If anything I’ve read too much theory comrade. I’m fully familiar with the arguments you’re citing, though personally I disagree. I disgree with the third-word The Leninist concept of labor aristocracy, though useful (which is not to say we can’t disagree with Lenin: he was a man of his time and what wrong on several points, though not the most important), I think often gets used in a really metaphysical and binary way. The Western proletariat certainly has advantageous conditions of life which are due to imperialism. That goes without saying. However no-where in what Lenin writes, not according to class interest, must the Western proletariat necessarily perceive I think people often make far too much of the idea that the Western working class consciously knows exactly what its supposedly reactionary interests are in that way. That’s not the way that class is lived or experienced. At times that might come through, such as when they vote for the far right in elections during a recession and high levels of immigration, but I think it’s a big assumption to suppose that their have a perfect understanding of their class interest when they do that. They certainly don’t seem to have a rational grasp on it when you speak to them, and so the only way of supporting the argument then seems to me to be to argue that there is some subconscious, structural or superstructural determination of their reactionary positions as in their class interest whether they are conscious of this or not; but this seems deeply unscientific and unverifiable to me - regardless, I think there a bunch of basic arguments, including from Marx himself, which make clear that it is the very nature of capitalism, understood in terms of its class system, which makes the class interests of the working class opposed to that of their bourgeoisie.

The Western proletariat does have a class interest in ending capitalism. The large majority of them have not seen their living standards increase since the 70s, and I strongly believe that their conditions of life would be far healthier and more fulfilling were they to live in socialist and communist societies. Otherwise my fear is that we’re using a very reductive understanding of what class interest or quality of life means, making it excessively consumerist, thereby reproducing mystifying capitalist categories. My fear is that it devolves in a stereotype of vulgar materialism, as opposed to the far more open method of historical materialism which Marx uses (I’m not going to touch on dialectical materialism as that’s more controversial a concept).

Practically, it seems to negate a really basic and essential for of solidarity, and would suggest that every communist in the West should give up, leave the West, or wish for the death of their loved ones. Even practically I don’t see it as a coherent strategy, given not only the previous comment but also because the idea that the working classes of the Global South are consciously very progressive politically is unfortunately often not the case, which is clear to anyone who has lived outside of the West. This is ofc a different point to whether or not there are geopolitical and global economic processes which lead certain geopolitical blocs or their working class populations to take certain views and positions which are progressive as historical material movements. For instance I can simultaneously say at Hamas and the Houthis, in their domestic contexts, are high reactionary in a bunch of ways, while also recognizing that their struggles against Israel and US imperialism are very progressive as far as geopolitics goes. I’d argue that Russia is more ambiguous. I still think that a fully successful communist revolution must be global and so will require a revolution in the imperial core, as Marx, Engels, Lenin, and most communists have thought.

I also think there’s some ambiguity in what we mean by ‘strong’ and ‘develop past neoliberalism’ in what you’ve written. Neoliberalism was a political process of change in policy to reestablish conditions of profitability through programs of austerity. It’s not a different kind of mode of production. It’s still capitalism. This is historical and therefore can, and will, end. Other modes of production will emerge. So I guess you might be suggesting that the West will simply go fascist? I’m also add that I don’t think that revolutions are simply matters of the military strength of the power, but broader socio-economic conditions, though if the question is whether the conditions of the working class will need to become more critical before revolutionary conditions emerge, then I’d certainly agree. Nevertheless that doesn’t imply that the immediate target should be the immiseration of the Western working class.

Obviously this is a theoretical disagreement, not a personal attack. Feel free to let me know what you think comrade.

I’m just not seeing the argument apart from a pessimistic/accelerationist argument. Fascism is not going to make construction of socialism easier; I don’t see how it won’t make it immeasurably more difficult. Even if fascism is inevitable, you’d also have to argue that it should be sped up, which is where it just doesn’t seem like a serious argument to me, because surely the European working class should be given and requires more time to develop?

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Yeah not to suggest that leftists have not always had something of a tendency for division and degeneration into critique to the detriment of constructive solidarity, but this is also not sufficient as an explanation in my opinion. If anything, I’d argue that the contemporary version of this phenomenon, especially in a country life America, is deeply mediated by the social groups that radical groups is emerging out of, and fact it is occurring in a cultural and intellectual climate that is still (and has been since the late 80s), not simply anti-Marxist/communist but actually post-communist. We might nuance this by noting an uptick in interest in socialism among the young and working class, but we should not overemphasize the scale or influence of this. Nor should this lead us to lose sight of the fact that a lot of the young people who identify as radical do so in a way that can be quite vague, and have more to do with individual lifestyle aesthetics than a sense of ‘calling’ for the militant path, nor a sense of direct exploitation. This is partly due to the greater presence or visibility in popular culture of ideas that are more just post-modern liberal identity politics marked for the sake of capitalism, and the corresponding greater influence of radleft and anti-marxist poststructural thinkers in what is presented as radical thought. Which should remind everyone that Marxist and Communist politics are not going to be bred in Universities any more. Marxist historians don’t control the history department as much as they used to in some placed. This is not a personal criticism of all these people but more a recognition of the different reasons, conditions and paths that form of the context of people’s experience of radical politics or thought.

What is more significant is the increased level of labor movement activity. A bolshevik style party cannot simply be willed into existence. It is not a vanguard phenomenon (by definition) because it is ‘above’ or separate to the working class like a set of generals or the state, which would be to misunderstand the military metaphor, but because it is supposed to position itself at the forefront of working-class struggle. It is suppose to identify the key areas of struggle and potential and to act accordingly. So it strikes me that American Bolshevism (album title) would have to be born more fully out of the concrete struggle between an emerging American labor movement, in conjunction and synthesis with groups who also emphasize imperialism, colonialism and neocolonialism, racist and gender and LGBT+ struggles.

Alot of these dynamics reinforce themselves in vicious ways too. Bad interpersonal relationships can generate bad politics and vice-versa.

For what its worth, by far the least sectarian environments I’ve encountered where ones where different militants from different orgs had to collectively organize or help on the group in relation to on-the-ground labor struggles in work places.

I’m not sure why you feel the need to be aggressive comrade. What you’ve described is certainly a real and alienating phenomenon, though I’m guessing you are making reference to the American trotskyist culture, which is somewhat distinct from those in other countries, largely because the history is different, and American trostkyists seem to have been less connected to working class organizations and under even more pressure to conform to Cold War narratives and positions. I’m more familiar with the Latin American and European cases, in which they are by far the most seriously present communist groups in those countries. For example a lot of people here love repping France every time there’s another episode of social unrest, but do not realize that a lot of the organization is being done by trot groups. Again, there are a lot of them, and i’d agree that most are very far from great, but they would agree with that statement themselves.

On the newspaper point: there’s nothing wrong with trying to get literature out there. The question is more one of form. Again, I can think of as many ML and weird left-com and Maoist groups who do the same thing. If that’s sufficient for you to judge all Trots on that basis, then it should be for those other groups, which I suspect is not the case.

Kind of weird and 3edgy4me how that’s not really related to my point but go-off I guess. Kind of weird and disturbing honestly to be wishing (it seems) for their collective demise.

I’m not a trot but as someone who has known alot of them, honestly in this day and age if you’re really under the impression that most people who thinks of themselves as trots are going to become neoconservatives then honestly my suspicion is that you do not actually know many. It might be worth pointing out that while the most annoying and sectarian, indeedly dogmatically detached self-described communists I’ve met are Trotskyist, so are several of the more serious, capable, dedicated militants I’ve met.

If you really wanna spend your time swinging against them instead of considering forming solidarity over a common Marxist and Leninist tradition (you might not think that they are leninists, but they certainly think they are) and discussing non-sectarian methods of organizing, then with respect comrade I really feel your point of view is limited and needs to develop, though I don’t know how much experience you actually have engaging with, or actually trying to organize with, trots.

Whether you agree with them or not, most actual militants who are Trotskyists have their ideals in the right place. On a moral or ethical level, most of them are motivated by the same disgust with capitalist society and same hopes for a communist society as other communists. On a political level they are normally also self-consciously Leninist. In fact the reason they have such a tendency to splits and factions is because there’s an almost theological emphasis on the need to recreate continuously that genesis of the Bolshevik through splits with those they perceive (even if metaphorically) as Mensheviks and reformists, so that the part remains in a correct revolutionary position necessary at the revolutionary conjuncture. I’m in strong ideological disagreement on a bunch of points, and don’t really like their culture, including that of their interpersonal relationships, but frankly that’s not a problem unique to Trotskysists (Maoists, MLs and anarchists I’m looking at you).

Also, frankly, there’s no surer way to alienate potential communists from what you’re doing that to be beefing over the political conflicts in the Soviet Union of the 20s and 30s. I’m not really able to see it as anything other than self-indulgent, given that it seems obvious that a mature position would include very serious critiques of both Trotskyism and the USSR (for the record, if you talk to more intelligent Trots, they often have several quite scathing critiques of several of Trotsky’s positions).

Interesting example of how neoliberal strategies of extending the reach of financial instruments seems to inevitably come for the lower and middle classes’ (or broad working class’s) savings.

I haven’t had the time to look at the proposals in any detail, but in essence, it seems that he’s just restating the classic economic logic that the source of investment is savings, and so if there is a mismatch between them, this will cause a negative output gap in growth, both due to demand and suppl-side factors. It is also obviously motivated by the concerns of mainstream economists that the lagging productivity (in particular of labor, because labour is the source of all value and how they form a common unit of value and productivity measurement, as Marx understood) is a serious issue and that AI is the way to deal with it. Also interesting the classic decrepit European realization that they are falling behind the US and China (and Russia, for that matter) on these fronts. Though it is strange how that ignores other key factors determining investment, like expected returns and interest rates (which are rising). Also, if private businesses are already unwilling to invest because they know that savings and income are too low, and people not willing enough to engage in borrowing sprees, to make their expected returns on investment profitable, then how would an investment fund financed with savings deal with this issue? He might argue that more efficient capital markets and new investment vehicles leverage savings might deal with that, but it is again not clear to me that the private sector is going to be that motivated. Most of the interest of private firms so far in AI has been either in superficial labor-saving areas like branding, website design, and potentially in more efficient systems of labor surveillance, monitoring, control and time-management, as opposed to any real tremendous gains in real labor productivity, though the future is ofc an unknown country. It also seems to ignore the naturally monopolistic tendencies of a sector like investment in advanced AI software and hardware, which would not suggest to me that the Europeans can easily compete with the US or China, who have a head-start in terms of concentration, advantages of scale and greater levels of government support.

Funny also how none of the French liberals are asking which social group’s savings are going to bear the brunt of this. There is ofc no mention of the trillions in the bourgeoisie’s offshore bank accounts. Given the high rates of taxes (at least perceived) in France already it’s not clear how this would be popular with anybody.

Daddy chill

It might also just accelerate the fascicisation of Europe, which is likely good for no-one, let alone for Europe’s working class. Unless one’s holds to some kind of accelerationist theory of revolutionary conditions.

Sometimes I do really wonder how many Trotskyists people have actually met.

I’ve honestly watched The Patriot more times that I care to remember (there’s something hilarious about Smel Bigsom to me). Honestly ridiculous. Not only because it fits into the general theory (like Braveheart) that Gibson despises the English and likes to be in movies that portray them as unambiguously depraved (critical support) but also because how fucked up the depiction of slavery and race-relations is.

Honestly at the end of the day I just watched it for the vibes of war crimes against British colonial troops.

Yeah it’s also crazy when you realize how instinctual it is. Like I don’t think all the dolts at the Guardian pumping out ink for the ink god really reflectively think ‘we have to craft this Manichean narrative for the sake of liberalism’ given that’s not actually how ideology generally works. I have no doubt (actually, I know from personal experience) that it you push narrative which don’t conform you will sometimes get responses which straight-up make no reference to the truth of the matter but explicitly reject what you’re saying because it’s politically inconvenient. That being said, it is fascinating and disturbing how reflexive and instinctual these kinds of responses are in general liberal culture, and how little most people in liberal societies are either unwilling or incapable of critically analyzing and evaluating this kind of stuff. Like they could just read what Putin says to get a more accurate account of the Russian state’s motivations for their actions.

I don’t really think this is valid reasoning tbh. Governments can kill people at a whim, but frequently do not because they would rather they die over time through conditions such as prisons. There are other factors they consider apart from simply wanting him dead. They don’t need to have killed his directly. It could simply be the result of mental and physical health issues due to his imprisonment. Life expectancy in prisons is markedly lower for a reason.

I’ve seen takes that he was killed by the West to blame Putin, but I haven’t really seen any actual hard evidence for this

Western governments want Assange dead. So by that logic he’d be dead long before now. He’s not, but I’m not about to conclude that the US gov doesn’t want Assange in an anonymous ditch. There are plenty of revolutionaries being let to rot in US prisons from the previous decades. It’s just killing them in slow motion.

At the end of the day we don’t have objective info to allow us to conclude one way or another as to exactly why he’s dead, and both the West and Russia are obviously deeply biased sources.

Birth of a Nation.

The Patriot.

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No figure better encapsulates Western liberal propaganda against Russia.

Notice the complete absence of discussion of any other oppositions figures or forces (controlled or otherwise) within Russia, along with the attendant impression that he is supposed to be far more popular than he actually is.

Note the conspiracy of silence regarding his past and actual political ideology.

That being said, whatever the circumstances of his death, it’s a nationalist government killing a fascist. Oh well.

If you think this doesn’t exist then you haven’t spent enough time differentiating Marxism from liberal identity politics.

I’m not dropping any credentials. I’m making reference to evidence. You can believe it or not, that’s your prerogative and obviously it’s convenient for you to not believe it because you actually can’t talk about the relevant content, but just have to resort to ad-hominens, not justifying anything you are saying, not providing arguments or evidence, as if Marxism implied that these don’t matter, which again tells me you are posing ultra whose positions are vulgar materialism’s at best.

Never said I was any of those people. Why would I? You are claiming that a position I am expressing is reactionary, and then using that to disregard every other opinion expressed, which would make these other individuals I’d guess you would claim to agree with also reactionaries, and would Like Lenin and Marx would be Islamophobic ten-fold more than me, as would a huge number of communists in the Islamic world, if your conditions for it were correct. WTF does me not being them have to do with anything? What matters are the actual reasons you can give for the political position you are putting forward, and your’s amounts to betrayal of communists outside of the west and cowardice for the sake of virtue-signalling.

If I give reasons, and you can’t respond to them, except through the classic abusive partner tactic of pre-emptively accusing the other person in the discussion of what you have embarrassingly shown yourself to be guilty of at length (straw men) because you don’t actually know what you’re talking about, then again that says far more negative about your position than mine. If you are going to complain about a Marxist on a communist forum giving long-length explanations and arguments for views, then grow the fuck up you ultra. The idea that suddenly people can’t make reference to their own experience has never been the case here, so well done for just inventing that ad hoc to avoid the fact that you are happy to be silent about atrocities against comrades in other countries because you feel you lose virtue points. That’s called cowardice.

I live in the West now, but I am not from the West. I moved here. So watch your fucking mouth. If you think I am having these conversations only in English then you again don’t know what you’re talking about. And yeh I do write articles. In English and not in English. Since when what that exclusive with discussing with other comrades on a forum? Again you’re just inventing ad hoc shit but you have nothing to contribute.

I’m sick and tired of this take that all you crypto Christian, self-hating masochistic cracker yanks have, where you are so insecure about being American that you have to be as ultra as possible to virtue-signal as hard as possible about how opposed you are to yankie imperialism, where you claim that any negative comment about any group outside the West is therefore somehow metaphysically supporting western imperialism, which is such a bizarre argument it’s ridiculous that time even has to be spent dealing with it. I am muddying nothing. I’m being clear. You are muddying and not expressing what you think because of either cowardice, embarrassment or ignorance.

Like it’s embarrassing that either you can’t understand that the following two propositions can be believe at the same time, or that people are too stupid to be able to do so: namely (1) that Islamists are reactionary and are key obstacles to communist (left-wing more broadly) political organization in those countries, and (2) that Islamic countries are victims of Western Imperialism. Like if you really think all that, you are literally in the grip of infantile disorder. Both these things are true you dullard. What do you think it looks like when you write that? It looks either like you don’t think they are reactionary, in which case you’re reactionary, or like you are admitting implicitly that they are but that you think workers are too stupid to be able to understand that, and so you are expressing a classist position. Again reactionary. It’s precisely one of your tasks as a militant to bring people to that correct position. Again, if you don’t understand how necessary that is, then you are reminding me that you are not involved in any militant or party activity, but in those contexts you have to formulate serious responses to that, and you will look like a dolt to your working class if all you can say is 'we don’t want to make clear our opposition to all forms of far-right politics. Like you do understand that other people literally live in countries where the influence of Islamism is actually a thing? If you want to organize Muslims workers, you have to combat it, because otherwise you are at a disadvantage.

Also, you do understand that there are Islamists in power who are supported by the West? So what, in those cases you only recognize how reactionary they are to the extent they receive Western support? Again: stop projecting your infantile, ignorant yankie view on the rest of the world. You have literally achieved the least of any communist tradition, practically or theoretically. An AES can do real politik all they like. The idea every communist in the world is obliged to follow them to the letter is not only intellectually lazy but also incoherent, as they contradict one-another frequently. They can also be wrong. They can engage in revisionism. You just ad hoc assuming that they necessarily have a correct take has never been the correct ideological practice of any successful communist party. I’m guessing again you haven’t looked at the debates within communist parties over similar questions from the last hundred years if that is your view. China has had plenty of positive things to say about Israel. No-one here is about to repeat those, because the actual concrete content of the situation in Palestine obviously calls for unambiguous support for Palestinian liberation from Israeli fascism.

Yeah I find the image of North Korean diplomats smuggling heroin into Copenhagen honestly hilarious and the lumpen-reactionary in me kinda respects the hustle.

I didn’t say that the DPRK were not Communist, though I’d also argue that any serious analysis of the history of the place, to the extent we have access to it( though lack of evidence doesn’t imply any positive conclusions either, something many people here also seem not to understand), also leaves much to be desired, though that obviously is materially very much a result of the incredibly difficult position they have always found themselves in.

Again, you are not actually making an effort to respond to what I’m saying, and you’re responding moralistically. You’re embarrassing yourself. Take the L and move on. If you can’t actually argue these points in terms of there content, but have to always retreat to a meta-position over the argument call someone a bozo, then that says a lot more about the weakness of what you’re saying than what I am saying.

You really need to get over this infantile idea that the only people who can any have any possible legitimate opinion on the place Fuck off with that reactionary nationalism. Since when has ever been the case in the history of communism? I guess Marx, Engels, Lenin and Stalin’s opinions on places they had never been were always totally incorrect then? You seem to be implying that when convenient. The only criterion is the arguments and evidence you have, and you haven’t provided any real substantial ones, making a bunch of simplications, and invalidly reasoning to conclusions that what you are saying doesn’t imply.

You want to know what communists from these places think? Again: please tell my comrades who have had their families raped, murdered and tortured by Islamists that they are not in fact reactionary or their enemies. You’re rather conveniently ignoring this point.

Even if (which I agree is a fact) the US-hegemonic Imperialist system is the primary enemy of communism in an overall sense, or the most powerful enemy of communist movements, and so there has to be anti-imperialism as a central focus of any leftist movement, and this has to recognize that otherwise deeply reactionary groups are currently the only armed means for opposing Israeli fascism, settler-colonialism, apartheid and imperialism, and that that implies that communists there have to cooperate (all of which is obvious and not what is up for discussion), you making the inference that this implies that there cannot be opposition to anything else more broadly, or that Communists should not clearly express their opposition to, and criticisms of, far-right theocracy because they are opposed to US imperialism, is so infantile and detached from reality that it honestly beggars belief. This isnt fucking hearts of iron. Some people are actually communists in these societies. Doing apologism for reactionary groups simply because they oppose the West is opposed to them is itself doing the anti-communist propaganda of the West for them.