I’ll copy my comment from a different post about this article: I don’t see this ending well. ChatGPT is trained on western media, Facebook and it’s subsidiaries (not calling it by that other name Zuck, you can go fuck yourself) are FULL of American sinophobic and anticommunist propaganda, the list goes on. This seems to me like that particular party member or group of members assumes that the west will engage in good faith with them, and won’t completely ignore everything that the Chinese government requires, while America’s government is forcing the theft of IP from a Chinese company for “national security reasons” or some bullshit like that. I don’t see doing this going well for China and I hope Beijing pumps the brakes on the idea and continues to work with companies that will follow their data protection rules.
Well, it could be interesting as an experiment to strengthen their position. Mankind two experiments, the first XHS, with Chinese rules, and the second facebook and Co, with freedom rules.
And then the Chinese people can see for themselves which create a more human interaction environment, and how much propaganda they get back from it.
Also, by allowing a big centre like Shangai to interact, they’re going balls deep showing to the US public opinion the starking difference of life’s conditions.
Also, lemmygrad is that, in a way. We know how well this place works under its tight rules. Would we want it any other way? Thank you to the beautiful comrades of the admin team, btw.
But I agree, they need to keep a tight leash on the experiment.
Also, by allowing a big centre like Shangai to interact, they’re going balls deep showing to the US public opinion the starking difference of life’s conditions.
That’s not how anything works though. If you go to a Western platform and post content about the reality of China that runs against the propaganda agenda of the West, that content is simply going to be either removed outright on a platform like Reddit or soft censored and shadow banned on Facebook/Instagram/Twitter. The Twitter Files already went into this.
The “international” internet held captive by the Western media oligopoly isn’t some “level playing field” where the “marketplace of ideas” or “free speech” can take place. There’s a reason why everyone here is on lemmygrad rather than back on r/genzedong - because the latter was banned for challenging the Western narrative about Ukraine back in 2022. A billion Chinese coming onto the Western-owned internet isn’t going to be some “I am Spartacus” moment but will simply have them corralled and made to toe the line just like what the West has done in many respects to the Indian userbase. With modern algorithms and AI assistance, it would be easier than it has ever been to censor out the new Chinese voices, especially if (guaranteed given how they’re reacting about RedNote) the US state lends its resource.
Thank you for interjecting here. You articulated the thoughts that were running through my head when I read that reply better than I would have been able to. TBH, this is a lot of what I meant in my original comment. The person you were replying to is leaving out one key element, a element you account for, which is that there’s an assumption that American government, platforms, media, etc, is operating from a position of good faith, something that objective reality has shown to be absolutely false. The ruling American oligarchy does not operate in good faith, ever. They will lie, cheat, and manipulate anything and everything to suit their narrative and increase profits. The market reigns supreme, until it becomes more profitable to corral it. Protectionism is bad, except for our own protectionism. I could continue but I think this beats the dead horse enough.
My point is not that the Chinese would influence the western social medias, but that the contrast would stenghten the resolve of the netizens within China. And by having XHS as an established entry door, that could start slowly pulling users into moderated space.
Similarly to how we understand the value of lemmygrad by comparison. I first joined a bunch of instances but quickly realised that the free for all market of ideas where only upvote exist like .world and beehaw can easily turn into lib/fash-fest, and decided to have lemmygrad as my main, understanding that any instance banning us is not worth interacting with.
I really don’t think it would end up influencing the western userbase. I feel like having China open to western social media platforms without sticking to their guns regarding data collection, management, etc, as well as censorship rules in China, is going to have the opposite effect. Instead of showing the normal western crowd the facts, it’s going to expose the Chinese crowd to USA propaganda. Many will probably be smart enough to see right through it but considering the amount of disinformation I see even on a platform like Xiaohongshu already, I think it would get some penetration. I just don’t see it being in China’s interests to open their internet up for this outside of limited usage for international businesses and researchers. I feel like if they did open up, the CIA is immediately going to flood Chinese users with propaganda designed to try to initiate a color revolution, or maybe designed to get Chinese tech sector to leak their own advances.
Chinese people aren’t as dumb as you’d think; if they wanted to they could easily access the western web already, as many do. Even if they could, would some rando in China really suddenly become anti-government because of some racist guy ranting about the inhumanity of dog-eating asiatics? If anything opening up the internet will strengthen popular support for the government. The west in the eyes of many Chinese internet users is… laughably positive (one expressed surprise that the US could have more income inequality than China), so anything they’d be exposed to, even the most blatant propaganda, would still come as quite a shock to their expectations,
Yeah, I didn’t mean to imply that the Chinese people were unintelligent. I strictly meant to say that the USA has gone out of their way to try to influence and fund anti communist and anti socialist groups wherever they go and this feels like something that, if opened, will immediately be flooded with sinophobic propaganda (at levels even worse than is already prevalent on those platforms). Though, who knows, I’m just your average American, it’s entirely possible I end up being entirely wrong and the Chinese people joining those sites end up radicalising a fuck ton of white people into actually building something new from within. I would love nothing more than to eat my words from my previous comments.
Ah, I see. Sorry if I came off as a bit aggressive. I’m confident that for the reasons I outlined anything the US could do wouldn’t have an effect, and even if it did the CPC would quickly take action. IMO the firewall is already sort of outliving its usefulness, since I can’t stress enough how many people in China truly have little idea what’s going on in the west, at least in my experience.
I’ll copy my comment from a different post about this article: I don’t see this ending well. ChatGPT is trained on western media, Facebook and it’s subsidiaries (not calling it by that other name Zuck, you can go fuck yourself) are FULL of American sinophobic and anticommunist propaganda, the list goes on. This seems to me like that particular party member or group of members assumes that the west will engage in good faith with them, and won’t completely ignore everything that the Chinese government requires, while America’s government is forcing the theft of IP from a Chinese company for “national security reasons” or some bullshit like that. I don’t see doing this going well for China and I hope Beijing pumps the brakes on the idea and continues to work with companies that will follow their data protection rules.
Well, it could be interesting as an experiment to strengthen their position. Mankind two experiments, the first XHS, with Chinese rules, and the second facebook and Co, with freedom rules.
And then the Chinese people can see for themselves which create a more human interaction environment, and how much propaganda they get back from it.
Also, by allowing a big centre like Shangai to interact, they’re going balls deep showing to the US public opinion the starking difference of life’s conditions.
Also, lemmygrad is that, in a way. We know how well this place works under its tight rules. Would we want it any other way? Thank you to the beautiful comrades of the admin team, btw.
But I agree, they need to keep a tight leash on the experiment.
That’s not how anything works though. If you go to a Western platform and post content about the reality of China that runs against the propaganda agenda of the West, that content is simply going to be either removed outright on a platform like Reddit or soft censored and shadow banned on Facebook/Instagram/Twitter. The Twitter Files already went into this.
The “international” internet held captive by the Western media oligopoly isn’t some “level playing field” where the “marketplace of ideas” or “free speech” can take place. There’s a reason why everyone here is on lemmygrad rather than back on r/genzedong - because the latter was banned for challenging the Western narrative about Ukraine back in 2022. A billion Chinese coming onto the Western-owned internet isn’t going to be some “I am Spartacus” moment but will simply have them corralled and made to toe the line just like what the West has done in many respects to the Indian userbase. With modern algorithms and AI assistance, it would be easier than it has ever been to censor out the new Chinese voices, especially if (guaranteed given how they’re reacting about RedNote) the US state lends its resource.
Thank you for interjecting here. You articulated the thoughts that were running through my head when I read that reply better than I would have been able to. TBH, this is a lot of what I meant in my original comment. The person you were replying to is leaving out one key element, a element you account for, which is that there’s an assumption that American government, platforms, media, etc, is operating from a position of good faith, something that objective reality has shown to be absolutely false. The ruling American oligarchy does not operate in good faith, ever. They will lie, cheat, and manipulate anything and everything to suit their narrative and increase profits. The market reigns supreme, until it becomes more profitable to corral it. Protectionism is bad, except for our own protectionism. I could continue but I think this beats the dead horse enough.
I agree with both of you in that regard.
My point is not that the Chinese would influence the western social medias, but that the contrast would stenghten the resolve of the netizens within China. And by having XHS as an established entry door, that could start slowly pulling users into moderated space.
Similarly to how we understand the value of lemmygrad by comparison. I first joined a bunch of instances but quickly realised that the free for all market of ideas where only upvote exist like .world and beehaw can easily turn into lib/fash-fest, and decided to have lemmygrad as my main, understanding that any instance banning us is not worth interacting with.
I really don’t think it would end up influencing the western userbase. I feel like having China open to western social media platforms without sticking to their guns regarding data collection, management, etc, as well as censorship rules in China, is going to have the opposite effect. Instead of showing the normal western crowd the facts, it’s going to expose the Chinese crowd to USA propaganda. Many will probably be smart enough to see right through it but considering the amount of disinformation I see even on a platform like Xiaohongshu already, I think it would get some penetration. I just don’t see it being in China’s interests to open their internet up for this outside of limited usage for international businesses and researchers. I feel like if they did open up, the CIA is immediately going to flood Chinese users with propaganda designed to try to initiate a color revolution, or maybe designed to get Chinese tech sector to leak their own advances.
Chinese people aren’t as dumb as you’d think; if they wanted to they could easily access the western web already, as many do. Even if they could, would some rando in China really suddenly become anti-government because of some racist guy ranting about the inhumanity of dog-eating asiatics? If anything opening up the internet will strengthen popular support for the government. The west in the eyes of many Chinese internet users is… laughably positive (one expressed surprise that the US could have more income inequality than China), so anything they’d be exposed to, even the most blatant propaganda, would still come as quite a shock to their expectations,
Yeah, I didn’t mean to imply that the Chinese people were unintelligent. I strictly meant to say that the USA has gone out of their way to try to influence and fund anti communist and anti socialist groups wherever they go and this feels like something that, if opened, will immediately be flooded with sinophobic propaganda (at levels even worse than is already prevalent on those platforms). Though, who knows, I’m just your average American, it’s entirely possible I end up being entirely wrong and the Chinese people joining those sites end up radicalising a fuck ton of white people into actually building something new from within. I would love nothing more than to eat my words from my previous comments.
Ah, I see. Sorry if I came off as a bit aggressive. I’m confident that for the reasons I outlined anything the US could do wouldn’t have an effect, and even if it did the CPC would quickly take action. IMO the firewall is already sort of outliving its usefulness, since I can’t stress enough how many people in China truly have little idea what’s going on in the west, at least in my experience.