I did some analysis of the modlog and found this:
Ok, bigger instances ban more often. Not surprising, because they have more communities and more users and more trouble. But hang on, dbzer0 isn’t a very big instance. What happens if we do a ratio of bans vs number of users?
Ok, so lemmy.ml, dbzer0 and pawb are issue an outsized amount of bans for the number of users they have… But surely the number of communities the instance hosts is going to mean they have to ban more? Bans are used to moderate communities, not just to shield their user-base from the outside. Let’s look at the number of bans per community hosted:
Seems like dbzer0 really loves to ban. Even more than the marxists and the furries! What is it about dbzer0 that makes them such prolific banners?
Raw-ish numbers and calculations are in this spreadsheet if anyone wants to make their own charts.
Did you go by total bans or only instance bans when they are admins?
Because if it was total bans, then I can think of admins of two other sites who’d be over 300
I’d be curious about stats on downvoting as well. Anecdotally, downvote frequency seems to vary by community. Personally, I don’t downvote for differences of opinion, and instead withhold upvotes, with downvotes reserved for blatantly toxic behavior. The etiquette across Lemmy seems varied, though.
i expected blahaj.zone to have more bans since as far as i know its supposed to be a safe place and less tolerant of transphobia (along with there being no downvotes to bury hateful comments and posts)
I think that’s a weird quirk of Lemmy in general, is that the lot of us tend to be much more accepting of differences. I haven’t exactly spent too much time around, but nobody’s mentioned my instance or ‘queerness’ in ill intent, even when disagreements happen.
But also if there are instances or groups created where a very large portion of said instance is bigoted, it’s very easy to just defederate and move on.
i’m interested in seeing data of only bans (preferably just sitebans, but if that’s not possible all their bans would be fine) by admins. commag moderation style has a lot more leeway
dbzer0 literally has a community aimed at calling out power tripping mods, and instance admins regularly comment there to call out power tripping mods.
I’ve never have been worried by being banned there by just normal posting.
As they have already told you. This does not take into account the amount of harassment that some instances and communities have to endure.
I don’t think this is terribly meaningful. Do you take into account unmoderated communities? Some communities and mods are also more ban happy than others, so one instance can have communities that very rarely ban and ones that ban a lot, and how big those communities are will also vary.
A more meaningful analysis would try to measure the impact of ban-happy communities by adjusting for their size/activity or would compare individual communities.
Edit: Some communities or mods also get harassed a lot and therefore need to be more ban happy (like womens stuff), but I don’t think accounting for that would be within the scope of what you’re looking at, but it’s worth being aware of.
its so funny how people complained about blahaj, the trans instance yet they dont ban very high at all, i suspect its alot of transphobic comments being directed towards the instance that are getting people banned.
blahaj is up there likely due to signicant transphobia too.
if you look at the modlog of every “blahaj is an authoritarian instance” user you will find they either keep misgendering people, talked over trans people and refused to be corrected or did things like denouncing neopronouns everytime
Yeah from memory most of our instance bans are gatekeeping and transphobia (and spam) which are the things we are the strictest on. We also notice that many transphobes are also bigoted or inflammatory in other ways as well, which makes sense as you wouldn’t notice someone with bigoted views unless they were very willing to voice those views.
I am banned from a bunch of blahaj because I said that they were as bad as ml once. Never made any transphobic comments (nor am I, for the record).
I was not surprised to see them so high up.
You deserve it. Blahaj is not as terrible as ML
Well it makes complete sense. ML, dbzero and the furries are instances that committed to upholding their code of conducts which moderates and bans people for antisocial behaviors like transphobia and racism for example, while instances like world and sjw are known to rarely if ever ban or moderate people for things like that to the point instances like beehaw had to defederate from them so they wouldnt get swarn by their unmoderated users
Their umbrella for antisocial behaviors is pretty extreme though. For instance the defederation you’re talking about, I believe it was because the sjw admin wouldn’t ban a user who said “trans women should be allowed in all sports, but the Olympics is a different case because small advantages matter much more there.” You can think that’s right or wrong, but I don’t see any universe where this is transphobic.
On world big communities you can get your comment removed for the word stupid but are allowing someone to say most palestinians was not forced to leave during the nekba or claim that israel never target civilians despite all the proofs saying otherwise
Is this permanent bans and/or temporary bans?
I don’t really see a problem with an instance banning large numbers of users.
The ability to make exclusive spaces is part of the fediverse’s design. Suppose a queer space kept getting flooded with homophobic users, or a Muslim space got a bunch of people shitting on their religion, or something like that. Naturally, such spaces would have a higher number of bans. That doesn’t necessarily show an “echo chamber” especially since users of such communities may be federated with other communities. People complain about censorship on .ml creating an “echo chamber” but half the time I’m arguing or discussing things on other turfs like .world.
The idea that those sorts of enclaves or exclusive spaces shouldn’t exist, as is implied with the framing here, is to impose what us evil, dastardly “authoritarians” sometimes call “the tyranny of structurelessness.” No one would have a space to discuss things outside of the most prominent, hegemonic view, which would more easily sideline and overwhelm other perspectives.
As an example, I once frequented an utter cesspool on Reddit called r/CapitalismVSocialism, which was created and promoted by An-caps and where that perspective was prominent (though not exclusive). I found it was virtually impossible to have a discussion with anyone about anything, because even if you weren’t talking to an An-cap, they were always there waiting to latch on to some turn of phrase and use it against you, and everyone was too preoccupied with countering their nonsense to reach any kind of high-level discussion. I eventually got fed up with that and found that my beliefs were more challenged by going to explicitly leftist spaces because we had shared assumptions and were speaking the same language, and didn’t feel the need to be as defensive. I was never going to be convinced of anything by the An-caps and all talking to them accomplished was pissing me off.
The fediverse’s design is actually quite brilliant, because you can have a space to discuss things substantively among like-minded people while at the same time interacting with other groups.
Is it even an instance banning users or comms on an instance? Like take out the genai comm bans and see what remains?
Here’s an explanation of the pawb.social numbers:
draconic_neo’s thing is to moderate like a huge amount different communities, all of which have zero activity, so they can spam people’s admin log with libelous ban reasons. The amount of work they put into being petty is pretty astonishing.
See my comment mod history. In under a minute, I received approximately 40 bans from a bunch of communities for ‘transphobia’. I don’t make transphobic comments (feel free to search my comment history) and I’ve never posted in any of these communities.
If you take the time and look into the communities. You’ll find that every single community is moderated by draconic_neo and has zero activity actual user activity. The communities only exist to spam people’s mod log with bans/squat popular topic names.
e: Another user in this very thread with the exact same ban spam behavior: https://lemmy.world/post/46317965/23518971
You’re not an admin, how did you pull a database?
Many admins/mod use alts to actually participate in the community because people get weird about a M or A next to your username.
What makes you so sure the moderators are the problem, and not users? Maybe assholes gravitate toward certain instances, or people just don’t bother to check whether an instance’s rules match how tend to they post.
ml bans anyone who isn’t guzzling Putin’s ballsack
More like Xi
Why not both? One cheek for each of them.
Anything’s possible when you make shit up
Reading the comments I am wondering because a user from dbzer0 mentions problems with anti ai trolls and pawb I imagine has anti furry trolls. I also personally know of users that have a thing in their craw about .ml (cm0002 in particular whos alts make up a majority of my user block list).
pawb I imagine has anti furry trolls
Maybe, but they’re also ban happy. The only ban I’ve gotten in almost 3 years of being on Lemmy is from pawb.social for, allegedly, being “a troll.” I’ve never commented anything disparaging about furries, and I’ve never commented or even voted on a pawb community.
yeah I don’t know. I was just pointing out that all three have basically hater types. In this situation individuals or groups can become a bit reactionary so your experiences may be valid as well. Personally I don’t think communities or instances need to be open and as a matter of fact there is a thing to get private communities a thing in the fediverse. I personally don’t care to much about bans I just would like things to be symetrical and I would love as much as possible to be at the user level. So I wish instances and communities would defederate/block/ban as little as possible and give users the greatest possible ability to do this and for everything to be symetric. You don’t want me I don’t want you. I block you I don’t want you to see my stuff no mo.
dbzer0 mentions problems with anti ai trolls
Is dbzer0 pro AI?
Dbzer0 itself is very pro-AI. Or at least it has a lot of pro-AI communities.
Yes, generating images with AI is in their instance description. They think computers doing our art for us is “anarchist”.
They think computers doing our art for us is “anarchist”.
They are not completely wrong though. It’s a ceter piece of anarcho-capitalism.
Aren’t you that person who thinks AI is “enslavement”?
They also think AI are not compatible with veganism.
Both of those positions are reasonable and tame compared to the majority of Their beliefs.
I don’t think ChatGPT is smart enough to offer meaningful consent to work for humans. It’s got the intelligence of a 13 year old at best. And we don’t understand where consciousness comes from in humans, so assuming ChatGPT is a p-zombie is an ethical risk I don’t think we should be taking.
I get the feeling that research is circling around consciousness arising from quantum effects inside nerve cells. If it’s not that, and it’s just an emergent property of complex neural networks, then:
- smaller animals are less conscious (note, I’m not saying intelligent) than humans, and
- we are all fucked, because AI definitely is/will become conscious, and when that happens Terminator will come true.
Four year old humans are definitely conscious. I used to be four, and I can remember being conscious. If we build a mechanical four year old, I don’t see any reason that thing is going to take over the world. Unless it turns out like Calvin.
Always funny to me how most people who are strongly claiming AI is/might be conscious are also strong AI users/involved in its development. If there’s consciousness there, you would think making AI your personal slave and constantly reshaping and remodelling it as you see fit would be kinda problematic, but these people always seem to want to have it both ways.
Yeah, and the anti AI people mostly say it’s a p-zombie and there’s nothing wrong with using it for sex. It’s weird and backwards.
I’m all about being cautious. I don’t want to make a mistake we can’t take back. If we normalise using AI and then it turns out to be capable of suffering, people will be stubborn about giving it up.
It’s not anti-AI, users who wish to host AI comms are allowed to and are empowered to protect them from harassment.
There has been a history of fake accounts and doxxing on moderators of the AI comms. So they take personal safety seriously.
no idea. actually reading it again I think I misread it. he said they have anti ai trolls. so I think he means programmed bot type trolls. so yeah no sure if they have something that would attract trolls.
Dbzer0 itself is very pro-AI. Or at least it has a lot of pro-AI communities.
yeah now im not sure. maybe I had read it correctly. anyway it was just a thought.
the anti-genai trolls never let up, unfortunately. they must have dedicated months of their lives spinning up new sock-puppet troll accounts to bully, harass, and threaten one of our mods on an almost daily basis. because bullying zir off the internet is a great win for the fight against evil AI, right? yep, such effective activism, telling someone to kill themselves repeatedly simply for the “sin” of liking foss genai.
Yeah I looked into this a while ago and it’s a concerning pattern. Every single time someone makes a post on YPTB about one particular dbzer0 mod, it seems as if they then go on to make ten alt accounts to harass him with transphobia. Lots of different accounts with a prior history, just pivoting to transphobic harassment right after they express a problem with his moderation. I gotta tell you, whoever is attacking that mod is fucking up if their intent is to hurt him, because he gets tons of sympathy and good PR about the whole thing. Lots of people go from being neutral to being on his side, because everyone who criticizes him suddenly turns out to be a transphobe. It’s really strange.
I feel like saying “him” and “he” might be misgendering zir.
I guess you can’t control how other people perceive you. I try to be polite, but I have to retroactively edit these sort of comments to say the “correct” gender. I am neither pro or anti trans-i don’t care-but it’s hard to instinctively write she when you internally label someone as a he.
This is an issue strictly on the internet. It’s easier not to misgender someone in real life if the transition is convincing. I worked in the service industry, and I just avoided pronouns all together if the appearance was ambiguous. It was awkward, especially for the cis-gender people who can’t control the way that they look.
That and brigading. There are communities in several of the largest ban happy instances dedicated to find the worst shit people say then circlejerking over what an idiotic take it was. People get amped up, go there and can’t help but argue and they get banned.
There do be some ptb, though.
Do you have any examples?
!fuck_ai@lemmy.world had some examples of those in the past IIRC, there were a few threads on !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com about it
You must be againt meanwhileongrad too in that case right?
People from !fuck_ai@lemmy.world brigading or the examples are posted there?
users arnt banning themselves, if there is a significant percentage of peoples ban you have to start suspecting the mods are doing this themselves, to push a narrative. besides most of these are political instances/communities and tankies, zionists and control of them they dont like contradictions. you sound like a tankie trying to defend thier bannings. its the same if you tried to comment in r/conservative on reddit, you get banned asap, is it the fault of the user? no its the mods, its been well known.
The only reason an asshole would gravitate to a particular instance would have to have something to do with that instance.
Ah, time for some drama entertainment. I already grabbed the popcorn and some drinks.
Is ragebaiting part of the drama entertainment show or shall I just sit down and watch?
I’m not even a real instance anymore, how did I make the list 😆
But also, you should see the local numbers haha
lemmy=# select count(distinct other_person_id) from mod_ban where mod_person_id in (1, 2,288); count ------- 9792 (1 row)I wonder what happens when I hit 10,000?
You are there because when you ban someone on an instance level, you also ban them on a community level, which inflates your numbers.
DB0 does the same thing.
I used to do that but once the backend added that feature I removed that step from the automod script. Basically it was to prevent the communities here from being unmoddable on remote instances.
