I’ve never heard of frats in western Europe akin to anything that the US has. England and some other places love posh boarding schools, which is not at all the same as a frat. It’s shitty in other ways.
David Cameron fucked a pig in his frat, the event was called “Piggate” when it was leaked to the press. The European fraternities are just more up-market, called “societies” and “clubs” and styled in overtly upper class ways compared to what the americans style them as. It’s the same thing though.
Compared to American frats they’re quite different though. The societies and clubs like that (which are mainly an English thing) are more like an expanded skull & bones society, as far as I understand it. American frats, from what I know of them, are present at basically every college and much more accessible that the secret societies for the wealthiest kids in England - or whatever the variant is in other parts of western Europe.
I’ve never heard of Gamma Phi Delta in Berlin College (because I think colleges are very much an Anglo thing?) having some big hazing scandal or whatever.
If the argument is just “clubs for rich people exist” then yeah? But that’s not really helpful for OOPs question.
Aren’t frats present at most colleges, and aren’t they much easier to get into?
OP isn’t asking about “clubs for rich people” which seems what you’re reducing this to be. Frats focus much more on providing housing to members as well, don’t they?
And it really seems more like an Anglo thing. I mentioned the boarding schools to begin with, because I knew of Eton and the English with their weird stuff. But that’s not the same as having these “societies” at every university - and especially not for whole of western Europe.
I don’t know, show me a french, a German or a Spanish frat that’s similar to the American stuff. Calling the different semi-secret societies that exist everywhere the same as an American dudebro frat seems quite odd to me. They’re not the same thing.
I don’t see how the pigfucker club from Eton for England’s wealthiest pricks is the same as an American frat, nor is it the standard of indoctrination for western Europe. I’m sure every country has some get together for rich and wealthy kids, but saying they’re similar to the American greek frats seems incorrect on many levels.
I suppose you could respond by also explaining how the things you’re thinking of are the same as an American frat. But I guess I’d start by just giving examples.
A group of young white guys networking, drinking, and hazing each other is not unique to the US and I don’t even know why it’s being suggested as such. At best they’re not as common because people in Europe seem to have a sense of the common good and will ban them. But they do exist. It’s not about them being the exact same because obviously cultural distinctions exist. Just because Burschenschaft dresses it up as Medieval sword duels doesn’t mean it’s not a similar thing.
Thank you for the link to Reuzegom. Again it seems like it’s an outlier and not a common thing for Europe. Reading about it, it seems more like a studentverbindung than an american frat. But for some reason they’re called the same thing.
I found this list of frats and sororities in france, which, again, make it seem like not a very common thing. There it’s more a product of french canadians, and even then the list is incredibly short.
A group of young white guys networking, drinking, and hazing each other is not unique to the US and I don’t even know why it’s being suggested as such
good thing that’s not what I’m saying. I feel like I’ve made it very clear that’s not what I’m saying.
Just because Burschenschaft dresses it up as Medieval sword duels doesn’t mean it’s not a similar thing.
I mean it does though? OP is asking about american fraternities and uses a picture of a hazing ritual. It’s pretty clear it’s not “hey do rich people meet and network in clubs at institutions for education?” Reducing it to “there are clubs for rich people everywhere” is inane, especially when american fraternities are - as I’ve already said - much more widespread and much more accessible to the common person.
Yes and dangerous hazing rituals exist in European fraternities. It may seem more widespread in the US because the US is more homogeneous than the group of European countries. Plus the media like movies and all push it to the front.
I’m not ignoring what you write. You edited your post while i was writing the previous one. I’m not itemizing your posts and replying line by line. You said the OP is talking about hazing in a frat, I too posted about hazing in a frat. You said American frats seem more common and I said it seems that way because we’re more homogeneous and the media focuses on it. I replied directly to what you said.
I said OP is talking about american frats and accompanied the post with a picture of a hazing ritual in an american frat. We both know that’s not the same as talking exclusively about hazing rituals. I then, in more than one post responding to you, mentioned how they seem much more widespread. I likewise said this initially
I don’t see how the pigfucker club from Eton for England’s wealthiest pricks is the same as an American frat, nor is it the standard of indoctrination for western Europe. I’m sure every country has some get together for rich and wealthy kids, but saying they’re similar to the American greek frats seems incorrect on many levels.
As well as
I mean it does though? OP is asking about american fraternities and uses a picture of a hazing ritual. It’s pretty clear it’s not “hey do rich people meet and network in clubs at institutions for education?” Reducing it to “there are clubs for rich people everywhere” is inane, especially when american fraternities are - as I’ve already said - much more widespread and much more accessible to the common person.
Which was present before the edit. I’m sorry I edit my post for clarification, I don’t expect immediate responses, and I don’t have the good words ready from the start.
edit: Yet you keep returning to “there are clubs where rich people network and do rich people shit” which is incredibly reductive. I have said a couple of times that frats are also much more widespread in america and focus on housing as well as they are more available to laypeople. All of these things are true and do make them different. We’ve also strayed far from the initial part of 70% of western europes elite being part of fraternities like american frats. At this point we agree that the things are not the same. I don’t disagree that at least 70% of all rich assholes everywhere are members of some sort of club where they do rich people shit, but, again, that seems incredibly reductive, and using the same word as for an american frat full of drunken daterapist dudebros seems counterproductive.
In not saying their exactly the same as American fraternities. In fact, I don’t even know what American fraternities are like. I’m just describing how fraternities function in Western Europe. You might not think of them as fraternities, but they fall under the definition of a fraternity.
They are elite associations of university students that are very hard to get into, have extreme hazing practices (every so often someone dies during these rituals) and as I said, 70% of politicians at least in my country are proud ‘alumni’ of these associations. They shape our political climate to an extreme degree.
It is bizarre to me how you’re attacking me because you think I’m wrong when I’m describing how fraternities shape our political climate and then demanding me for proof instead of explaining how I’m supposedly wrong. You could also just ask for clarification if you’re so curious.
It is bizarre to me how you’re attacking me because you think I’m wrong when I’m describing how fraternities shape our political climate and then demanding me for proof instead of explaining how I’m supposedly wrong.
I’m sorry, but if you feel as though being asked questions is an attack, then that’s on you. I’ve explained how I disagree with you. And you were the one who said you didn’t know what to say, why are you mad when I give you suggestions on what would work?
And your argument is: “I haven’t heard of them, so they must not exist”.
The whole purpose of these associations is for their function to be hidden from society, so of course you don’t hear from them if you are not a student here. Maybe interact with my arguments instead of keeping your eyes and ears closed to them and thinking you’re in the right just because.
I’d love to provide you with a nice article that explains everything to you but sadly most media is also owned by frat alumni so it is rare to find any substantial analysis on the political power of these fraternities.
I’ve never heard of frats in western Europe akin to anything that the US has. England and some other places love posh boarding schools, which is not at all the same as a frat. It’s shitty in other ways.
David Cameron fucked a pig in his frat, the event was called “Piggate” when it was leaked to the press. The European fraternities are just more up-market, called “societies” and “clubs” and styled in overtly upper class ways compared to what the americans style them as. It’s the same thing though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_Gaveston_Society
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bullingdon_Club
Compared to American frats they’re quite different though. The societies and clubs like that (which are mainly an English thing) are more like an expanded skull & bones society, as far as I understand it. American frats, from what I know of them, are present at basically every college and much more accessible that the secret societies for the wealthiest kids in England - or whatever the variant is in other parts of western Europe.
I’ve never heard of Gamma Phi Delta in Berlin College (because I think colleges are very much an Anglo thing?) having some big hazing scandal or whatever.
If the argument is just “clubs for rich people exist” then yeah? But that’s not really helpful for OOPs question.
Calling a toff club a “frat” sounds weird. It would be like if John Cena started talking about opening up the bonnet of his car.
Yeah it is weird using the same word but functionally they do the same things and serve the same purpose.
Aren’t frats present at most colleges, and aren’t they much easier to get into?
OP isn’t asking about “clubs for rich people” which seems what you’re reducing this to be. Frats focus much more on providing housing to members as well, don’t they?
And it really seems more like an Anglo thing. I mentioned the boarding schools to begin with, because I knew of Eton and the English with their weird stuff. But that’s not the same as having these “societies” at every university - and especially not for whole of western Europe.
That’s prob in the UK, in Spain i’ve never heard about anything like that
edit: nvm, they do exist, though I think it’s much more lighthearted than in other places, unless maybe with old super rich unis
I don’t know how to respond to this, just because you haven’t heard of them doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
I don’t know, show me a french, a German or a Spanish frat that’s similar to the American stuff. Calling the different semi-secret societies that exist everywhere the same as an American dudebro frat seems quite odd to me. They’re not the same thing.
I don’t see how the pigfucker club from Eton for England’s wealthiest pricks is the same as an American frat, nor is it the standard of indoctrination for western Europe. I’m sure every country has some get together for rich and wealthy kids, but saying they’re similar to the American greek frats seems incorrect on many levels.
I suppose you could respond by also explaining how the things you’re thinking of are the same as an American frat. But I guess I’d start by just giving examples.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Sanda_Dia
Also the reason why you don’t see more German fraternities is WWII. They know it’s not a good look: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/31/austria-dissolve-fraternity-linked-far-right-freedom-party-songbook
A group of young white guys networking, drinking, and hazing each other is not unique to the US and I don’t even know why it’s being suggested as such. At best they’re not as common because people in Europe seem to have a sense of the common good and will ban them. But they do exist. It’s not about them being the exact same because obviously cultural distinctions exist. Just because Burschenschaft dresses it up as Medieval sword duels doesn’t mean it’s not a similar thing.
Thank you for the link to Reuzegom. Again it seems like it’s an outlier and not a common thing for Europe. Reading about it, it seems more like a studentverbindung than an american frat. But for some reason they’re called the same thing. I found this list of frats and sororities in france, which, again, make it seem like not a very common thing. There it’s more a product of french canadians, and even then the list is incredibly short.
good thing that’s not what I’m saying. I feel like I’ve made it very clear that’s not what I’m saying.
I mean it does though? OP is asking about american fraternities and uses a picture of a hazing ritual. It’s pretty clear it’s not “hey do rich people meet and network in clubs at institutions for education?” Reducing it to “there are clubs for rich people everywhere” is inane, especially when american fraternities are - as I’ve already said - much more widespread and much more accessible to the common person.
Yes and dangerous hazing rituals exist in European fraternities. It may seem more widespread in the US because the US is more homogeneous than the group of European countries. Plus the media like movies and all push it to the front.
Why are you continually ignoring what I write?
I’m not ignoring what you write. You edited your post while i was writing the previous one. I’m not itemizing your posts and replying line by line. You said the OP is talking about hazing in a frat, I too posted about hazing in a frat. You said American frats seem more common and I said it seems that way because we’re more homogeneous and the media focuses on it. I replied directly to what you said.
I said OP is talking about american frats and accompanied the post with a picture of a hazing ritual in an american frat. We both know that’s not the same as talking exclusively about hazing rituals. I then, in more than one post responding to you, mentioned how they seem much more widespread. I likewise said this initially
As well as
Which was present before the edit. I’m sorry I edit my post for clarification, I don’t expect immediate responses, and I don’t have the good words ready from the start.
edit: Yet you keep returning to “there are clubs where rich people network and do rich people shit” which is incredibly reductive. I have said a couple of times that frats are also much more widespread in america and focus on housing as well as they are more available to laypeople. All of these things are true and do make them different. We’ve also strayed far from the initial part of 70% of western europes elite being part of fraternities like american frats. At this point we agree that the things are not the same. I don’t disagree that at least 70% of all rich assholes everywhere are members of some sort of club where they do rich people shit, but, again, that seems incredibly reductive, and using the same word as for an american frat full of drunken daterapist dudebros seems counterproductive.
In not saying their exactly the same as American fraternities. In fact, I don’t even know what American fraternities are like. I’m just describing how fraternities function in Western Europe. You might not think of them as fraternities, but they fall under the definition of a fraternity. They are elite associations of university students that are very hard to get into, have extreme hazing practices (every so often someone dies during these rituals) and as I said, 70% of politicians at least in my country are proud ‘alumni’ of these associations. They shape our political climate to an extreme degree.
It is bizarre to me how you’re attacking me because you think I’m wrong when I’m describing how fraternities shape our political climate and then demanding me for proof instead of explaining how I’m supposedly wrong. You could also just ask for clarification if you’re so curious.
I’m sorry, but if you feel as though being asked questions is an attack, then that’s on you. I’ve explained how I disagree with you. And you were the one who said you didn’t know what to say, why are you mad when I give you suggestions on what would work?
And your argument is: “I haven’t heard of them, so they must not exist”.
The whole purpose of these associations is for their function to be hidden from society, so of course you don’t hear from them if you are not a student here. Maybe interact with my arguments instead of keeping your eyes and ears closed to them and thinking you’re in the right just because.
I’d love to provide you with a nice article that explains everything to you but sadly most media is also owned by frat alumni so it is rare to find any substantial analysis on the political power of these fraternities.
It’s not? You seem to be unwilling to engage with what I write, so why respond?