살 and 쌀 are the same word

  • lugal@sopuli.xyz
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    2 months ago

    Hawaiian has barely any consonants, so k, kh, g, gh, q, t, d, ʈ, … are all allophones no matter which language we are talking about? That’s not how this works. It would work when talking about words loaned into Hawaiian but not when talking about another language altogether.

    And allophones aren’t necessarily difficult to distinguish. German has 2 versions of <ch> ([x] and [ç]) depending on the preceding vowel. Also we have quite a few realizations of /r/ (not as many of Dutch though) easy to tell apart and deduct roughly where someone is from. You’re just using the word wrong.

    • TimewornTraveler@lemm.eeOP
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      2 months ago

      are all allophones no matter which language we are talking about?

      I don’t know where you got the impression that I said that if something is an allophone in one language it’s an allophone in all languages. Jeez!

      • Lvxferre@mander.xyzM
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        2 months ago

        I don’t know where you got the impression that I said that if something is an allophone in one language it’s an allophone in all languages. Jeez!

        I think that this impression is mostly from the fact that your post doesn’t make any reference to English (or another language lacking the distinction), so people are incorrectly associating what you said with Korean instead, and incorrectly assuming ignorance.

        I don’t think that people would misread you if the meme said

        “When you have to distinguish two sounds from a language that are allophones in yours”. // 살 and 쌀 sound the same for me!

        That said, I fully agree with you that people aren’t spending enough time trying to understand each other here.

        Ah, thanks for the info (from another comment) on Korean rendering some English /s/ as one or another consonant! It hints that English at least comes close to the tense-S in some situations.

        • TimewornTraveler@lemm.eeOP
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          2 months ago

          Thank you! Good communication tips. Sometimes I try to broaden my language to let it apply to more situations but I think it can just end up sounding detached and confusing.

      • lugal@sopuli.xyz
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        2 months ago

        But English is measure of all things?

        You still seem to think that allophone is when they sound the same. That’s not even part of the definition. In my last comment I elaborated about allophones that sound quite distinct for native speakers. Let me now explain what allophone really is:

        One straightforward definition (that has its flaws) is that allophone is when there are no minimal pairs. You literally gave a minimal pair.

        You can even have two identical phones belonging to different phonemes. German devoices final consonants so /d/ has the allophones [d] and [th]. In effect, “Rat” and “Rad” both have final [th] while being allophones of /t/ and /d/ respectively.

        • TimewornTraveler@lemm.eeOP
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          2 months ago

          I gave a minimal pair in Korean because they are not allophones in Korean. Your first instinct, “They’re the same picture” was spot on. To an English speaker, they’re the same sound. There are no minimal pairs in English. So… ah forget it. If you don’t get it, you don’t get it.

          I just wish people spent more time trying to understand what others mean instead of more time on why they think others are wrong. Isn’t that why we love linguistics to begin with??

          • jbrains@sh.itjust.works
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            2 months ago

            I just wish people spent more time trying to understand what others mean instead of more time on why they think others are wrong.

            As I have aged, this lament has come to characterize about 84% of my worldview.