So many “yeah but… “ comments on all these posts about someone arrested without a warrant and deported with no legal pretense at all. Pathetic boot licking behavor. Pick a side or get out of our way.
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
- Frank Wilhoit
This is the right wing. You can’t expect to have a logical argument with them.
Imagine thinking not abridging free speech means that you can’t go after press/people that are knowingly lying.
Like, no, this is not what free speech means. Scientific fact are no opinions. You can only have the opinion that a scientific fact was not an scientific fact at all, but as soon as it is scientifically proofed that this is not the case, it is no opinion anymore, but just a wrong statement.
Fuck Balestine
Fun fact, the US government can revoke a person’s Naturalization if the government thinks you are a “terrorist” within 5 years of Naturalization:
A person is subject to revocation of naturalization if the person becomes a member of, or affiliated with, the Communist party, other totalitarian party, or terrorist organization within five years of his or her naturalization. In general, a person who is involved with such organizations cannot establish the naturalization requirements of having an attachment to the Constitution and of being well-disposed to the good order and happiness of the United States.
The fact that a person becomes involved with such an organization within five years after the date of naturalization is prima facie evidence that he or she concealed or willfully misrepresented material evidence that would have prevented the person’s naturalization.
Source: https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-l-chapter-2
As a US Citizen that has Derivative Citizenship, this is honestly terrifying. Its one of the reasons I’m too afraid to protest. I don’t want to end up stateless.
If I was a white US-born Citizen, I might be more willing to protest.
A person is subject to revocation of naturalization if the person becomes a member of, or affiliated with, the Communist party, other totalitarian party, or terrorist organization within five years of his or her naturalization.
- It’s funny they still act like communist parties are a threat in 2025
- I wonder if and whenever the Republican party will be marked as one.
Fuck it, update the law to include the MAGA cult. Apparently Hispanic communities are not beyond that brainwashing.
Not joining a terrorist organization or other extremist group for five years is not much of a problem really.
Most people manage to not join terrorist organizations for their whole life.
Until the government changes the definition of a terrorist organization.
…again.
“If you don’t like it you can leave” is such a shit argument that I keep hearing, the whole point of democracy is that if you don’t like it you are allowed to complain and vote to change the situation. Implying someone doesn’t have the right to complain or change an existing system is just how fascism works…
Fun Fact (or maybe a “Not-so-fun” Fact): The US government can revoke a person’s Naturalization if the government thinks you are a “terrorist” within 5 years of Naturalization:
A person is subject to revocation of naturalization if the person becomes a member of, or affiliated with, the Communist party, other totalitarian party, or terrorist organization within five years of his or her naturalization. In general, a person who is involved with such organizations cannot establish the naturalization requirements of having an attachment to the Constitution and of being well-disposed to the good order and happiness of the United States.
The fact that a person becomes involved with such an organization within five years after the date of naturalization is prima facie evidence that he or she concealed or willfully misrepresented material evidence that would have prevented the person’s naturalization.
Source: https://www.uscis.gov/policy-manual/volume-12-part-l-chapter-2
That is true and actually had been a thing during George W. Bush’s terms in the 2000s during the height on the War on Terror. If he and his administration thought you were a terrorist (even going as far as to criticize the then-administration), you got your citizenship revoked.
I’ve heard that dumb argument a lot, being touted from GOP voters at every turn. It’s their speed-dial of an argument whenever someone props up any issue that they see wrong, usually because of something tied to GOP, is when they will bring that argument up.
No, I’m not fucking going anywhere just to appease you and your batshit ideals. I’m going to remain here and probably give you hell just because you’re simply annoyed by the fact that there are people who live and think differently than you do and you have to co-exist with that. Or don’t and you take your chances by trying to act it out so we can get all of this pent up bullshit frustration out over political differences. Whichever works.
And I want anyone in their country to stand and fight for change in their country. If you keep running away all of the time, you are letting them win and destroy what you call home and your country that you identify with.
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. It is everyone’s civic duty to guide their country in a positive direction.
I am sorry, they stopped requiring civics in highschool a long time ago.
Exactly. I tell folks all the time one of the most patriotic things you can do is protest for change.
Now they are deporting people legally in the US who didn’t break any laws.
It’s not even about deporting illegal immigrants anymore.
It never was. It’s always been about oppression.
First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out - Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
With Fascists it’s always the same playbook: start with an easily demoniseable minority and over time extend it to the rest.
I wish I could remember the book I read that deconstructed fascism. One of the key components of fascism is an ever concentric cone of who is in the in group vs the out group.
The goal is not fascism but cronyism. That’s why fascist governments never last longer than a few decades.
When wealth and power are concentrated in a small group of people, they become easy targets to a growing angry population. People begin to realize they have nothing left to lose and will begin revolting.
Here in the US, we haven’t quite reached that point yet but I suspect we’ll get there within 20 years.
guns
“We the people. . .” yah sure magat
Well, obviously the “we” means it only applies to us, not to them.
/s for avoidance of doubt.
Exactly
People: definition in america: Anyone who has south or mid english ancestrys and holds land + has an income of high income
They want people to “follow the rules”, but see the “rules” change every day, depending on what mood the rulers are in. It also depends on the color of your skin to them, if its not white, you’re always breaking the “rules” no matter what.
“Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition, to wit: There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”
Freedom is always the freedom of the obedient.
Purple Belgium
I’ve learned in hearing conservatives talk about the ammendments, that they can only count to two. So long as they start at two.
They never agree with you when you cite the 8th
Terrorism has always been an exception to free speech, this isn’t new. Whether this is terrorism or not is debatable.
Saying “fuck Israel” is objectively not terrorism though
What did he say that was inciting terrorism?
Debatable only insomuch as some people want to paint free speech as such
Well, there is nuance in there. But I’m sure that’s not what this post is about.
Criticising Israel for brutal action against civilians - justified. Calling for the externination of Israel and its population - nazi stuff.
Unfortunately, many of the loudest “anti-zionist” peops seem to be actively for the latter approach, or willingly aid people that strive for it. To that I say: fuck off
It’s not “Nazi stuff” to call for the abolishment of Israel.
It’s a settler-colonial apartheid state actively involved in the complete extermination of the indigenous population. That’s actual Nazi stuff.
Most “Israelis” have another passport. They can go back to their own countries, or give up the state of Israel then live in the new Palestinian territory. No one’s talking about exterminating Israelis, not even while they actively exterminate Palestinians.
As we’ve seen with the way Israeli hostages were treated by Palestinians - fed, taken care of, birthdays celebrated is a stark contrast to how Palestinian prisoners are treated - starved, beaten, raped, tortured, set upon by dogs, buried alive. Decent Israelis would have nothing to fear if the whole land just transitioned to Palestinian territory.
There’s no issue with Judaism as a religion, or Jewish people. But Zionism is not Judaism, it’s just fascism, and the state of Israel is a fascist, genocidal state.
When the West Bank is being invaded and you have Trump talking about exterminating the remaining population of Gaza and building resorts on top of the land can you really keep telling yourself that Zionism and the state of Israel aren’t pure fascism?
No one’s talking about exterminating Israelis, not even while they actively exterminate Palestinians.
Well, I heard exactly that from multiple Lemmy user by now. To be fair, they normally come from certain instances, but it is definitely not no one.
Do you have a source on that dual citizenship claim? If you look at how they are treated even in Sweden, can you imagine forcing them to move back to the neighboring states where many of them came from?
Israeli politics are shitty and they are comitting war crimes but but lets be honest, jews are not safe anywhere else than perhaps the US. Having them move or just giving up their own country is no better than forcing the US to give back their country to the native americans. We are living in the now and most israelis are born in israel and are not responsible for what is happening there. The only good solution is to have two states, everything else will result in further conflict.
jews are not safe anywhere else
That’s not even close to true and is literally a line from Zionist propaganda.
At least in the West Jews are far safer than, for example, Muslims - it is the latter who are the “lesser race” of this age in the US and much or Europe, not the former.
If you exclude those reported claims of anti-semitism that turn out to be just criticism of Israel and it’s Genocide (so, of the actions of a nation state and the Zionist regime in charge of it, not of the Jewish people) there is very little anti-semitism going on at least in Europe and way, way, less than anti-Islamism, Racism against people with African ancestry in general or even prejudice against the Roma (Gypsies).
In Europe, even the Far Right is shy of making statements against Jews but they damn well love to make wild claims about Muslims being bad people.
https://bra.se/statistik/statistik-om-rattsvasendet/hatbrottsstatistik
Here is the official statistics of hate crimes in sweden. Antisemitic 4% of total and islamophobic is 8%. However there are around 800000 with a muslim background although only around 230000 are registered with a mosque organized by the major islamic umbrella organization. The same number for jews are 20000 and 6000 active in a congregation. So we have 40 times more muslims, meaning you are 20 times more likely to be a victim of an antisemitic hate crime.
That’s quite the massive goalpost moving from “Jews are not safe anywhere else [but Israel]” to “in 2022 in Sweden there were 108 (4% of hate crimes that year) criminally reported cases of anti-semitism” and that’s in a country were criticism of Israel is deemed anti-semitism, so the real figure of actual anti-semitism (i.e. words and actions against people for being Jews, not merelly the criticizing of Israel) is likely to be vastly lower.
For example were I live, Portugal, politicians went out of the way to pass a law that gives Portuguese nationality to those who can indicate (outright proof is not needed and seldom possible) descendence from people belonging to a Jewish group (the Sefardites) expelled from the country in the 17th century, with the curious result that the most famous “Portuguese” person is the Russian billionaire Abramovich and there are quite a lot of “Portuguese” in Israel who have zero relation with country beyond paying the Synagoge in Porto to pass them a certification that they are Sefardites so as to easilly get an EU passport and hence Freedom to travel, live and work in all of the EU.
It absolutelly is Racism, just in the very opposite direction of what you claim: there are actual living persons in Africa who were victims of Forced Labour (i.e. Slavery) by the Portuguese regime there in the 1960s, plus even more people who are direct, provable descendants of such victims, but apparently what’s far, far more important for a certain rightwing political party in Portugal is to compensate the “descendants” of a group (descendants in quotes because few or none can definitivelly prove direct descendency of victims of those actions) for the actions of Portugal against their ancestors 10 generations ago - by an amazing, trully incredible “coincidence” the distant, possible but almost never definitivelly proven, descendants of people expelled from Portugal 300 years ago deemed deserving of compensation for long past actions of Portugal just happen to White, whilst the actual living victims and direct, provable, descendants of victims of the practice of Slavery of Portugal in Africa a mere 6 decades ago who are not deemed deserving of compensation for it, are Black.
There is definitelly a racist double standard going on, and it’s definitelly not anti-semitism.
And don’t get me started on what happens to somebody demonstrating in Germany or Britain against the Genocide in Gaza when detained by the police for it if they are Jewish compare to what happens if they’re Muslim.
Again, a racist double standard, and it’s definitelly not anti-semitism.
“Whites who happen not to be Christian” are the least discriminated against minorities in Europe at the moment except for a handful of places (I believe that Hungary, for example, is pretty anti-semitic).
I mean yeah it does sound like you have a problem with double standards in portugal, no denying that. All i can speak for is what ive seen and what the statistics say. And what iv’e seen is that Jews wearing a kippa are getting shouted at from across the street while muslims absolutely get their share of hatered but they are in no mean in danger just by showing their faith not at the same level so jews here don’t show their religious symbols. We have had weekly pro-palestine protest where they shout praising the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam brigade while in swedish they have much milder wording. And thats fine here, we allow protests and noone is going to stop them. Most people just let them do their thing. I support a part of their message with a free palestine but not the hateful rhetoric. The statistics is quite telling, but for sake of comparison, lets look at UK.
33% were on jews, 38% on muslims. By population count, they have a factor of 12 times more crimes against them.
Anyhow the argument that they should move or give up their country is no better than what the israeli government is doing right now.
Interestingly, I lived in the UK for over a decade, so here are some observations:
First the UK legally considers many forms of criticism of Israel to be anti-semitism, which vastly multiplies the official count of “hate crimes” against Jews, especially since the Genocide in Gaza really went from slow burn to full steam ahead, as for example anybody shouting during a Peace In Palestine demonstration “From the land to the sea, Palestine will be free” is per the legislation there deemed to have committed an anti-semitic hate crime.
Second, over there I had friends and acquaintances who were Jewish, Muslim, Black, Indian, British, Asian and non-British European and have never once heard any of my Jewish friends or acquaintances complain of being discriminated against whilst I’ve heard more than once that from Muslim friends, including a tale were members of the London Transit Police displayed outrageous racism against a Turkish friend of mine and his friends at a train stop because they “dared” to challenge a white girl who cut the queue to the ticket booth - I can’t speak for his mates but this guy wasn’t at all a violent person and was even married to an English woman, so its extremely unlikely he was being threatening much less violent. However he definitely had stereotypical Turkish looks.
I’ve also heard reports of being victim of Racism from Black friends and Indian friends, and I myself as a Southern European was a victim of racial prejudice over there.
From Indian friends I even heard a tale of the police outright refusing to accept the report of a crime from one of their friends whose wallet had been stolen. If the police won’t accept a crime report it doesn’t end up in the crime statistics. Keep this in mind because I’ll be back to it later.
Now, keep in mind that London has an entire area with Orthodox Jews, so people dressed in a way which is very visibly according to some Jewish traditions and not merely wearing a kippa (which I’ve also seen, all over London).
My impression, also from the political speech over there, is that actual discrimination and racial hate crimes (the real deal ones, because of ethnicity, not the “criticism of Israel is a ‘hate crime’” bollocks) against Jews in Britain is pretty much just random insults on the street. Meanwhile the ones against Muslims, Indians and Blacks are amongst others done by the actual police, as well as being discriminated against by Public Services and in Courts.
(I have never, not once, heard of a Jewish Person in Britain being a victim of racial discrimination by the Authorities. Meanwhile even members of the police with Southeast Asian ancestry report being victims of discrimination within the force)
Third, and circling back to the story told to me by Indian friends, consider the possibility that most crimes against the people whom the police themselves discriminates against are far less likely to be recorded (and definitely the police themselves will not record their own displays of racial hate) and thus do not appear in the statistics. Further, Jews in Britain are overwhelmingly Middle and Upper-Middle class, which in that country (which is very classist) makes it even more likely that, simply because they dress right, have the right accent and use the right words (and in some cases are even themselves Solicitors, Barristers or even High Court judges) when they do pop up on a police station to report a hate crime it gets treated seriously, whilst if, say, a Working class son of an Arab immigrant pops up on a police station he’s not taken seriously, is given the run around and is dissuaded from pushing for it to be investigated.
That idea that in the present day Jews are discriminated against all over the place is ridiculous. Certainly from what I’ve seen in the European countries I lived in, the actual authorities either treat them exactly the same as non-Jew whites or even discriminate “in their favor”. They also tend to benefit from the inequality of treatment based on wealth in present day society in most of Europe because for historical reasons they’re more likely to be Middle Class or higher than other minorities (who generally are either people from poorer countries or the direct descendants of such people hence not having had much chance at social mobility away from their class of birth, hence Working Class or even Poor).
This is not to deny that there is real anti-semitism in Europe, mainly committed by individuals with Far-Right ideologies. The difference compared to other minorities is that Jews are not discriminated against by the Authorities and are in fact taken seriously when they report having been a victim of a hate crime (plus in some countries, such as the UK and Germany, have actual political power explicitly backing “The Jewish People” - i.e. politicians openly practicing racial discrimination in favor of their ethnicity).
To wrap this up, from all I’ve heard from Jewish friends in Britain, you can have a very good life as a Jew over there, same as the locals (better if you’re upper-middle class) and to me there being entire areas in London were Orthodox Jews overtly dress according to their tradition (plus beyond that I’ve often seen people wearing the kippa), is a pretty good indication that they do not fear being victimized by anti-semites.
(Also from what I saw reported on TV back there - and note that this was before the latest Genocide in Gaza - just about all reported cases of “anti-semitism” were “criticism of Israel”, including an extraordinary situation were, for the political purpose of damaging the then leader of the center-left party, a Jewish Holocaust Survivor was accused of being an anti-semite for having compared some of the actions of Israel in Palestine to those of the Nazis during a conference for Palestine - in a country were repeatedly on national television it’s implied that a Jewish Holocaust Survivor!!! committed a hate crime against the Jewish People, it seems a little naive to trust that the statistics on hate crimes against Jews there are a genuine reflection of reality).
That doom statement you’ve several posts ago which triggered my initial response, stands in sharp contradiction to what I’ve observed in the countries of Europe I lived in and what I’ve been told by Jewish friends there, especially compared to other minorities living there some of which are definitely victims of racial discrimination at all levels including by the Authorities themselves, which are almost certainly severely under-reported due to a phenomenon very similar to how rapes are severely under-counted in the more sexist countries.
