Analysis Episode #14 - Russia/UkraineKeep your private data private with our sponsor, Aura! Get two weeks free, no strings attached, with our link: https://a...
Has anyone watched the new episode from First Thought/JT?
I was quite let down by this video, I know that they said there would be no coverage of the internal politics for brevity, but avoiding that makes this video essentially useless. The internal politics are some of, if not the most important aspect of this war and not talking about it just makes the topic lose any sort of substance. Without the internal politics you are just parroting what everyone already pretty much knows and it makes it seem like this war came out of nowhere.
Have the Deprogram boys ever talked at length about the Ukraine-Russia proxy war? I know they’ve mentioned it here and there but nothing super deep, just little comments.
I think they missed a huge opportunity to talk about what this war is truly about and where it originated, this could have been a great video to educate others on the deep rooted context that informs this conflict but I guess we couldn’t get that… maybe next time.
He has a video on the CPUSA channel iirc on the war, calling it a proxy war and all that. I think since his channels are more directed at libs it took a very “centrist” stance trying to avoid controversy. For socdems/radlibs, admitting Ukraine is the vassal it is is a hard pill to swallow (especially in the US where I presume most the viewers are, where the war had pretty much no downsides). Nevertheless, in 2024 we have multiple statements and articles from the most fervent NATOist and pro-western sources spelling out that the war IS fought for the US’ benefit, and the 2014 coup WAS a US effort.
That said, I think it’s incorrect for JT to still be portraying the war in such a way on his channels. The war should be seen for what it is, before it inevitably disappears from libs’ memory and people can get away with saying stupid shit and get away with it. It’s not a secret that he’s a “tankie”, too. I don’t think the people supporting his channel are oblivious to that, so I wouldn’t say it’s a money problem. But then again, I’m not him.
This is an excuse that people have made for the deprogram guys for over 2 years now. I know because I myself was under the same impression. But this is proven to be completely bullshit and irrelevant for quite a while now. The whole “they are appealing to libs and want to take a centrist approach to sensitive topics” crap completely went out the window the moment they decided to comment in support of Gaza in the wake of the genocide since last October. All their channels got blacklisted from advertisers and they decided to throw caution to the wind and drop any pretense in their revolutionary messaging, since they have nothing to lose anymore. Just look at any of JT’s videos since October, and this is most evident.
If the goal was to cultivate a following of liberals and western moderates then start to slowly get them radicalized, it has failed or rather the plan has been long derailed. They ended up attracting a load of ultras and weirdos, which they’ll never convince of anything regardless. I think even they know this at some level because their messaging has shifted.
If they’re ready to tell the truth about Gaza, then they should do the same for Ukraine, simple as that. From here on, any milquetoast or weak spirited commentary should be rightfully called out, we should expect better from them.
This is a sad but sober and i believe accurate assessment of the situation. Unfortunately the audience they have cultivated is one which (at least a part of it) does not want to hear the truth about Ukraine. It is no coincidence that they have a lot of overlap with Hasan Piker’s audience, as Hasan is another “leftist” content creator who never had the guts to go against the anti-Russia narrative. It is just a fact that in today’s western left, much of which is extremely compromised, being pro-Palestine is acceptable while being pro-Russia is not. This is an indicator to me that for whatever reason the empire sees pro-Russia left anti-imperialists as more of a threat than the pro-Palestine movement. They have done a very good job infecting the western left with the anti-Russia psyop.
I completely agree with what you said at the end there.
This is an indicator to me that for whatever reason the empire sees pro-Russia left anti-imperialists as more of a threat than the pro-Palestine movement.
I always viewed this as “it’s way more difficult for the empire to justify what it does in Palestine than in Ukraine”. Primarily because of how many of these breadtube “leftists” like Vaush & friends rabidly support the US in Ukraine, but even they condemned Isn’treal as soon as October 7th happened.
I completely understand why JT uses the language he does, I really do, but there has to be a way to portray the war accurately without using the framing or terms that would trigger anyone watching. Because this is what happens when there is not effort put in, you get lackluster content at best or add to the misinformation at worst. I don’t want to be too hard on him, and maybe I’m coming off that way, but it’s from a place of frustration from what could have been vs what we actually got. Gentle parenting libs is hard, I know, but I think the effort is worth it, this video is just not it and it doesn’t really add anything to the discussion either. At the end of the day I know he can do better and I hope the next video he makes is.
Yeah, I agree. He did a better job on the Taiwan video, taking into account that he was being that centrist. The Europe video was very basic, but still getting the point across.
I think since his channels are more directed at libs it took a very “centrist” stance trying to avoid controversy
Do you know what this is called? Tailism! To follow behind popular opinion in a condescending effort to “meet it where its at” even when “where its at” is backward, misinformed, and reactionary is literally the exact definition of tailism!
If he was actually doing Marxist agitation and not whatever miserable opportunist bullshit he’s evidently on, he would be trying to raise people’s consciousness instead of act as another mouthpiece on the thousand-tongued devil-spawn that is the MSM.
If JT “can’t” speak properly on Russia-Ukraine, better to not speak on it at all and focus on what he can address with truth, instead of this nonsense.
The current state of affairs is unacceptable. He must be either corrected or abandoned.
I think they missed a huge opportunity to talk about what this war is truly about and where it originated, this could have been a great video to educate others on the deep rooted context that informs this conflict but I guess we couldn’t get that… maybe next time.
That’s just the thing… In what way are you better than the liberals if you talk about this very important stuff after the conflict has ended, not while it’s still ongoing? To paraphrase, “Liberals are always against every war except the current one”. You educating people on the matter makes a difference - it stirs people in a direction different from the common Western propaganda narrative, which helps bring down this bubble. When it is over and they come out and say “hey, you know what? what actually happened in Ukraine was this and that and this and that…”, it would be 10 times less impactful.
This video was just a whole lot of nothing, and they could’ve done so much good by releasing one that went into what the actual conflict was about, and yet… we got this. We need people talking about the true nature of this war more than ever and, just like you said, it will be useless when all is said and done. It needs to happen now or there is no point. I know there are some academics who have talked about it (Ivan Katchanovski, my beloved) but their platforms and reach aren’t nearly as accessible or widespread as people like the Deprogram guys. It just sucks…
I wouldn’t say so. Based on how he speaks about Palestine, China, etc. he’s definitely not revisionist; its just this one topic, Ukraine, that he and the other Deprogram boys have a strange stance on, as in its a whole lot of nothing. This is just the one thing they avoid talking about at length and it’s very strange why they don’t.
There are still pro-Russia channels on YouTube, you just need to have a bit of courage and not allow yourself to be intimidated by the prospect of losing your audience if you tell the truth about the Ukraine conflict. Yes you may alienate people who weren’t ever serious about anti-imperialism - those aren’t the kinds of people you want in your community as a communist anyway! let them call you a “Russian shill” or whatever, who cares? - but you will gain by attracting people who respect you for having the integrity to be truthful and say what others are afraid to. And most importantly you do not let the right monopolize the anti-imperialist position.
And if YouTube does take you down, well that’s what alternative platforms are for. I know many alternative platforms get criticized for being infested with right wingers, and it’s true, but they are spaces that will gain more and more importance as the imperialism-aligned corporate platforms continue to purge ever more dissenting voices, so the left should have a presence on the alternatives and not surrender these spaces to the right.
It is extremely poor strategic planning for us to put all our eggs in one basket. That just gives the corporate monopolies carte blanche to blackmail us into self-censoring and betraying our own principles.
And if time and effort were in such short supply why waste them rehashing the same shit we’ve been hearing from the mainstream media for two years? Maybe that could have been skipped and they could have put time and effort into telling us what the MSM won’t? Just a thought…
This is interesting, I will say though, and I hope I don’t come across as harsh towards First Thought, there was no point in making this video since they’re just going to parrot the same surface level information that has been reported ad nauseam. Everyone is well aware of the damages caused by this war but not very many people know why. The “why” is the most important here but it was avoided. There was no reason to make this video, no real new perspective was added, just the same thing we’ve been hearing. Hopefully sometime soon they’ll feel comfortable enough to upload a video going into the internal politics that caused this whole mess and inform the current damages. Thank you for sharing this.
I understand that completely, but my thing is that they can still talk about the conflict accurately without polarizing language that would get them in trouble; it takes a little more elbow grease but it is possible. Omitting terms like “puppet,” “proxy,” etc. goes a long way.
I was quite let down by this video, I know that they said there would be no coverage of the internal politics for brevity, but avoiding that makes this video essentially useless. The internal politics are some of, if not the most important aspect of this war and not talking about it just makes the topic lose any sort of substance. Without the internal politics you are just parroting what everyone already pretty much knows and it makes it seem like this war came out of nowhere.
Have the Deprogram boys ever talked at length about the Ukraine-Russia proxy war? I know they’ve mentioned it here and there but nothing super deep, just little comments.
I think they missed a huge opportunity to talk about what this war is truly about and where it originated, this could have been a great video to educate others on the deep rooted context that informs this conflict but I guess we couldn’t get that… maybe next time.
He has a video on the CPUSA channel iirc on the war, calling it a proxy war and all that. I think since his channels are more directed at libs it took a very “centrist” stance trying to avoid controversy. For socdems/radlibs, admitting Ukraine is the vassal it is is a hard pill to swallow (especially in the US where I presume most the viewers are, where the war had pretty much no downsides). Nevertheless, in 2024 we have multiple statements and articles from the most fervent NATOist and pro-western sources spelling out that the war IS fought for the US’ benefit, and the 2014 coup WAS a US effort.
That said, I think it’s incorrect for JT to still be portraying the war in such a way on his channels. The war should be seen for what it is, before it inevitably disappears from libs’ memory and people can get away with saying stupid shit and get away with it. It’s not a secret that he’s a “tankie”, too. I don’t think the people supporting his channel are oblivious to that, so I wouldn’t say it’s a money problem. But then again, I’m not him.
This is an excuse that people have made for the deprogram guys for over 2 years now. I know because I myself was under the same impression. But this is proven to be completely bullshit and irrelevant for quite a while now. The whole “they are appealing to libs and want to take a centrist approach to sensitive topics” crap completely went out the window the moment they decided to comment in support of Gaza in the wake of the genocide since last October. All their channels got blacklisted from advertisers and they decided to throw caution to the wind and drop any pretense in their revolutionary messaging, since they have nothing to lose anymore. Just look at any of JT’s videos since October, and this is most evident.
If the goal was to cultivate a following of liberals and western moderates then start to slowly get them radicalized, it has failed or rather the plan has been long derailed. They ended up attracting a load of ultras and weirdos, which they’ll never convince of anything regardless. I think even they know this at some level because their messaging has shifted.
If they’re ready to tell the truth about Gaza, then they should do the same for Ukraine, simple as that. From here on, any milquetoast or weak spirited commentary should be rightfully called out, we should expect better from them.
This is a sad but sober and i believe accurate assessment of the situation. Unfortunately the audience they have cultivated is one which (at least a part of it) does not want to hear the truth about Ukraine. It is no coincidence that they have a lot of overlap with Hasan Piker’s audience, as Hasan is another “leftist” content creator who never had the guts to go against the anti-Russia narrative. It is just a fact that in today’s western left, much of which is extremely compromised, being pro-Palestine is acceptable while being pro-Russia is not. This is an indicator to me that for whatever reason the empire sees pro-Russia left anti-imperialists as more of a threat than the pro-Palestine movement. They have done a very good job infecting the western left with the anti-Russia psyop.
I completely agree with what you said at the end there.
I always viewed this as “it’s way more difficult for the empire to justify what it does in Palestine than in Ukraine”. Primarily because of how many of these breadtube “leftists” like Vaush & friends rabidly support the US in Ukraine, but even they condemned Isn’treal as soon as October 7th happened.
I completely understand why JT uses the language he does, I really do, but there has to be a way to portray the war accurately without using the framing or terms that would trigger anyone watching. Because this is what happens when there is not effort put in, you get lackluster content at best or add to the misinformation at worst. I don’t want to be too hard on him, and maybe I’m coming off that way, but it’s from a place of frustration from what could have been vs what we actually got. Gentle parenting libs is hard, I know, but I think the effort is worth it, this video is just not it and it doesn’t really add anything to the discussion either. At the end of the day I know he can do better and I hope the next video he makes is.
Yeah, I agree that this honestly was one of his worst videos.
Yeah, I agree. He did a better job on the Taiwan video, taking into account that he was being that centrist. The Europe video was very basic, but still getting the point across.
Do you know what this is called? Tailism! To follow behind popular opinion in a condescending effort to “meet it where its at” even when “where its at” is backward, misinformed, and reactionary is literally the exact definition of tailism!
If he was actually doing Marxist agitation and not whatever miserable opportunist bullshit he’s evidently on, he would be trying to raise people’s consciousness instead of act as another mouthpiece on the thousand-tongued devil-spawn that is the MSM.
If JT “can’t” speak properly on Russia-Ukraine, better to not speak on it at all and focus on what he can address with truth, instead of this nonsense.
The current state of affairs is unacceptable. He must be either corrected or abandoned.
That’s just the thing… In what way are you better than the liberals if you talk about this very important stuff after the conflict has ended, not while it’s still ongoing? To paraphrase, “Liberals are always against every war except the current one”. You educating people on the matter makes a difference - it stirs people in a direction different from the common Western propaganda narrative, which helps bring down this bubble. When it is over and they come out and say “hey, you know what? what actually happened in Ukraine was this and that and this and that…”, it would be 10 times less impactful.
This video was just a whole lot of nothing, and they could’ve done so much good by releasing one that went into what the actual conflict was about, and yet… we got this. We need people talking about the true nature of this war more than ever and, just like you said, it will be useless when all is said and done. It needs to happen now or there is no point. I know there are some academics who have talked about it (Ivan Katchanovski, my beloved) but their platforms and reach aren’t nearly as accessible or widespread as people like the Deprogram guys. It just sucks…
Would you say that JT is a revisionist?
I wouldn’t say so. Based on how he speaks about Palestine, China, etc. he’s definitely not revisionist; its just this one topic, Ukraine, that he and the other Deprogram boys have a strange stance on, as in its a whole lot of nothing. This is just the one thing they avoid talking about at length and it’s very strange why they don’t.
Maybe is because their platforms can be taken down since every pro-Russia platform was taken down from YouTube.
There are still pro-Russia channels on YouTube, you just need to have a bit of courage and not allow yourself to be intimidated by the prospect of losing your audience if you tell the truth about the Ukraine conflict. Yes you may alienate people who weren’t ever serious about anti-imperialism - those aren’t the kinds of people you want in your community as a communist anyway! let them call you a “Russian shill” or whatever, who cares? - but you will gain by attracting people who respect you for having the integrity to be truthful and say what others are afraid to. And most importantly you do not let the right monopolize the anti-imperialist position.
And if YouTube does take you down, well that’s what alternative platforms are for. I know many alternative platforms get criticized for being infested with right wingers, and it’s true, but they are spaces that will gain more and more importance as the imperialism-aligned corporate platforms continue to purge ever more dissenting voices, so the left should have a presence on the alternatives and not surrender these spaces to the right.
It is extremely poor strategic planning for us to put all our eggs in one basket. That just gives the corporate monopolies carte blanche to blackmail us into self-censoring and betraying our own principles.
Actually, nvm, someone just asked him on his server and he replied as to why
Ugh. “Optics” is such a liberal answer…
And if time and effort were in such short supply why waste them rehashing the same shit we’ve been hearing from the mainstream media for two years? Maybe that could have been skipped and they could have put time and effort into telling us what the MSM won’t? Just a thought…
This is interesting, I will say though, and I hope I don’t come across as harsh towards First Thought, there was no point in making this video since they’re just going to parrot the same surface level information that has been reported ad nauseam. Everyone is well aware of the damages caused by this war but not very many people know why. The “why” is the most important here but it was avoided. There was no reason to make this video, no real new perspective was added, just the same thing we’ve been hearing. Hopefully sometime soon they’ll feel comfortable enough to upload a video going into the internal politics that caused this whole mess and inform the current damages. Thank you for sharing this.
A good one in Spanish that I like that was taken down due to pro-Russian sentiment was Ahi Les Va, also RT was banned from YouTube.
The censorship on pro-Russian content has gotten to new heights on the west.
deleted by creator
I understand that completely, but my thing is that they can still talk about the conflict accurately without polarizing language that would get them in trouble; it takes a little more elbow grease but it is possible. Omitting terms like “puppet,” “proxy,” etc. goes a long way.
https://lemmygrad.ml/comment/4425668