Wtf are these crackheads doing? EV’s are insanely simple machines compared to combustion ones. How could you ever fuck your production cost so much as to get losses like that. This feels like a manufactured failure to get bailed out or to stir public opinion on the whole china EV situation.
How could you ever fuck your production cost so much as to get losses like that.
It’s because there is a lot of fixed cost being divided into a relatively small number of units. For instance “Ford Blue” is Ford’s ICE division and in Q1 it moved about 626,000 units while “Ford Model e” is Ford’s EV division and it only moved about 10,000 units in Q1. Source.
So if Ford Blue spends a Billion dollars that’s a per vehicle cost of $1,597. If Ford Model e spends a Billion dollars its a per vehicle cost of $100,000.
So what would cost a Billion dollar? Well, how about 3 new battery factories plus an EV assembly factory that cost something like 7 Billion dollars?
That’s not nearly all of it either. In May of 2021 Ford said that would spend something like 30 Billion by 2025 (that’s next year!) to increase EV production.
So yeah, Ford has spent the GDP of some small countries shifting to EV production and when you divide those very large sums into a very small number of vehicles you get upside down real quick.
Agreed, and the proper response here is to increase volumes to amortize the costs across more units, not cut back production.
Unless your goal is to take a loss and write off your taxes for the construction costs of the new factories, only to increase production next year.
I think the problem for Ford is that they bet on economic improvements that didn’t manifest. Both their current EVs are “premium” models, and that market is tapped, especially with new car loans costing 8%, and people can’t afford housing and groceries and a car payment.
Lightly used MachEs sell well at $25k. Which tells you that there is a price point for a new Focus electric. F150s are work trucks, not status vehicles, so more XL trims and fewer platinums, or better yet electric mavericks and rangers.
They should make a Lincoln MK Lightning if they want the truck to stay premium, but aim Fords to the working class like always and price them accordingly.
I dont think it would be fair to call that a loss per vehicle then. When they built their first vehicles long long ago they also mustve been in the red for a while. Thats called “investing in company infrastructure” and not “selling at a loss”.
The money is paid, the loss of money is over. Surely they are making a per vehicle profit already and it will just take some time to go overall positive for their investment.
I dont think it would be fair to call that a loss per vehicle then.
It’s common to break down the cost of Fixed Asset Investment to per unit produced by the investment. I won’t comment on whether it’s “fair” or not but it is common and it’s how the article arrived at this eye popping “loss per vehicle” number.
This is why the incremental cost of a unit are often a better measure for longer term profitability and decision making than the unit average cost, especially when you aren’t factoring in the market size and ability to repurpose sunk costs in that unit average cost.
Exactly, which is where the term “economies of scale” comes from.
More units = more economy
Ok i guess thats how it is, still weird because you rarely see a per product profit value in this sort of format. Seems like they enjoy crying over losses and staying silent over profits.
Seems like they enjoy crying over losses and staying silent over profits.
It’s not in the actual report put out by Ford. It’s a creation of the Journalist who wrote the article. So you are unhappy with Julian van der Merwe, the author of the article.
Lol, the dude is literally a neck beard.
Cowboy Bebop rocks tho
That’s how accounting works. You don’t get to change the federally mandated accounting practices.
It’s called GAAP
it’s* a per-vehicle cost
Ford has been mismanaged and only kept alive through BS, anticonsumer protectionist policies for decades at this point. It’s my opinion that they genuinely don’t even know how to run a successful business because “going under” hasn’t been a real concern for them for longer than most of the executives have been at the company.
TOO BIG TO FAIL
What crack are you on? Ford makes money hand over foot making the best trucks for a while now. That’s why they are alive despite a few (and I believe you’re exaggerating) management missteps.
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This dude is just a Toyota fanboy. He literally said there is no reason to ever buy any other vehicle than a Toyota.
He also said that the manual Tacoma is more fuel efficient than the hybrid Maverick, so he’s not the sharpest tool in the shed.
Toyota fanboy
I honestly hate a lot of Toyotas and Japanese cars in general. Very sterile, boring, but their reliability and repairability is just a known fact, which is why I would only recommend the brand to people who only need a car as an appliance. I am an unapologetic fanboy of vintage Volvos though.
He literally said there is no reason to ever buy any other vehicle than a Toyota.
I said that I’d never recommend anything maker other than Toyota for a new car buyer, which I wouldn’t. There are no other makers right now with as strong of offerings as Toyota left. Some makers have competitive models, but no brand has as solid of a reputation.
Also wrong about the second part, I said that the stick Tacoma was more fuel efficient than the automatic, which I’ll admit is not the case anymore
Japanese cars were great in the 1990s, and phenomenal in the '80s, but now not so much. American automotive manufacturers have generally cut up with Japanese automakers in technology and reliability. Can be a lot more exciting too.
Ford sold 200,000 pickup trucks in Q1 2024 while Toyota sold 50,000 so those links alone do not tell the whole story. Those recalls are relatively small compared to Ford’s market.
Also, Fords are typically easier and cheaper to buy and there are more service centers for them. This is also related to them being the most popular fleet vehicle. Don’t get me wrong, I’d love to have a Toyota, but there’s a reason why you pay more for the “Toyota tax”.
Nobody ever said consumers were rational!
My neighbor purchased a used Toyota Tacoma a couple of years ago for $20,000. A 1999 model year.
Everyone has recalls when you are selling millions. Ford has average reliability while being the most capable truck and having the features the owners buy. The f150 has the best interior, infotainment, and has the best ride. It’s the second best hauler only beaten by the ram.New car owners have warranties and fin not care about most recalls. They drop off the car, get a free rental, and come back the next day in most cases.
If you’ve ever even purchased a new vehicle, much less a new truck, you clearly are an edge case in how you rate trucks and have no clue what is going on in the head of most potential truck buyers.
Ford has average reliability
best truck on the market
Well which one is it? I’ve literally only seen suburban LARPers who can’t even thread a ratchet strap buy or defend Ford trucks. I’ve spent decades of my life on construction job sites. You wanna know how to separate the serious career guys from the burnout cons? The smart ones are driving paid off Toyotas and the idiots have light duty domestics.
most potential truck buyers
Most potential truck buyers are car buyers who get upsold on the lot.
👌👍
You clearly know nothing of the market and buyers nor a willingness to understand. You just want to lecture buyers who have different priorities and needs and don’t religiously follow /r/personalfiances buy a used Toyota take.
You fundamentally have misunderstood why Ford is successful, run your mouth about it, and then argued that the buyers are idiots. 👏👏👏
Ah, yes, the American consumer. Famous for their great financial judgment and ability to live within their means.
You fundamentally have misunderstood why Ford is successful
Protectionist policies, corporate lobbying, hostage market, historical opposition to union labor, and outsourcing production to Mexico and China? I understand those reasons well.
You type like you’re from Twitter (currently X) and I recommend you go back.
Try towing a 13,000 pound trailer across the country with a Taco.
I’ll wait.
This is why the news is fixated on banning Chinese cars, because our companies suck
Somewhat Ironically, the tariff increase against Chinese cars is mostly for political show. There are virtually no Chinese cars being sold in the US, and those that are sold are not chinese brands but American brands (e.g. Buick, Lincoln) manufactured in China. The reason there are no Chinese brands on the market is that the existing 25% tariff is already enough to make it very unattractive.
However Biden is hoping to win the support of United Auto Workers and the like, who are all afraid of losing their jobs to Chinese workers getting paid a tenth of what they make or w/e. Trump has been using the same talking points, suggesting tariffs on Chinese cars built in Mexico (I don’t think that’s a real thing at this point, just something that could happen). It’s all political theater.
I bet there’s some magical tax system in play here.
1 billion in imaginary r&d costs split over 1 years sales.
This was the whole point of restructuring. Gaming our tax and legal system to maximize profits. Put all the losses into your LLC.
It’s basically the entire year cost divided by cars sold or something like that yes.
It’s a terrible way to do it.
For example, pre pandemic, Ford was actually just gross margin positive on the sale of the Mach E, which was quite impressive, but it was overall a loss due to all the R&D.
This is the same attack people used against Tesla early on as well. Since the Model S, Tesla was nearly always gross margin positive on their vehicles, but because of the massive R&D were still in the red.
At any moment, Tesla could have dramatically slowed growth and been profitable sooner, but you don’t grow and expand that way, so it was years of Tesla loses $X per car.
It was terrible then, it’s terrible now, it’ll always be terrible.
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What do you mean Pre Pandemic Mach E? Vehicle released December 2020 as a 21 model year.
Sorry my bad then, before the supply chain got Uber fucked by the pandemic.
It was originally gross margin positive. Then the supply chains for fucked and it was no longer gross margin positive.
Then the price cuts started happening after the supply chains resolved and it couldn’t get back there for awhile.
I don’t know if it is or isn’t GM positive today.
What the heck are they doing wrong? If they sell an EV for 70k and still make a 130k loss on it, what are they doing to make the production cost 200k in the first place?
Buying and running the tools it takes to make the EV, running the factories and training the workers are all very expensive. So the losses implies they projected a LOT higher volume than they’re currently producing so all the expensive equipment sitting idle is spread over the smaller volume of cars. These are called NRE (non-recoverable expenses).
So the losses are not production losses, but a complete failure in the projection? OK, quite possible.
The problem they have is they’re trying to sell it for 200k. Maybe they didn’t try and sell it to so much money they’d actually make money paradoxically.
It’s expensive moving to the next version of the product that the consumer demands?
Running an innovative business is not all fields of flowers and line-go-up record profit margins?
Who could possibly have guessed other than literally every textbook on economics, finance, innovation or business accounting?
/s
Ford needs to put on it’s big boy pants and figure this out. There’s only so much gas in the ground.
put on its* big-boy pants
Relevant user name.
I do English good. But my keyboard doesn’t two well.
Its no tits
Ok how about I don’t buy one then and they can just give me $120k instead. Win-win.
That’s what happens when you have to be a loss-leader to secure your position in the market. Even when the government steps in to protect you you still claim it’s a loss even though you’ve been crowned leader.
Is Ford the leader in the EV market?
In reality no, they are not.
I know a few people that work in a Ford plant. Just a week ago, they shut down to retool the place for electric vehicles. Initially expected to take eight months, it’s now about two years.
They might have cancelled some orders from a specific supplier, but it’s not like Ford is turning away from EVs as a whole.
Ford will follow Toyota and make PHEV a good portion of their lineup.
The PHEV F150 and Maverick are perfect trucks. 80 miles will make sure you rarely use gas, and having 425bhp + not having to rely on charging stations will eliminate range anxiety.
PHEVs are kind of pointless because most consumers buying them tend to not actually flip to the electric mode during low-use periods, making the hybridized nature of the vehicle functionally useless.
Maybe I’m not like most consumers but my ford phev is on electric 80-90% of the miles I’ve driven on it.
Then again, I heard from a family member. With a 4xe that the dealer had to convince them to plug it in when the low battery for long periods of time was causing problems.
Why the hell not? I drive a LOT, about 100 miles a day on average. I fill up my volt with gas once every 3 or 4 months. I save SO MUCH MONEY.
People not using the plug in part are just stupid (or don’t have access to chargers, in which case why get a PHEV?)
It’s a lack of awareness and training. People buying PHEV’s have the right mindset, they want to be more efficient and helpful to the planet, but at the same time nobody is teaching them how to use the car effectively.
It’s not rocket science. Plug the car in whenever possible. Done.
PHEVs are also more expensive to manufacturer than a BEV, long term. Particularly once the huge new battery factories start hitting economies of scale.
Even if used “properly”, plug-in hybrids are a bad idea:
They are more complex than either a pure ICE or electric vehicle would be.
When used properly, the ICE plug-in will only activate during high load phases, e.g. highway travel. However, the engine at that point will be effectively cold-starting. Not only is thus the least efficient phase of generating energy from fuel, it also means the engine oil is not warm and fluid yet. This necessitates more expensive, less durable low viscosity engine oil. Also, engines deteriorate much quicker during irregular usage, especially during cold starts.
There’s really no upside except getting government subsidies whenever the lobbies manage to get their Plugin-Hybrid qualified for it.
If you have a PHEV with a range of 40 miles on battery alone, you will hardly ever use the gas engine at all.
Absolutely true, but that still does not make phev the universal solution to climate friendly transportation :) .
It’s more of an awkward stop gap measure. It’s expensive and complex to make and maintain (!) and only really profitable for manufacturers due to subsidies as well.
I’m just disagreeing with the “difficult to maintain because reasons” bit. You could easily go 300,000 miles on a PHEV with regular maintenance.
Huh? Auto stopstart is very common.
Also starting from stopped is the worst for efficiency, as ICE cars produce optimally / most efficiently at a particular rpm
Edit Common use patterns are to supplement start stop with the electric motor, to get the Gas motor closer to it’s ideal rpm before it does work.
I wasn’t talking about auto stop/start at all?
It also has no bearing on what I was talking about. Start/stop automatic triggers when the vehicle is stopped, but only if the engine is warm already. This is exactly for the same reason as I pointed out above: starting a cold engine is bad. Starting an engine that is already close to its operating temperature takes very little effort and puts very little strain on the system.
As I said, cold start from ev, use ice when near rpm ideals
That makes no sense. The electric motors are an entirely different, separate system from the ICE. As such, using the e-drive will not heat up or spin the pistons in the ICE at all.
The ICE is only connected to a generator to charge the battery while driving, thus providing extra charge for more range and/or peak torque/speed.
I wish ford would do that but I don’t think they will. They’re only bringing the phev ranger to Europe, and iirc started they had no plans to make the maverick a plug in. And the f150 already has the electric version in the lightning.
I think it’s funny this news comes out just after they add a 100% tariff to Chinese EVs. I’d of course not want to see US automotive industry destroyed by cheap Chinese EVs but there’s no way the US cannot compete
