My primary argument is that they post hateful content and covid conspiracies and it is irresponsible to platform this by including it in our federation. Secondly we already got rid of lemmygrad. Thirdly, there’s little to be lost in the defederation given the type of stuff being posted over there. Do as thou wilt
Aye and nays pls
Edit: putting the screencaps I posted below here for clarity
I should probably put a content warning so
CW: homophobia, transphobia, and just being a shithead.
Edit 2: let’s try not to downvote people just saying nay. Unless they are making bad faith arguments we should respect their opinions even if we disagree.
Edit 3: Imma be real with y’all, this has been a real shitshow. We gotta work out some kinda single voting infrastructure because the ayes and Nays isn’t efficient at all.
I guess I’ll be one of the first.
Nay, for now.
Defederation should be the last option. After we have exhausted all other options. Because it’s the exchange of ideas, and exposure to other viewpoints, that helps reduce bigotry and hatred.
I’m well aware that a fascist is gonna fascist, no matter what someone tells them. There is no reasoning with them or trying to have a discourse with them because they only want to frustrate you. Those users should be blocked, or better, banned from our instance if possible. But there will be other users of that instance who are regular folk who simply like the idea of free speech. They should not be cut off and left to be turned by the fascists.
I ultimately disagree but I appreciate that you are making an argument from a place of good faith. It’s extremely refreshing, Thanks.
I don’t have a lot of hope that the instance will change, but disconnecting them from everyone else lets them control the narrative of “us vs them.”
We should be acting as a counter to their made up facts. And calling out the fallacies, as frustrating and tiring as it’ll be. Not on their instance, obviously, but anywhere they try to spread their hate. Fascism has festered in our society for decades, and now we need to shine a light on it for everyone to see it for what it is. Not hide it away.
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I understand what you’re saying, and to some extent I agree. The worst of the worst in that instance know exactly what they’re doing. I’m not saying we should argue directly with them.
I’m saying that by remaining federated with them, we act as a counter to their hate, and allow their users to experience posts that the instance can’t control. We aren’t going to change the minds of the worst of the worst. But we can change the minds of the average person.
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I’m going to quote myself from another discussion in this thread, because I’m getting sleepy now.
I don’t believe that every user on that instance is as bad as those folks, and the only way to make sure they don’t end up like that is to show them another way.
And I wanted to reply to this:
I’d rather have them wallow in a barren land of their own creation than run the risk of seeing them convert another impressionable person.
We know they won’t though. Like when the_donald was quarantined and banned, they’ll simply spread out to other instances. And instead of one hydra head, you’ll have many to deal with.
Ultimately, we may end up needing to defederate with them. But I want to try showing the regular people on that instance that their way of thinking isn’t the only way. And that it’s not a good way of thinking.
Thanks for the discussion. My body yearns for my bed, and my mind too sleepy to argue. If you want to continue, I’ll reply tonight.
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The problem being that they don’t want to be convinced, they just double down. Experts refuse to debate them for this reason and you want laymen to do it instead?
The little you’ll manage to bring back to reality is insignificant compared to the number they’ll convert by being allowed to take part in discussions.
I think another point of view is we are not “convincing” the creators of this reprehensible content of anything.
We are, instead, posting opposing views which may expose persons who wind up down that rabbithole - on purpose or by misadventure - to a different way of viewing the world.
That Utopian concept said, “AYE.”
People that won’t fall down the rabbit hole in the first place if they’re not exposed to these beliefs in the first place. They’ll still see people with the opposing point of view though.
I agree with you that the worst of the worst in that instance will do exactly as you say. I have no interest in arguing with them, and if I see them here I’ll block them.
But I am interested in acting as a counter to their hate, by having our posts show up in their feeds. If we can show their regular users how to have civil discourse, and expose them to new topics, we can get some to question the narrative.
They can come to our instance, sure. They can take part in our communities. But then they have to play by our rules, or get banned. Remember, a community lives on one instance and is propagated throughout the fediverse. Once they’re outside of their walled garden, they won’t be seeing that constant drip of hate.
And if any of that instance’s users are questioning what they’ve read there, they can come to us for an opposing view.
Defederation doesn’t prevent them from subscribing to communities here and seeing what we’re saying, it prevents local users from seeing what they post on their instance and on our instance. People who question what they see here can just subscribe here or on an instance we’re still federated with and come ask questions in good faith, it will be way easier to manage than letting all of them take part.
But again, experts don’t debate them, we can’t expect people who have no special training to be the social workers these people need when they’ve reached the deeper end.
Again, I don’t want to debate or discuss with any of the repeat offenders in the posts that @chalkman showed us. You are right, we won’t be able to save them, only they can do that.
I don’t believe that every user on that instance is as bad as those folks, and the only way to make sure they don’t end up like that is to show them another way.
And would you take part in a community that you couldn’t interact with? In my case, I haven’t gone to interact with any communities in Beehaw because what’s the point?
If you don’t want to interact with anyone from that instance, then don’t. We have the tools, and likely more are coming with future updates to Lemmy. But one thing we can’t forget is that these are people. I just want them to see that we are too.
Nay. Just block the instance for your own account if you feel offended. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the examples you’ve shown us. However, this does not warrant censorship for one. And on the other side, if no one is able to convince them due to deplatforming, things won’t ever get better. Thus: Nay.
Things will get better if they can’t share their message all over the place though.
A good example of that is Maxime Bernier (leader of the PPC,a political party in Canada) who has seen his support disappear after media stopped having the “obligation” to cover him because of election rules. His message lost its reach and now he’s doing live feeds in front of a couple hundreds instead of thousands.
Why wait until it becomes an issue instead of taking preventive measures if we’ve seen it becomes an issue on many platforms?
Oh, you’re making this same argument here as well.
This should be easy, I’ll just copy-paste my replies since you are also copy-pasting your replies (which is a little weird and sus).
Bernier and the PPC is an entire political party running for an election, not an internet community on a niche website that barely gets 20 different users.
🤔
Can whole instances be blocked on Lemmy? I thought only users/communities were possible atm.
They cannot
Nay
I think Contextual Idiot said it best - ‘Defederation should be the last option. After we have exhausted all other options. Because it’s the exchange of ideas, and exposure to other viewpoints, that helps reduce bigotry and hatred.’
That only works if the other party is open to the exchange of ideas and doesn’t just double down instead.
Do we really need to wait until it becomes a major issue or can we just learn from all other platforms that lost control and take measures before that happens?
Ironic hearing that from you.
I know from experience that you personally are not at all open to exchanging ideas.
🤔
Case in point.
The same group that spam downvotes anybody they disagree with accusing others of not being open to the exchange of ideas… 👍
pret much
🤔
Aye.
After reviewing the instance myself, their federation creates risks for this server falling afoul of the Criminal Code of Canada and the Canadian Human Rights Act.
I understand defederation is a nuclear option, and wait anxiously for improved tools for users to block posts from entire instances if so desired, but I see no benefit in our being federated with this specific instance.
Aye. Don’t platform dog whistling.
Edit: Actually I had an experience as a result of exploding-heads because I was looking for an Oregon community and came across their oregon one (archive link), which included demonizing homeless and trans people. I ended up blocking it. This isn’t just a bandwagon. I don’t want others on this instance to be lured into those hateful rabbit holes. I ended up joining the PNW community on lemmy.world
Aye.
I had given my reasons previously, but I prefer not to platform bigotry.
If there was a way to reason against this kind of thing, reason could be used.
It can’t.
Nay. I don’t like what they’re doing over there, but I don’t think defederating is the right thing to do.
Other people have already said what I was thinking: “Defederation should be the last option”, “You have a block list, curate your own filter bubble”, “we ourselves have felt what it is like”, etc.
Aye, after seeing the pictures this instance could very easily get into trouble for hosting that kind of content. Keep in mind that the site is not hosted in the US, but Canada.
Nay.
Having shitty opinions is not an adequate basis to defederate them. I believe defederation should be a last resort.
There is a very clear way to justify defederation. Namely, if another instance is preventing our instance from flourishing. But unless the server is actively causing harm to our users and communities, why is it necessary? Simply block them if you want.
When people ask me why we defederated them, I would like to have a good answer.
I would have figured the hate speech would be a good answer to why we defed them.
Not good enough for me unless they are specifically directing it at us. Defederating them doesn’t make them stop existing. It simply plays into their narrative that we are too sensitive and we can’t handle the truth.
It’s not about them, it’s about our community and what kind of example we want to set. I would prefer to engage with any instance until they transgress against us specifically and significantly. I think that is the best way for a federation to operate.
I’m going to agree with contextual idiot
Nay
Mainly because we ourselves have felt what it is like to be defederation because of others on our instance. There could very well be normal upstairs people hosted on that instance that never interacts with their instances community itself.
If we defederate we risk them getting stuck in an eco chamber and potentially become exactly like the rest of them. And then that also brings up the same issue. The ones that are already bigots, if put into an echo chamber are going to think they are correct and are going to become bigger bigots. We won’t ever see it but the people in their day to day life will.
And you think letting them take part in discussions here won’t make users outside their instance convert? The more they can spread their message the more people join their cause and more join then leave. Sure some are already over there and don’t believe their bs, there’s a lot less of them than potential converts on Lemmy at large.
Don’t be afraid of their “arguments”.
What I don’t want is to see more people join them, I know I’m not at risk, but some people are.
So you’d rather they join there because that’s their only option and get them submerged in that bubble?
They won’t join then if they don’t see the message in the first place.
This is a delusion. Everyone knows how deep the youtube rabbit hole can take you.
Well then, buy YouTube from Google and remove the content from there… Or you know, do your part where you’re able to.
But are they coming to this instance in any significant capacity? If they keep their discussions/trolling off of this instance then I don’t see any benefit. Individuals can already block the instance on their own accounts.
They’ve started:
https://sh.itjust.works/comment/293823
Same tactic as always too, there’s nothing special about Lemmy that will prevent the alt-right and tankies from spreading if no measures are taken. We’ve already defederated from the tankies instance, why not do the same with the other extreme?
Is it just the 1 person trolling so far then? Because that’s all I’ve seen your links. If it’s one troll, then the admins here can just ban them and move on.
As the saying goes, 1 is chance, 2 is a coincidence, 3+ is a pattern
One trolling, one recruiting.
That’s exactly how it begins on every single platform. How long do we wait before applying knowledge learned from all other social medias?
Seems a bit early to resort to the slippery slope fallacy.
I’ll reiterate my stance: there doesn’t seem to be an extended history of trolling from them (yet), and there’s nothing stopping you or anyone else here from blocking their content from your own account. If that changes and they start trolling or breaking rules here, then I’ll definitely support defederating from them, but at the moment that seems to be overkill.
Meanwhile, I’ll point out that there’s spots in this thread where you have been less than civil over mere differences in opinion. That is not how you get people to side with you.
Is it really a slippery slope fallacy if the same story repeats itself on all social media platforms that don’t censor the alt-right? What makes Lemmy special that would prevent it?
Aye
Going forward, will be necessary to articulate standards and processes for defederation, to avoid having to relitigate the concepts of free speech, hate speech, etc. every time.
Created a separate [Discussion] post for general defederation standards.
It will be important to articulate what standards are intended to be applied to instances generally; it’s not just about the particularly awful vibes of this particular one. There will be dozens or hundreds more like it, not to mention the spammers and whatnot.
No.
You are not ‘deplatforming’ them by de-federating. They still have a platform, they still have communities and they still can post there. You can’t deplatform people in a federated social media, they own their own instance. What you’re asking is for the site admins to add every EH user and community to the block list of everyone on this instance. I’m an adult, I don’t need a Big Brother deciding what I can and cannot see.
Save de-federation for last resort issues that cannot possibly be resolved in any other way. If an instance is spamming, if an instance is being used for planning violence, if an instance is allowing the sharing of abusive images or illegal material, if an instance is coordinating harassment (doxing, SWATing, etc) then de-federate them.
De-federation should not be used to create filter bubbles. You have a block list, curate your own filter bubble. Don’t try to enforce your block list on everyone else.
It’s also worth noting that, outside of the the 4th and 5th images, none of the posts in those images would even be considered breaking a rule if posted on this instance. You’re, for the most part, just posting right-wing posts which makes this appear like you’re trying to push a political position.
They’re not right wing posts they’re alt-right posts, there’s a difference there and it’s a major one and the best way to keep that movement from spreading is to not let people be in contact with it.
Please don’t try to protect people from opinions. Eventually they find out and feel lied to.
They are not just sharing opinions. It’s hate against minorities. As overused it may sound, this is one of times when it’s really hate and not just irony.
Every opinion might sound as ideological or hateful or aggressive or oppressive by some… Of course, everyone is biased about what they deem acceptable.
Totally get that these posts offend people - and that maybe that was the intention. On the other hand, poorly rationed opions from another place of the spectrum offend the far-right or the far-left…
If it would be nice if it would be just one or two unintentional offending posts, but there’s a lot of examples even in the post, where it’s clear that they want to offend people, and i would like to keep this place away from intentionally offending content.
If you want to be protected from hateful people, use beehaw. I came to ShitJustWorks specifically because they don’t block instances at a whim.
This instance is not very different for lemmygrad in terms of how hateful they are and lemmygrad is defederated, so see no reason why this one shouldn’t be defederated.
There’s a difference between opinions based on facts and opinions people pretend are based on facts like you see on the extremes. Funny you should say “people will feel lied to” when both the alt-right and tankies lie to argue.
Totally concur. But let’s face it, you cannot make these “arguments” go aways by sweeping them under the carpet. They exist. People learned how to to deal with them. Bluny put: If you know bs arguments all along they don’t catch you by surprise and “convince” you.
No, if the users are spamming this server then block them. I don’t like the idea of blocking jerks just cause they’re jerks on their own server
They’re not just jerks on their own server and the goal is to prevent the jerkification of our instance over time.
I think I’m a nay - I’m torn. Basically I don’t want to play the only ace card we have… Seems like an escalation, but I’m also qualified n00b and struggling to see how they’re leaking across - other than with inflammatory replies
Aye
The sooner the better because it’s inevitable with our instance’s rules
