea why. Like buildings are built in pounds and feet and stuff, with half inch bolts and 2x4 (ish) lumber and half inch plywood. It’s idiotic.
I don’t generally defend imperial, but feet and inches are actually really useful in construction. Base 12 is easily divisible by 2, 4, and 3. You often need to divide architectural elements in thirds.
As a former structural engineer who lived on a Jobber 5 all day, that’s still pretty niche overall. Easier because it’s what your used to maybe, but outweighed by situations where it’s not. Try doing trig with fractions and then tell me imperial is better.
Does it matter whether you punch 3/8 or .375 into a calculator? Don’t tell me you calculate stuff by hand…
Trig is literally the math where you start dividing a circle in fractions and doing the math in base 360.
What the hell are you talking about?
I’m talking about trig using feet and inches. You know, rise, run, slope… Have you ever used trig outside of school? I don’t understand what you’re confused about.
right now i use it for waves and reflections. that’s all fractions and degrees. before it was machining and tbh for me that was faster to go to the book for the answers than calculate everything out.
truly trigonometry is a land of contrasts.
That might be somewhat useful if it was consistently applied, which it is not.
And it’s maybe useful for fractions, but how many feet are in a mile again? 5280? A square yard is what now… 1296 square inches?! Who the fuck is supposed to memorize all that?
What’s a 1/4 square yard in square inches?
That’s not easy, that’s putting the mental into mental arithmetic.
Again people making me defend imperial, I think metric is better.
I see this argument all the time, converting between these units is hard cause the numbers are weird. You have to stop thinking about imperial as a system, it’s not. No one should convert miles to feet, they are not intended to measure on the same scale.
None of the conversions are easy because imperial is just a random collection of units that were being used to measure different things.
Yeah, no one should be able to make a quick sanity check for things that span multiple powers.
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“Hey Bob, we have 5000 of those 78 ft rails, that enough for the 100 mile railroad?”
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“What do I look like, a fucking calculator?”
vs
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“Hallo Heinz, how mäny hecto-liter do ve kneed für 1000 0.5l bottles of Bier?”
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“20, boss.”
The amount of people going completely out of their way to die on their little cubic ft hill actually defending they’re incapable of easily and consistenly calculating units is just utterly ridiculous. “Nobody should be doing this!!!1!”
No, wait, the people in here telling people that “dozenal” is superior, but not realizing they’re not using a “dozenal” system at all, they’re just counting to twelve in decimal. Those are also making me question whether humans actually went to the moon…
Keep putting those words in my mouth. I’m not dieing on any hill, just trying to provide some context about why imperial is so weird. I still think metric is better.
You seem really upset about something that really doesn’t matter that much, are you okay?
Did I mention you specifically when I said „the amount of people…“? See.
And if it doesn’t matter much to you, why do you keep commenting? Nobody’s „making“ you defend anything. Are you okay?
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Silly Americans, you could be measuring your winnies in GIGAMETERS and yet decide to keep using the kings thumb as a reference for it*
Me with a 1.0x10^-11 GIGAMETER weenie: 😎
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Man I love this comic. Glad to see it on Lemmy!
One of his books explains it with 3 fingers on each hand and 2 toes on each foot - so a base-10 system makes vague sense for those beings.
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It’s not that a system based on base 6 would be strange. That’d be a logical system, too. Just as any other system that consistently uses a particular base.
However, a system that uses numbers of base whatever but then proceeds to jump from one unit to the next one in completely arbitrarily sized steps such as 3; 22; 10; 8; 3 is illogical in any base.
Mostly because it’s very easy to make calculation on base 10. If i ask you to tell me how many millimeters are in 5.7 meters you could probably reply easily without a calculator. You probably wouldn’t do it as easily if it wasn’t base 10
We define 1000 mm as one meter as we are base 10 centric. If we live in a base 8 world, we would have define 8x8x8 mm as one metre and the answer to 5.7 m base 8 would be 5700mm base 8 too
this is one of the most confidently incorrect answers ive ever read. well done!
Because it’s intuitive. Calculating orders of magnitude is literally just a matter adding or removing significant digits.
That’s literally the same way with any other base. We just defined orders of magnitudes to be multiples of 10 because we use base 10. We could just as well have used other multiples.
Those aliens have 3 fingers. A decimal system to them is like a system based on 14, 196, 2744, 38416, … would be like to us - probably worse than US Customary
14, 196, 2744, 38416, … would be like to us - probably worse than US Customary
I mean if they had a base 14 numerical system then a base 14 measurement system would make perfect sense.
Contrary to that, the US does use a decimal system for numbers while the various units in the US customary system do not have any common base.humans have used base 8 count the gaps between your fingers, base 12 count the joints on 4 fingers with your thumb, and base 26 by using lots of body parts.
They have 3 fingers on each hand and 2 toes on each foot. 10 total.
There’s no good way to predict what base they’d actually use for their numbers, but there’s definitely nothing about 10 that makes it an obvious choice for an inter-species standard line the comic implies.
3, 6 or 12 would be overwhelmingly likely though, inferring from all documented human language families
No, the problem with the imperial system is not what number it’s based on. The problem is that it’s not based on any number. A coherent base 14 system would be easier to use than the madness that is imperial.
Base 12 is way more logical than base 10, I bet aliens would think we’re stupid for counting in base 10 just because we have 10 fingers, my opinion on this is infallible fight me
Base 12 is as arbitrary as base 10 and we don’t know what aliens would think nor should we care. Base 16 makes more sense because it is 2x2x2x2 instead of 2x2x3
A base based on 2^x makes the most sense since it’s easy to do conversions between bases that match that template. So base 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, etc. The limit would just be how many symbols can be easily remembered and instantly recognizable (need 32 symbols for base 32).
why is 12 better
12 is more divisible than 10. 10 can only be cut into 5’s and 2’s, 12 has 2, 3, 4, and 6.
Similar reason why 360 deg is a full circle and time is kept in 12s and 60s.
but 10 exponentially speaking is more sound 10 100 1000 10000 100000 etc
That’s incorrect. Any base system has the same property. For base 12, we would just have two extra digits, and we would be counting powers of 12 instead of powers of 10. Let’s say those extra digits are X for ten and Y for 11. We would write numbers like so (starting with zero and incrementing by one): 0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, X, Y, 10, 11, 12, …, 18, 19, 1X, 1Y, 20, 21, …, 29, 2X, 2Y, 30, …
For example, in base 10, a number 265 means we have 10² twice and 10¹ six times and 10⁰ five times (100 + 100 + 10 + 10 + 10 + 10 + 10 + 10 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1).
Same number in base 12 has 12² once and 12¹ ten times and 12⁰ once (144 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 12 + 1).
A “round” four-digit number in base ten is written as 1000 (written in base twelve as 6Y4). If we subtract one, we get a three-digit string of nines (highest single digit): 1000 - 1 = 999 (written in base twelve as 6Y3).
A “round” four-digit number in base twelve is written as 1000 (written in base ten as 1728). If we subtract one, we get a three-digit string of Ys (highest single digit): 1000 - 1 = YYY (written in base ten as 1727).
I hope this shows you how there’s symmetry between the bases and there is nothing special about base 10 other than we’re familiar with it. If we were familiar with base 12, the “round” numbers for us would be (writing in base 10 here): 12, 144, 1728, … which we would be writing as 10, 100, 1000, …
Works with base 12 too, look: 10 100 1000 10000 100000 etc.
The way base 12 would work is that you’d add 2 characters and you would write “12” as 10. Which looks really confusing because we’re all used to base 10. If you were then to do 1010 in base 12 (so in base10 that would be 1212) you’d get 100 (144 in base10) so this still stands whatever base you use.
True! And that’s probably why we use base 10, also we have 10 fingers. But that’s usually the argument for base 12. I think we do ok using it in just certain cases, like time and inches.
Actually this works fine in base 12 too! See my other comment for a more in-depth explanationz
The Egyptians and Babylonians counted in base 12. They did so by counting each section of the fingers on one hand with their thumb (4 fingers, 3 sections each = 12).
From what I understand they used base 60. They counted each finger section on one hand with each of the fingers on the other (5x12)
I have noticed old people in India who are used to counting like that as well.
Or heximal/senary. Arguably imperial is already duodecimal/hexadecimal/sexagesimal for the fractional parts.
Why use decimals when reducing fractions is SO EASY
I’m just gonna drop this here: https://iquilezles.org/articles/floatingbar/
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I feel like this is my wheel house.
When I find a wood working video on YouTube from the states it blows my mind how anyone can not just adopt metric “This is 5” 4/57 and we need to cut it to 5” 5/45 and a half” bzzzzzzz.
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I may be biased, but I think it kinda makes sense. All the fractions are really just powers of two:
One half
One quarter
One eighth
One sixteenth
One thirtysecond
etc.Oh yeah, totally makes more sense to say “it’s 3/64ths of an inch” than “it’s 2 millimeters.” Completely reasonable.
So reasonable, in fact, that in most manufacturing that still uses imperial measurements they long ago abandoned fractions and moved to decimal inches.
Which leads to unholy abominations such as the wood shop sending over “cut off 3/64ths” and the metal shop cutting off 0.046875".
There are so many baseless radixals in the comments.
Every time anyone talks about this, I feel obligated to inform them: there’s also a counting system that’s not based on ten, and it’s way superior. Do people know about it? Most don’t. The Wikipedia page stupidly calls it the “ten-plus-two” system, and there have been heated arguments there with the dumbasses who refuse to change it to the logical name. That’s how stupidly-biased people are towards the ten-based system.
You make a “metric” measurement system based on 12-based counting and then everyone wins. Everyone. It’ll never happen of course.
You’re not really helping your case by omitting the real name (but complaining about the Wikipedia name) and sharing why it’s superior.
I loosely tried to find it and didn’t find anything explicitly named 10+2 or “ten-plus-two”.
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Wikipedia seems to be pretty clear about the naming. You must be fun at parties!
Sumerians picked base 60, which is the minimum common multiple of “1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6”, which is far superior to either 10 (MCM of only “1, 2, 5”), or 12 (MCM of “1, 2, 3, 4”).
But the average people had trouble counting to 60, so they used their fingers… which happen to be 10, which happens to be 1/6 of 60… and they called it “good enough”.
We still use base 60 for minutes and seconds, base 6*60 (360) for angular degrees, and base 2*12 (24) for hours… which is at least something.
Base 60 isn’t superior or even reasonable for human mathematical operations. It’s not like 5 is as important of a number as 6. If we all had 6 fingers, 5 would be treated in the same way that 7 is.
Base 60 is both superior and reasonable: it’s easily divisible by the first 6 integers. There is a reason we still use it all the time (pun intended).
Base 420 would be the next one, if human brains didn’t struggle with holding 7 separate items at once in short term operative memory.
420 lol [email protected]
I don’t think you understand. You want a small base if you want to do everyday human operations. I guess it might be hard for a lot of people to comprehend because you’re so used to thinking in tens, that you don’t realize that if you stopped dividing 60 by 10 automatically, “60” would not be a digestible base number.
Furthermore, “using 60 a lot” is not the same as counting base-60. Base-60 means there is no ten to fall back on. 60 would be your “small group” number, and that would be that.
Let’s say I counted: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y 10 11 12 13…
2*u=10, u0/3=a0, A/7=5
No need to “divide by 10”, and we even have enough symbols already. All it would take is getting used to… just like what we did for years over and over in primary.
For “everyday human operations” you can just count: 0 5 a f k p u A F K P U 10… or 0 6 c i o u B H N T 10… or 0 a k u A K U 10… or 0 c o B N 10… or 0 f K 10… and so on. Notice how division by any multiple of 2, 3, 5, becomes much easier:
1/2=0.u, 1/3=0.f, 1/4=0.k, 1/5=0.c, 1/60=0.0a
Look at what happens with fractions:
2/3=0.K, 3/5=0.B, 5/12=0.p
-facepalm-
“Not learning your base 60 division tables… paddle to the face”
Going back all the way to your original comment. Counting to 60 is not the same as counting base-60, unlike this comment and a ton of your replies. 60 minutes in an hour isn’t base-60 counting. Unless you write one sixty as “10” and two sixties as “20”, you are not counting base-60. Because the tens digit means one group— no matter the size— and the zero after it means none extra. For the love of god please read a book.
I’ll just leave this here: https://youtu.be/iJymKowx8cY
TLDW: metric is better because all the different kinds of units were designed to work together.
Where as imperial units developed organically, within specific trades/use cases. They’re not all supposed to work together.
I use imperial because that’s what I was raised with, but I recognize metric is better in many ways. My only gripe with metric is the gap in units between Centimeters and Meters. A foot is convenient size for most things.
There are some places that do use a base 12 number system.
Again, I wasn’t defending it, just explaining it.
It’s not entirely without logic. Base 12 is actually better that base 10 for a start, as it allows for a lot more fractions that have clean representations, so 12 inches in a foot is fine. The next thing is that people seem to think we have all of these strange units with strange conversions, when in reality we have 3 units for short distances, and then a seperate unit for long distances. 12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, and then nobody cares how long a mile is in terms of feet or yards. Once you realize that the mile is not even really part of the same measuring system as inches, feet and yards, the weird conversion makes sense. We exclusively use miles to talk about long distances above 0.1 miles, and then yards are used below 500 yards (which has an overlap of 324 yards). And then for the logic, it is entirely based on actual human scale shit. A foot is called a foot because it is roughly the size of your foot. A yard is approximately how long one stride is. Saying something is 100 yards away means it is approximate 100 steps away. Obviously there will be a bit of variance for how accurate that will be for any given person (and children will have to base it off of an adult obviously), but because it is based more on human things it is more useful for measuring human scale things. It was designed to not use decimals or large numbers because humans don’t comprehend those very well.
Yes very logical, much intuitive
