The Jewish People Policy Institute Israel Index survey found that 8 out of 10 Jewish Israelis agreed with Trump’s proposal of expelling Palestinians from Gaza.
Forty-three percent of all Israelis said that the expulsion plan was “practical” and should be implemented, while 30 percent said the plan was “desirable” but not practical.
A minority of 13 percent - made of up 54 percent of Palestinian respondents and just three percent of Jewish Israelis - described the Trump plan as “immoral”.
Dude don’t blame this on religion. This is Zionism and fascism, both of which are post-Enlightenment Western inventions through and through.
Religion is excellent cover for it, though.
No? Religion can both support and oppose fascism, but looking at Hitler and Mussolini and thinking “religion did this” is frankly ahistorical and is nothing but a way for atheists to feel better about themselves.
You’ve reversed the order, and that doesn’t work.
“Religion enables violence” is not the same as “All violence is caused by religion.”
But since you’re brought up Hitler.
Yes, and I’m saying that religion had very little to do with Hitler’s inherently race-based ideology. Hell, the Nazis defined Jews via their ancestry, not their religious observance. What did religion have to do with the Generalplan Ost or the Aryan race?
Aryan race stuff, as exemplified in 19th and 20th century racial superiority, actually starts with lingustics.
Okay? You’re the only one talking about that, and nobody is disagreeing with you. Although I might add that Hitler and his ilk were kind of famously into the occult. Perhaps not a religion, but certainly religious.
Let me rephrase: Yes, and I’m saying that religion had very little to do with Hitler’s inherently race-based ideology, even as a cover. Nazis were religious to the extent that everyone at the time was religious, but religion was just another thing they pandered to and didn’t have a big role to play in their activities except insofar as all non-Nazi ideologies—religious or not—were targets of extermination.
Religion still does enable violence. Just because you’re citing a specific example where it arguably did not does not falsify that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_terrorism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khalistan_movement#Militancy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_war
And let’s not forget the Aztecs, whose religion had them subjugating their nearby enemies, capturing their people, and sacrificing them to satisfy their deities. The Aztecs were so horrible that when the Europeans showed up and kind of rolled over them, those previously subjugated city-states went fucking ham on the Aztecs, completely destroying them. And the Europeans were all “Dude, that’s harsh.”
There are certainly also plenty of non-religious cases of violence throughout history, of course, for good and bad reasons. “Because a deity ‘said so’” is never a good reason.
I thought I made it pretty clear I talking specifically about fascism and its offshoots like Zionism, Nazism and MAGA.
Adding to this, PunkRockSportsFan ignores that religion has been used to end violence. Christianity was a huge part in the US abolitionist movement.
I mean you can’t play that card when the entirety of slavery was justified by that same Christianity up until the point that a civil war ended the argument. Again, religion had nothing to do with it besides giving conviction to anyone based on what they feel, in their head, god wants. Abolitionists were religious just like every other person in america in 1880, and Abolitionists were not the majority.
Uh… No? Slavers made up race to justify slavery specifically because they couldn’t use Christianity to justify it anymore.
Ah okay so just up to that point lmao
Ever heard of the Quakers? Quite a few * other sects.
Were they the ones for abolition? I always associate them more with the revolution than the civil war but I could be mixing them up with the whigs
How many wars have been fought because of religion? Religions very commonly use fear as a method of control (Christians even invented hell just for that purpose). This makes them unfortunately well suited for fascist takeover.
The shit? The pioneers of fascism—Hitler and Mussolini—appealed to the Enlightenment-era ideologies of race and nationalism a lot more than they appealed to religion, and Ben Gurion was an atheist. Then in modern Israel you have liberal Jews and ultraorthodox Jews, who are both equally supportive of the genocide of Palestinians for Lebensraum (though liberal Jews are more likely to prioritize getting the hostages back). MAGA is also built on nationalism, race ideology and a notion of a “great America”, with religion only taking an auxiliary role. Again, fascism and Zionism were invented in and keep being practiced by the least religious region in the world; don’t make this the fault of religion because it’s quite obviously not. Religion isn’t the cause of everything you don’t like. Y’all invented this shit so own it.
Lmao what? The Nazi Party publicly and loudly identified with religion and persecuted and purged the Jews who had been treated awfully by Christians in Europe for centuries. Sure Hitler wanted to see the end of Christianity, but he was quite religious himself per the Goebbels Diaries: “The Führer is deeply religious, though completely anti-Christian. He views Christianity as a symptom of decay. Rightly so. It is a branch of the Jewish race. This can be seen in the similarity of their religious rites. Both (Judaism and Christianity) have no point of contact to the animal element, and thus, in the end they will be destroyed.” So privately Hitler was religious, and publicly the Nazis were religious, and one of the most sickening, widespread, and prominent atrocities they committed was the persecution and genocide of a religious minority.
I would argue that even though they identified a bit with Christianity, they weren’t religious. The nazis used lots of christian symbolisms and rhetorics due to cultural heritage as a way of garnering support.
But, stating that nazis were religious as in they adopted clear doctrines and rituals is fallacious, their philosophical beliefs were more akin to pantheism than anything else.
Okay and? Did you want them to be outspoken atheists in 1920s Germany?
Okay and? Antisemitism was already a thing independent of the Christianity that created it. The Nazis also went after leftists, (forgot to complete that sentence so edit:) Romas, Catholics and Slavs, among others.
Yeah why do you want them to be atheists? Nearly everyone was religious back then, so obviously they were going to be religious too. And in the first place, Hitler repeatedly challenged orthodox religious beliefs in his time, so if anything to him Christianity was a pain in the ass that he needed to deal with and not a part of his ideology. He also persecuted non-Nazi Christians almost as soon as they took power.
See above.
Never said it was. And I didn’t say religion was the source of fascism either.
Don’t excuse religion’s faults; it has been used to cause massive amounts of human suffering. Yes, it can be a positive tool. But it’s a tool that has a well documented history of repression and violence.
And of course, instead of solving underlying issues, we should just blame and ban surface level problems so that nothing ever changes.
Religion is just a tool, not a cause. The cause of all the problems you quote are ego and power-mongering. Those things twist anything they touch, not just religion.
The solution is not more vapid reactionism.
fucking thank you
Religion’s usefulness is way overestimated. It’s a crutch.
And what solution? Religion? Yeah, hell no.
And it’s pathetically ironic seeing a zealous reactionary projecting so predictably.
Blow it out your ass, for all I care. ～(つˆ0ˆ)つ｡☆
Crutches are useful tools. Do you advocate that someone who’s broken/sprained limbs to just suck it up and walk it off? That’s needlessly toxic.
Religion is not a solution, and I never said otherwise. I said it was a tool, nothing more or less. It’s effectiveness as a tool is questionable, I agree.
-You. This whole conversation is also about fascism. The proposition that religion is fertile ground for fascism is simply not supported historically.
Yes, but not under fascism. That’s what I’m trying to say here. Screw the Crusades, post-Reformation wars, the modern Iranian regime and the Taliban, but that shit has nothing to do with fascism. Religion and fascism (which is a form of state religion) are actively competing ideas.
How many wars have been fought for a state? Every single one.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion
But I will blame it on religion.
I do.
All those things only exist under the protection of untouchable religion.
Maybe they use it as a cover to justify their crimes against humanity, but as another person said, blaming it entirely on religion is a cheap deflection that tries to overshadow the root causes of such madness. When reading your first comment, I was somewhat in agreement, but your last one makes it seem like religion is the main reason for their deeds, as if the other 7 billion religious humans act the same way they do…
Defending religion is silly
It’s make believe.
It’s all bad faith.
Everyone is secular.
They just claim to be a member of a religion so they can justify cruelty to people who claim to be members of a different religion.
All your baloney about the founding of Israel ignores one thing: it’s a religious state for a specific religion.
In a holy war with a different religion.
All religions do this.
All religions indoctrinate their members to dehumanize outsiders.
This is a sub human trait, to not see the humanity in other humans.
Ipso facto : all religious people are willfully subhuman
This is simple logic not curated historical facts to push an agenda.
Hail Satan.
I hear your opinion but it’s not accurate and can lead to dangerous roads.
You must try to understand that the majority of the world has been exposed to incommensurable pain and suffering. From an anthropological perspective, it is rational and logical for the brain to protect itself by creating beliefs. Through social and cultural processes, these beliefs become embedded in societies.
Claiming that this is a subhuman trait is disingenuous because it is in human nature to seek explanations for what we observe in our environment. We are wired that way.
These actions should only be evaluated through the lens of this principle: “The freedom of one ends where the freedom of another begins.”
There are religious people who are kinder than atheists, and atheists who are more evil than religious people. Today, religion may be used as a political tool for authoritarian regimes, but tomorrow it could be something else.
Eradicating religion would not solve anything.
What’s a good compromise? Am I allowed to ridicule other people for their beliefs?
It is a core tenet of my philosophy
Why not? it does not infringe on anyone.
However, recognize the irony in claiming that all religions dehumanize outsiders, right before labeling religious people as subhuman. (The tolerance paradox does not work in this case)
The tolerance paradox absolutely applies here
I was raised to be religious.
I logic’d my way out of it in spite of the indoctrination.
This defines my entire world view: I did not hate the people they told me to hate.
Religion is intolerant by design. They are all claiming to have answers they cannot possible have but also refuse to allow scrutiny. Literal intolerance my friend. Literally intolerant of any outside ideas even.
It’s religion pal, it’s the stupid notion that we have to not only tolerate intolerant religions but have to respect their intolerant beliefs?!?!
NO NOT ME FUCK THAT
Your parents may be religious but religion isn’t your parents.
I see your point but simply put:
I believe there are both tolerant and intolerant religious people, just as there are tolerant and intolerant atheists.
Thus, if we want to tackle or end intolerance, focusing solely on religion is ineffective and won’t solve the problem, as religion is not the root cause of intolerance.
Rather, it’s the excuse used by the egos of hateful individuals to justify their irrational hatred. If religions were removed, people would simply find new ideologies or beliefs to hide behind.
What should be done is improving education, encouraging self introspection as well as being oneself, demonstrating that being empathetic is not a weakness and that we are all stuck on the same small rock in the middle of a seemingly endless void which is kind of weird.
Atheists, is this guy just an idiot or do y’all actually believe this?
A. I am an idiot
B. Atheists don’t believe the same things. That’s the whole point.
C. I’m not an atheist I am anti theist.
D. Is for dodgers.
You’re missing out the on the most important religion here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_religion
This song perfectly captures my feelings on the subject:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8aeGZpBLxK4