It’s funny because I agree and disagree at the same time. I’ve had varying levels of “there’s way more nuance to this” and “how the fuck is everyone complicating this???” throughout my life and have generally come to the conclusion that it’s much more complex than that in that everything is both more nuanced and more simple at the same time because politics really is that stupid.
However, in getting involved in political circles and actually getting to know some legitimate decision makers toward the top, some of these fuckers are way more stupid than we think. Like, alarmingly so. I’ve had moments where some GOP dumbfuck is doing some evil shit and I’m like “I don’t think they’re doing this maliciously” and some of my more partisan left-ish friends get all offended think I’m defending them, when really it’s so much worse; they’re doing it because they’re legitimately really fucking stupid… and they’re part of world leadership. Don’t get me wrong, some of them are both stupid and an asshole, but at the end of the day, people in general tend to get the overall picture of politics wrong because it’s way more nuanced in how fucking stupid it is.
One more fun thought for y’all: many of the really dumb legislators I’ve met in the past predate the current GOP alignment. And you see how much dumber the current GOP is versus the GOP of not even a decade ago? Well…
This is the truth I see as well. I’m around a lot of upper crust events, old money decision maker millionaires. I’m taking pictures so I overhear a lot I probably shouldn’t, literally the fly on the wall.
They are not doing things maliciously on purpose. It’s more like what George Carlin said, it’s a club and we ain’t in it. They are ignorant to what the upper middle-class and below actually do and they really don’t care to learn or can’t grasp it. They do things based more on their perspectives in an echo chamber. They don’t make friends outside that circle.
Ask them a basic question from highschool science and they will respond with a very wrong answer with absolute confidence. I’ve met homeless people on the street with more intelligence.
You have to experience things or work for them to gain any knowledge.
Any sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from malice.
I think there’s a word for that: negligence
Yep. The older I get, the less of a distinction I see between the two. Stupidity and malice always seem to come hand-in-hand.
Evil geniuses and idiots with a heart of gold are mostly just Hollywood inventions. In the real world, intelligence and morality are highly correlated together.
abraca-fuck-you.
Basically: Hanlon’s Razor
people respond to incentives.
that’s all you need to know.
take the good and the evil, the smart and the stupid out of it, and it will make a lot more sense.
most people would be just as ‘evil’ as who you are talking about given they had the same levels of power. you false belief is that these people ‘in power’ are somehow superhuman and can resist the temptations and abuses that come with the power they have… they can’t, and don’t, and most folks are like that. it’s exceptional when someone doesn’t abuse their power.
There’s so much to address here, it’s crazy. I’ll give it a shot, I guess.
Incentive in this context is not really that relevant. Sure, Incentivization of systems and all that, but in terms of actual outcomes and how people make decisions, incentives are a terrible predictor of behavior and motive. Additionally, to try and say the one factor is all that matters is ridiculous.
To dismiss morality and my original subject of how dumb some legislators are, conflate incentive and motive as one thing and the only legitimate explanation of evil legislative decisions, then conclude that people are inherently(or even just predisposed to) evil because power is uhh… yeah, that’s pretty wild.
You also state that I believe people can/do resist abusing their power. This is a non-starter as nothing I said even suggests such a thing, you made that up. On top of that, I can explicitly state that is, in fact, not my position on the topic of abuse of power. I already reject the framing of power and abuse of it as presented in your comment before any argument is even made. There’s so much more to it than just “power corrupts”. And power isn’t even a factor for many people anyway, even in the context of being in a position of power. People as a whole really aren’t that simple.
The only thing I was getting at is that there are people in decision-making positions that appear to make a decision because they’re evil or corrupt or whatever else, but in reality, they’re just really dumb. This doesn’t exclude other factors, nor does this make a definitive statement about reality, it’s just an observation from my experience in politics challenging a common incredulity that “they can’t really be that stupid” to which I’m backing up the common saying “never attribute to malice what can sufficiently be explained by stupidity”.
it’s exceptional when someone doesn’t abuse their power.
Which is what us anarchists have been trying to tell everyone forever.
Nobody can be trusted with power. Nobody. The only real solution is to prevent the accumulation of power in the first place.
oh and how do you go about that exactly?
you guys are always going on about these big principles, but you never have actionable plans.
turns out pretty much ever social structure has power, or do you anarchists not have leaders and figure heads you all worship and adore and fight over who is best living the ‘legacy’ of who who are the ‘true’ anarchists… hmm almost as if your idealistic theory fails even among it’s own adherents…
1936 Catalonia during the Spanish Civil War organized an Anarchist society with over 3 million participants, and they documented much of how exactly they ran it, right down to how they kept the electric trams for public transport going (there is a fantastic book embedded at the bottom of that article, Collectives in the Spanish Revolution by Gaston Leval, which offers more details on other aspects of how they operated that society).
It’s a fantastic historical event we can learn from and build upon, and it bore out quite effectively that a decentralized society functions quite well.
Nonsense. I’d build a perfectly fine utopia!
After culling that 99.9% of the troublesome population.
/jk
Most politicians do evil shit because the system of capitalism compels them to. There is no way to “win” capitalism without being evil. If you aren’t willing to do whatever it takes to win, you will inevitably be eaten by someone who is.
What an insipid thought.
Hurting bad people is good. Helping bad people is bad. We need to do a lot more hurting bad people as a society.
Maga translation: “kill the gays”
Leftist translation: invite the Nazis to a piano recital.
I’ll give you that. Leftists in America are centrists capitalist Democrats with colorful fascist like beliefs, but definitely not Nazis
Edit: I forgot the /s, sarcasm can be hard to tell. I think Biden was Trump just DNC approved
centrists capitalist Democrats
Are not leftists anywhere.
-A USonian leftist.
They are doing nothing to stop it though and actively supporting it.
No they just run interference on behalf of nazis
only problem is that most modern socieites reward you for helping bad people or actively help bad people ( THATS why we have so many shitty politicians in so many high places) and punishes you for ALL the hurt thst you conduct against people , whether they be gopd or bad.
“Now, there’s one thing you might have noticed I don’t complain about: politicians. Everybody complains about politicians. Everybody says they suck. Well, where do people think these politicians come from? They don’t fall out of the sky. They don’t pass through a membrane from another reality. They come from American parents and American families, American homes, American schools, American churches, American businesses and American universities, and they are elected by American citizens. This is the best we can do folks. This is what we have to offer. It’s what our system produces: Garbage in, garbage out. If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you’re going to get selfish, ignorant leaders. Term limits ain’t going to do any good; you’re just going to end up with a brand new bunch of selfish, ignorant Americans. So, maybe, maybe, maybe, it’s not the politicians who suck. Maybe something else sucks around here… like, the public. Yeah, the public sucks. There’s a nice campaign slogan for somebody: ‘The Public Sucks. F*ck Hope.’” – George Carlin
Exactly, trump is the president we deserve, he embodies all our traits as a nation. He could be tried and hanged tomorrow and it won’t change the fact that most of his opponents are only against him because he’s not bribing them too.
Preach.
Worst thing we have done is what is the truth? And validating everyone’s opinion and not just telling them they are fucking stupid.
i can never tell which is supposed to be the original and which the reply on these posts. the higher up one is the original? but it has a thread bar next to it?
Yeah it’s fucking atrocious
The one that’s been clicked on by the user is the one without the thread bar. Top to bottom is the order of posts.
Unless it’s a retweet, then it’s bottom-up for one and top-down for the rest.
deleted by creator
There are material conditions to causing the actions which people think of as evil. Material conditions explain virtually everything about the actions of humans within capitalism. “We can’t possibly know how people do evil things, they just are naturally evil in an unexplained way” is just admitting you don’t know what material conditions would cause evil actions to happen. That is a *you* problem if you feel the same. You need to learn about dialectical materialism if you agree with their line of thought. This is your brain when you are ignorant of the incentives capital, both fiduciary and non-fiduciary kinds, does within capitalist societies.
A couple of really solid book if you like this:
a history of the world in seven cheap things by raj patel
exocapitalism by marek poliks
Yes, it’s human made causes, not supernatural, so of course they need human made solutions. Like human trafficking and infections will not get fixed by incantations, but can be fixed with data-backed solutions. Use Sagan’s baloney detection kit to figure out what has backing and peer reviewed, and is best for healthy, happy humanity of the majority, no just the wealthy owners.
Yeah the system lets “evil” float to the top. Different systems would encourage different results.
So capitalism is a problem for everyone in the world, but there’s something more fundamental happening in the US. Capitalism is just an excuse, but people really do not give a fuck about their communities in the US, or at least a small minority do care. 90% of people of all walks of life, they just wanna make a million dollars and they won’t flinch to kill a neighbor for it. Hell, half of them won’t flinch to kill a family member for a million bucks.
Oh I kinda hate this attitude. Like shit, even evil has lots of nuance to it. And understanding that nuance can help you oppose it, or protect yourself from it.
True, but at a certain point the time and attention diverted into the nuances within evil becomes a big component of the banality part.
I think the issue is people think “debatters” are operating in good faith. The nuances is for the crowd not for the grifters.
Yes, that certain point isnt anywhere near where we’re currently at.
The line is a dot where we’re at.
Only for those who’ve given up on rational thought and only want to react.
Kind of like those who fall for fascist propaganda.
and there’s different kinds of evil, not just one.
ya like I remember reading this one comment that talked about how people were not examining the LGNTQIA+ Ban in Niger with nuance.
Like listen I get it The Nigerien People are being evil by issuing and enforcing that ban , AND YES I dont think that anyone who reads this comment should not give aid to, advocate for or go to Niger but you have to understand where they are coming from. BAck when americans and french were occupying the government of Niger with a Nigerien puppet government(and the puppet government was there MOSTLY to conduct Unequal Exchange Trade Deals) there were a lot of new , western ideas thst were forced onto the Nigerien people like seeing 2SLGBTQIA+ peoples as just part of the Common People…but the problem with this is that the averahe Nigerien person grew up around people where very conservative ways of thinking were the norm. Conservative ideas like ‘if you let the gays live or cooperate with them you and your family will be cursed. Or youll magicaly get ‘gayed’ yourself.’ Heck people in the country of Nigeria the next country over think the same way. Ive been to Nigeria and my relatives live there too and most of them ive talked to have this very conservative way of thinking sadly. So the puppet government was outting ideas on the people which were not widely held by the people there. So when the Nirgerien military couped out the puppet government and replaced it with a russian-backed puppet government , and we all know how anti-2SLGBTQIA+ the russians are, THATS what made it possible flr an anti-2SLGBTQIA+ law to be passed and enforced theee for so easily. But a lot of this current backwardness in Africa can be originated from the times of both Caliphate and European colonialism. The cultural and economic developments of most Africans was stunted by these invasions , kidnapping, emslavement, resource milking, and the unequal exchanges that occurred during these times. Most Africans therefore see it as almost impossible to live side-by-side in peace witj either europeans or even with Muslims (thats why there is a lot of Christian vs. Muslim conflict in Africa). And we can all conclude that if Africans find it tough to live beside peaceful Christians , Muslims or europeans they damn as well sure see it as being tough to live beside peaceful people who live with their gender identitiies and sexualities in ways that were rarely seen as common amongst Africans even 2 or 3 decades ago.
Think about what the averahe African person has been through over the past millenia or two…The average Christian, Muslim , or European that the average African person has encountered whether in the past and maybe even today is one who was hostile to them so of course the Africans eventually have developed a distrust of them and of many outsiders. So of course they have developed a general distrust of ALL outsiders even people who try to live by or bring in from foreign lands these ideas or things related to being 2SLGBTIQIA+
Norman Finklestein said the same thing about why he supported the Houthis sven though the slogan of the Houthis was ‘[REDACTED] to all Americans, [REDACTED] To All Jews’. Normam basically said: ‘Think about the average Houthi person. Think about what the average Houthi person has been through over the last few centuries. Think abiut the average type of Jew oe average type of american that a Houthi has encountered. … the average Houthi has only encountered Jews and americans that have blown up their families, their pets , their spouses and their children. So OF COURSE theyre gonna have animosity towards most americans and most jews. But wjen you think very carefully about it the slogans of the Houthis is completelt irrelevant to what they do today. The Houthis are slowing down the Genocide in Palestine through thwir blockade and missiles . If there was a group that back in the 30s and 40s were slowing down the Holocaust but their slogan was something stupid like ‘Everyone Should Drink Farts’ do you think we would give a flying fuck about their stupid slogans? No! Of course not. The Houthis have a stupid slogan ya I get it. But its irrelevant. Theyre doingg what they oughta be doing which is stalling a Genocide so I dont really have to care about how smart or dumb or excluse or inclusive their slogans are’
TLDR. Both evil and good have A LOOOOT of nuance because humans are very nuanced , emotional , and illogical creatures. Humans are simulfaenously the smartest and the stupidest species Ive ever encountered .
after a stint at ministry of education i’m convincing you don’t even need to be evil or stupid to cause catastrophic consequences. that’s baked into the institutions themselves.
Careful, this is his conservatives think too… othering people can be dangerous if you don’t do the ground work to understand why you think what you do. Metacognition is required
I think it comes from the realization that dispels so many assumptions you didn’t know you had.
The realization that nobody knows what they are doing.
Humanity is perhaps the most valuable blessing and cursed atrocity ever conceived on this big ROUND GEOSPHERE earth.
(Note the All Caps)
Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence becomes, ‘Why not both?’.
it becomes “have you met my cousin
KevinMaverick?”
As a video I watched the other day says, “it’s that simple”
A lot of people are stupid, and there are a lot of people with anti-social personality disorders out there willing to manipulate stupid people.
Fixed
Me as a teenager: Someday, reality television is going to destroy the world.
Me in my 20s: That was a silly thing to think. People like different things, and there’s good in everyone.
Me now: A reality TV star is literally destroying the world.
I actually think it’s more based on greed but yeah same.
Well that and racism.
Greed is evil
It’s nuance but yeah they are in the same family.
I want you to point out a single time where greed was a net positive.
Greed is just a motivator. The word can is important here. It can lead to innovation and, sometimes, make the world better. I think that is the exception more than the rule, though. Most of the time, unchecked greed leads to awful behavior that enshittifies and hurts everything it touches. Ford is one example of the nuance. While Ford did not invent the assembly line, it helped refine and scale the moving assembly line into what we now think of as modern mass manufacturing. That let Ford build cars faster and cheaper, which had a huge effect on manufacturing in general.
The higher wages are another complicated part of it. Ford’s famous $5 day came with an eight-hour shift, not longer hours, but it was not just because Ford suddenly cared about workers. The assembly line was miserable, turnover was extremely high, and paying people more was a way to keep enough workers around to make the whole system function. It was good for the workers in some ways, but it was still motivated by making more money. And Ford’s “Sociological Department” was invasive as hell, since the company was looking into workers’ personal lives and deciding who qualified for the full pay.
But no, I am not remotely pro-billionaire. If anything, I am pretty firmly the opposite. I just do not think every situation is completely black and white. Self-interest can occasionally result in something broadly useful, even when the person doing it is not especially good and the system around it is still harmful. That does not make greed good. It just means the outcome and the motive are not always the same thing.
