I have had more than one. I am autistic with an anxiety disorder and ptsd and I had guys who aren’t those things always talk to me about girls like I am super pick up master just because inam decently looking and in shape. They way they talked about their experiences made me kinda not want any, too…
And no matter how much I tried to explain my situation when asking for advice they just gave sabotaging and extremely vague advice that doesn’t mean anything. I wasted away my 20s and a large part of my 30s because of shit like that.
The best advice is “women are people too, not some mystical being from outer space”. They feel the same emotions, they get hungry, they get horny, they get anxious or shy too."
Look for people who think similarly to you. I found it that I mesh well with other people who are on the spectrum, have adhd, etc. Ultimately nothing matters when you can’t approach someone, or go out of your way to find hobbies where you can find people with the same interests as you. So if you can’t get over that (or accept a rejection), it won’t work.
Also, don’t focus on a single person, especially someone who doesn’t return feelings / attention, or doesn’t have time for you at all. Even the busiest person will find a tiny bit of time to meet with you if they really like you. Obsessing over a single person for years isn’t the way to find love. Quoting a song by Tim Minchin, “your love is one in a million, but it doesn’t mean that the other 999 999 loves wouldn’t be equally nice”. If you find someone who returns your feelings, you mesh with well, hold on for dear life.
The best advice is “women are people too, not some mystical being from outer space”. They feel the same emotions, they get hungry, they get horny, they get anxious or shy too."
Honestly, this is terrible advice for guys who are having trouble with women.
I only have real experience being me, and interacting with other people, for knowledge of what “people” are.
Let’s say I’m in the park shooting hoops alone. I see someone else walking around in the park, not looking busy or in a hurry. I could wave at them and say “hey, wanna shoot some hoops?”
When I see a woman I’m attracted to, I want to fuck her. Personality, interests, etc - those are all nice and all. Those are things that make me want to hang out with a girl, spend time with her, talk to her. But if she has big tits and a thin waist, my penis says “hey, we should fuck her”, and say “what a great idea, Penis!”
So based on my own personal internal experience of being human, my experience interacting with other humans in other contexts, and your advice that “women are just people” - what I should do is see a woman in the park, wave at her, and say “hey, wanna fuck?”
However, based on every other piece of information I have about how to interact with women, I am led to believe that I should not do this. So if women are just people, but I shouldn’t interact with them in a way which is very understandable to me, then that must mean that I am not a normal person. That there is something wrong with me.
Now, based on the fact that I’ve already written this much, and the sheer fact that I’m here on Lemmy, this is probably a valid assumption. But sexually, it is not. Sexually, I’m a pretty normal guy. Guys are mostly aroused by people’s physical forms and want sex immediately, with emotional connection being lower on the list of immediate priorities. This is very obvious if you simply look at a gay man’s Grindr, where many men set a picture of their asshole as their leading profile pic and allow other users to see their location down to the meter so they can fuck Right. Now.
The reality is, men and women are different. At this point the gender studies crowd usually jumps in and says something about “gender essentialism”, or about how “everyone is different.” Great, everyone is different. But there are some broad trends we can observe, and for the purposes of heteronormative dating, we can fairly easily divide the world into men, women, and other, where “other” are largely irrelevant to the discussion since - if we are giving advice to heterosexual men - either you don’t want to fuck them, or they don’t want to fuck you. So we talk about men and women, and how you as a man should interact with women so that they will want to fuck you.
In order for a guy to improve at being fuckable, he needs to understand that women are different than him. That they want and expect different things. And this is fine. Yeah, women are people. But they are also women, and if you want to date women, you need to treat women like women like to be treated when they date someone.
Read it again, women are people too. What your approach is, is to think of them as objects to fuck, a different category to “people”. You have your own issues to work through. Don’t use people as means to an end.
No, you aren’t pretty normal to think of everyone as “someone to fuck” and instead of saying “hey want to throw hoops together” to a woman too, you would say “want to fuck”. That’s asocial behavior.
And no, it doesn’t matter that women and men have differences.
I don’t think of women as objects to fuck, because the feeling of horniness is an emotion which emerges before rational thought. Rational thought is plastered over our emotions post-hoc. That’s how the brain works.
And what I described is how my sexuality works. If that offends you, well… That’s your problem. I’m not going to apologize for something I didn’t choose and can’t change. And if we’re going to have a discussion about how dating works, then I’m not going to lie.
No, you aren’t pretty normal to think of everyone as “someone to fuck”
Then why do all dating sites put pictures front and center?
and instead of saying “hey want to throw hoops together” to a woman too, you would say “want to fuck”. That’s asocial behavior.
Asocial is when you don’t socialize. Asocial behavior would be not talking to anyone. What you are thinking of is antisocial behavior - behavior which violates social norms. And that’s my point. There are social norms around asking women to have sex which don’t exist around basketball or asking men to have sex, because men and women are different.
And no, it doesn’t matter that women and men have differences.
So you would tell a man to make a dick pic his lead photo on Tinder? Because that’s what they do on Grindr.
So yeah, drop this toxic line of thinking first.
Toxic thinking is denying reality and trying to invalidate someone else’s sexuality because it contradicts your political views.
“I am not going to stop thinking of women as fuck objects and treat them as people, and if that offends you that’s your problem”
I’m not “offended” by you, I’m telling you to change your thought patterns and stop being an incel in every sense of the word. No wall of text will excuse this line of thinking, or make it okay. I’m done talking with you - it’s obvious you suffer from being chronically online and not understanding how to interact with people.
I’m ethically non-monogamous and am currently sleeping with multiple different women with their very enthusiastic consent. The fact that I understand and can speak frankly and honestly about my sexuality - as well as anything else on my mind - is a turn on for them because it means that they can understand how I’m feeling and appreciate that I am relating to them authentically.
They don’t feel dehumanized by the fact that I think they are hot. They feel sexy and appreciated. And they understand that having sexual urges towards someone doesn’t mean they can’t also be human. Really, being sexually attracted to others and wanting others to be sexually attracted to you is one of the fundamental experiences of being human.
There is a stereotypical male sexuality which is based primarily around physical appearance. And there is a stereotypical female sexuality based around personality. These are not strictly limited to one gender or another, but the stereotypes exist for a reason - because the correspond with broad demographic trends. I have a stereotypically male sexuality. I understand and accept that the women I sleep with have a different sexuality in some ways. So I try to understand what they want, and give it to them, because I like seeing them happy. And they try to understand what I want and give it to me, because they like seeing me happy. We are different in some ways and similar in others, and that’s part of what makes spending time with each other fun. So no, I’m not going to apologize or feel bad about my sexuality.
I said it in the comment above, if you are unable to go out / ask someone out / spend time with them, it is most likely not going to work out. I like spending my time with my cat too - but I am able of going out to meet someone in a park for instance. Maybe an online relationship with someone has a place, but at the end of the day - nothing can substitute being in the same place together.
You seem to have more pressing matters than a relationship to take care of. Finding a partner is secondary to taking care of yourself. A relationship won’t magically fix anything, worse yet, it can be detrimental to your health. A partner also isn’t there to baby you, or be your therapist. Can’t really give you mental health advice more than that, I am not a psychiatrist or a therapist. And even if I was, giving medical advice on the internet isn’t something people should be doing.
You probably need to rely on your support network, ask someone for help if possible, or call a doctor. It won’t be easy to overcome though.
Agoraphobia is fear of open spaces, enochlophobia is fear of crowds. You assume I want someone to baby me, I don’t. I just don’t know where to go to meet people like me, and make friends.
Sooo are you able to go out, meet people in the park? No? Then it most likely isn’t going to work, as I said in my post before. Take care of your mental health first.
Here is the hard truth to understand. You have phobias. Phobias are, by definition, debilitating - they are a maladaptive mental response which makes it difficult or impossible for you to live a normal life and function as normal people function.
Let’s say a woman goes on a dating app made by a wizard. On this dating app, she can choose to match with one of two identical guys - they are equally handsome, charming, and intelligent, and she knows this with complete certainty. Because wizard. The only difference is that one guy is missing all his arms and legs, and the other has fully functioning arms and legs. Who do you think she is going to pick? What if one guy has a crippling gambling addiction and the other doesn’t? What if one has intermittent bouts of schizophrenia and the other doesn’t? And what if one has agoraphobia and enochlophobia and the other doesn’t? Because this is essentially the choice women are faced with every day - they can open a dating app and swipe through guys, swiping left on guys with any obvious shortcomings while being quite certain that they will not run out of options for guys without these obvious issues who will match with them. Their problem is sorting through average guys to find an awesome guy while also not getting kidnapped and sold into the sex trade. Your problem is that your phobias make you a below average guy who is not even on the table for consideration.
Even women who are agoraphobic or enochlophobic will be largely uninterested in you, because there are plenty of guys who do not have those problems who are willing to say “don’t worry babe, I’ll go get the groceries if the store is too crowded right now.” Women like tall men with strong jawlines, but more than that they care about personality. Confidence. Social acuity. Leadership ability. You know what’s really fucking hot? The guy who organizes pickup frisbee in the park. The guy who starts dancing at the concert before everyone else, and gets everyone else dancing, too. The guy who comes up and introduces himself at a party like he’s someone worth knowing. Your problem isn’t that you can’t introduce yourself confidently yet - your problem is that you aren’t even at the party!
Dating is a numbers game. And you might, by sheer chance, find someone who is interested in you. But it’s a slim chance - made slimmer by the fact that you actively avoid the best opportunities to meet a lot of people, ie, out in public where there are… a lot of people. There is no place you can go with a high concentration of women who are interested in people with your specific mental disabilities. The only good advice for you is to become a more appealing man. The only way to get better at the numbers game is to play more times or improve your odds. Self improvement improves your odds. Meeting more women means more chances to play.
So. Unequivocally. Your top, most important, number one priority for your dating life should be overcoming your phobias. Period. I am being blunt with you because you seem to have missed the point the other comments made. Phobias respond well to therapeutic treatments that we have. Go to therapy. Put the work in. If you run into other problems along the way, figure them out. Get to the point where you can live a normal life, have a few hobbies that you regularly participate in outside the house, and have a solid group of friends who you hang out with in real life. Then you are at the starting line for finding someone to date.
Just saying ‘go online’ and nothing else for starters. I ‘went online’ in the mid-2000s and found nothing but PUA and early manosphere crap that was utterly stupid and did far more damage to me socially in the long term that I didn’t even begin to fix until more than 13 years after the fact. It didn’t bring any positive results either. But due to my circumstances I just really didn’t know any better.
Also when I did ‘go online’ or ‘to bars’ and I described some highly weird experiences that I knew weren’t normal they would twist the events so badly that it makes me wonder if they were the autistic ones and not me.
For example when I was 22 years old, I went to a bar and started talking to this woman. She was older than me and kinda vague, lied to me about her name, lied about her martial status (before taking everything back, but never telling me her real name). This was in Dubai I might add, so the social dynamic is a very different place than it would be in north america… and would also really come back to bite me later. The only shit I had to go by was offering her a drink at the start…
But here is a kicker… no one ever bought her a drink before. Apparently she literally did not watch any western media or ignored whatever was on screen. Because the whole concept of anyone walking up to anyone in a bar and buying them a drink was a legit alien experience to her.
Long story short… I saw her a second time a few weeks later at the same bar and she had some friends with her. She treated me like I was an ATM and basically thought that as long as she groped at me inappropriately (she even grabbed my head and shoved it against her breasts, forcibly I might add since I tried to resist) she could ask for meals and drinks and spending money for her and her friends (without the slightest hint of reciprocal sex). However she and friends were giddy and laughing while doing it.
I described the situation to them as I am here without mentioning the whole ‘this person never had a person buy her a drink’ but I DID add it later.
However this did nothing to convince them that they were trying to manipulate them, and they insisted that actually I should have gone for it and lost my virginity in a threesome with some MILFs that day. I am mildly exaggerating, but that was the gist of it.
BTW, just as an FYI, in many bars I went to in Dubai, they were lousy with sex workers. I did have plenty of girls touch me and act all giddy (but not ask for anything) and offer me ‘massages’ (which is a thinly veiled euphemism for sex in case it wasn’t obvious) for reasonable prices. The guys I was talking to weren’t in the middle east and just could not wrap their heads around my experiences being different from theirs.
Even with going online, they said nothing about where to go, how to make a good profile, what pictures to use or anything. Even trying to message people they insisted that you must never say anything other than ‘hi’ at first. This is even when they actually showed me what they did and had giant text walls that they sent detailing whatever was on her profile. I wasn’t able to replicate those, but their advice was just designed to make me waste my time.
Long story short. I am 41 now. Not a virgin, but dealing with a lot of bullshit. I dont care who I tell this to, but I am prepping to see a sexual therapist. I am practically writing my autobiography so I can just give it to them and bring them up to speed so I don’t waste tons of time and money just going on and on with the sessions. I need actual help and not just someone to talk to.
I’m sorry you had that experience. I had a similar, but different, experience. You keep referring to “they” who were giving you advice - who were these people and where did you meet them? It seems like this was a consistent group?
I eventually found some good advice, which boils down to:
Be honest. Be honest with people about who you are and what you are interested in. Some people might not like what you are offering. Some might even be offended. But this is all fine, as long as you are honest and respectful and talk to each woman with the assumption that the two of you are on the same team of figuring out if you are interested in each other.
Improve yourself. For most guys with dating issues, this includes things like going to therapy, building a healthy social life, being physically healthy, and generally being a happy person.
Talk to lots of women. People are different and want different things. In order to find the women who want what you have to offer, who are themselves offering what you want yourself, you need to talk to a lot of women.
Improving at these things is best accomplished from a place of a positive mindset, good mental health, and with a strong support system.
but holy SHIT did he make me look bad. I need to mention that everything he said was a lie. and I even pointed out to him then and there that going to that group was his idea, not mine, and I pointed out to him that everyone around him who was in a relationship did not do anything remotely close to what he was saying.
Then he admitted to me that A: He never had a girlfriend, B: Never dated, C: had no idea how people actually met, and D: Was possibly a virgin. In short, I was extensively more experienced than he was, despite being from overseas.
I could go on forever, but I will stop here (gotta save it for my therapist). You actually did offer some real advice, and I did go out on some brunches on meetup.com and I am much calmer than I was before, and the girls there did talk to me far more than they did previously. Doesn’t mean I am going to getting laid left and right, but it is a much better start, and I actually have far more support from my job and the few family and friends that I have contact with, I had to cut out so many people from my life it isn’t funny.
(part 1 of 2)
I need to save what I am writing here (since Lemmy is going to go down soon, sadly) and I need to save this for my autobiography for my therapist.
I am going to just write it right now. The person I was referring to was my brother. I recently 100% cut off my brother from my life and I will no longer speak to him. This isn’t something I have done on impulse, but it was more than 20 years coming. I simply had enough of his bullying, his twisting of everything I say, his accusations about me to my face, and countless other crap that I really, REALLY don’t want to get into. I even went so far as to tell both my parents that ‘This man is your son, but he is not my brother.’ He has always given me sabotaging advice and just stressed me out every single time we spoke, to the point where I would just lose it (again, almost every time) when talking to him and he is wholly and completely unaware and simultaneously does not care what an effect his words have on my emotional and mental state. I’ve been bled my heart out for over 15 years trying to show him how to communicate with me and how he is making me feel, but it is always ‘ummm, OK?’ and then he immediately returns to his old ways.
Like when I was trying to go out and meet people close to ten years ago, every single call from his was such a massive emotional drain that I could not longer socialize with people without getting them to be weirded out and straight up clam up when talking to me. One issue I had is simply getting girls (and I am referring to everyone, from 18 to 60) to just talk to me. The advise that he and others gave (and there are others) was ‘you have two ears and one mouth, listen twice as much as you speak’. This is all well and good… but if the girls are consistently clamming up and outright refusing to speak, it is kinda difficult to listen to pure silence. There are a lot of nasty people out there and constantly being rendered in a poor emotional state does not make it easier.
One other thing about him (and others, including relatives that I also had to cut out of my life) is the sheer contrarian nature of every discussion we have. I want girls, but they said ‘you gotta fix yourself up 100% first before going out’ or ‘you should ignore them and focus on (insert thing here) the girls will come by themselves and/or a waste of time’. None of this addresses that every single person saying it to me has NEVER practiced what they preached. They are always doing multiple things at the same time and going out and meeting people while doing this or that. The only take away is ‘fuck you, buddy, you don’t deserve anything. Just work for table scraps and maybe if you’re lucky a prostitute will fuck you for double price’.
I mean I mentioned my life in Dubai in brief. I need to also mention just how incredibly bizarre my life was there. I wrote over 12,000 words just detailing my first job in Dubai when I was growing up. If I had to describe all I remember we’d be going into novel length territory. On top of that, my brother (and other siblings) all went to college as young as 16 and did so overseas, away from home and my parents, meaning they got a taste of independence and the ability to explore and formulate their own independent lives very young. For me? My brother hinted that he had had fairly extensive sexual experiences well before the age of 20, and he had effectively done it all way before he was 23. But for me? I didn’t even leave home until I was 23, and I didn’t get my own place to finally stay in until I was 26 (going on 27). On top of that living with my parents was a choking experience. I can’t describe just how controlling they were on every single aspect of my life they had. They also simply did not understand even why I wanted to do things on my own, and I am not referring to major events, I am referring to really minor stuff like buying my own clothes without my mom effectively being the one to control what I wear and what I try on.
You might say ‘but dude! You’re a grown ass man! How the fuck did your mother just utterly ignore your expressions that you just want to buy your own shoes?’ Simply, they A: Straight up ignored it, saying ‘yes of course you can’ and then not, or saying ‘yes, of course you can, you are in charge, I am just there to offer you feedback’ when it is patently not true. Also she did not understand that her simple presence in following me around was highly distracting and disconcerting when I was trying to do basic things.
Even more on basic stuff. When I started working in Dubai, there were dress codes at the job that I had to adhere to. Now I am an autistic person and I grew up with schools that all demanded uniforms, so this was not a difficult thing for me to do… but for her? Every time I had to dress up it was a fight. The rules could not be more clear: You wear a shirt AND a tie to work. But she insisted that ‘your brother in Texas, they don’t wear ties there. in fact, they wear T-shirts and jeans. That looks better on you, and you are a young man, so dress like a young man!’ and she would actively fight every single step of the way until I just gave up and wore something entirely contrary to what the rules demanded. It was only when I was threatened to be fired by the manager who sent me back home that she finally let go of that… but only that one time. Every single interview it was the same fucking thing. She would insist on dressing me up like I was a toddler, and always with the same ‘In America they don’t…’ and no amount of calm and rational ‘but we are in Dubai, it isn’t the same here!’ ever got to her.
Can you imagine being someone in your early 20s and literally having to throw temper tantrums in order to just wear work-appropriate clothes every single time? With nothing carrying over to the next incident? Meaning you have to repeat the whole thing like a tired rerun every time. I have an anxiety disorder and this means when I get anxious or worked up, I REALLY get worked up, and it can hours or even a whole day for my adrenaline levels to come back down. This means that I can longer maintain a calm demeanour when going to a job interview or to work, and this is absolutely noticeable. And as you can tell, the employer doesn’t give a fuck, no one is going to respect someone whose mother has THAT much control over them when they are at that age.
You mentioned having a positive mindset, good mental health, and a strong support system. I had none at the time. Getting a positive mindset is very difficult when everyone around is always against you and on the side everyone telling you off, and it does nothing for your mental health, and I had an oppositional system. It was actually a miracle how I managed to do what I have done in my life with all that bullshit going around me. Again, I am not expecting girls to say ‘hmm, let me cut this guy some slack and fuck him’ that’s not how it works, nor would I want girls to give me pity lays or other such stuff.
And being honest about intentions is good… but you need to know how to properly be honest about your intentions in order for them to come off properly. Like when I came to Canada, I wanted to date girls a little younger than me (I was 24, so around 19-21), but even at my tender young age people saw that as extensively creepy, almost in the exact same that someone in their 50s targeting girls that young is seen as creepy. The thing is those very same people, and I have seen them, think nothing of the numerous people they know that DO have large age gaps in relationships with 10, 15, or even 20 year differences, but they did have an issue with me saying I wanted a younger girlfriend.
So you might think ‘maybe it is because you want to make that specific thing happen while for the others it just fell into place?’ I need to say something: I’ve seen how many of those others guys work. It rarely ‘just falls into place’, there is some effort that goes into it even if they aren’t conscious of it. Secondly, the reason why I wanted a younger girlfriend is not just because I wanted a younger girlfriend, I wanted a younger social circle. Period. The reason for this is due to the isolation I had and extensive controls, I wanted to have the experiences that I wanted to have at a much younger age with people of that age. I’ve also been accused of having a mid-life crisis. This isn’t the case. If that was the case it would be my 5th mid-life crisis so far, that’s not how they work.
Of course a lot of the stuff I did backfired badly. The younger crowd I did hang out with when I was in my early 30s (and I quickly moved away from) were principally a bunch of stoners, idiots, pathological liars, and directionless drifters. There was one stoner guy (who is one of the ‘them’ who gave me terrible advice) who said he would help me get laid and find a girlfriend and said he would be my wingman… only for him to do a 180 in the three outings we did together, make a completely fool out of me (not intentionally, he was just that inept and stupid) and even paint all my good characteristics as being douchey.
Like those people had gaming nights on weekends… and I made them some really, really fancy pizza. I pride myself on being a very accomplished cook. The pizza I made used a slow-rise New York style pizza dough that needs 3 day cold-rise and I made some sauce that has to be tasted to be believed. Despite this, when he belatedly ‘introduced’ to me a group organizer of a BDSM group (yes, it was his idea) he just spoke ‘this guy is freaking out all the time and thinks he can just walk up to a girl and get a date. I tried telling him, you need to spend a few months at least in a group and make friends with all her friends before you even talk to her, but he keeps talking about PUA and stuff… but he made a nice pizza it was OK I guess’ I am paraphrasing…
Frankly you sound like you have a great chance of moving past this, and it’s not weird to need some help or feedback from others, most of us do. It’s a shame the folks you found previously were such idiots, lots of people are really unqualified to give advice there. Keep pushing!
I have had more than one. I am autistic with an anxiety disorder and ptsd and I had guys who aren’t those things always talk to me about girls like I am super pick up master just because inam decently looking and in shape. They way they talked about their experiences made me kinda not want any, too…
And no matter how much I tried to explain my situation when asking for advice they just gave sabotaging and extremely vague advice that doesn’t mean anything. I wasted away my 20s and a large part of my 30s because of shit like that.
The best advice is “women are people too, not some mystical being from outer space”. They feel the same emotions, they get hungry, they get horny, they get anxious or shy too."
Look for people who think similarly to you. I found it that I mesh well with other people who are on the spectrum, have adhd, etc. Ultimately nothing matters when you can’t approach someone, or go out of your way to find hobbies where you can find people with the same interests as you. So if you can’t get over that (or accept a rejection), it won’t work.
Also, don’t focus on a single person, especially someone who doesn’t return feelings / attention, or doesn’t have time for you at all. Even the busiest person will find a tiny bit of time to meet with you if they really like you. Obsessing over a single person for years isn’t the way to find love. Quoting a song by Tim Minchin, “your love is one in a million, but it doesn’t mean that the other 999 999 loves wouldn’t be equally nice”. If you find someone who returns your feelings, you mesh with well, hold on for dear life.
Honestly, this is terrible advice for guys who are having trouble with women.
I only have real experience being me, and interacting with other people, for knowledge of what “people” are.
Let’s say I’m in the park shooting hoops alone. I see someone else walking around in the park, not looking busy or in a hurry. I could wave at them and say “hey, wanna shoot some hoops?”
When I see a woman I’m attracted to, I want to fuck her. Personality, interests, etc - those are all nice and all. Those are things that make me want to hang out with a girl, spend time with her, talk to her. But if she has big tits and a thin waist, my penis says “hey, we should fuck her”, and say “what a great idea, Penis!”
So based on my own personal internal experience of being human, my experience interacting with other humans in other contexts, and your advice that “women are just people” - what I should do is see a woman in the park, wave at her, and say “hey, wanna fuck?”
However, based on every other piece of information I have about how to interact with women, I am led to believe that I should not do this. So if women are just people, but I shouldn’t interact with them in a way which is very understandable to me, then that must mean that I am not a normal person. That there is something wrong with me.
Now, based on the fact that I’ve already written this much, and the sheer fact that I’m here on Lemmy, this is probably a valid assumption. But sexually, it is not. Sexually, I’m a pretty normal guy. Guys are mostly aroused by people’s physical forms and want sex immediately, with emotional connection being lower on the list of immediate priorities. This is very obvious if you simply look at a gay man’s Grindr, where many men set a picture of their asshole as their leading profile pic and allow other users to see their location down to the meter so they can fuck Right. Now.
The reality is, men and women are different. At this point the gender studies crowd usually jumps in and says something about “gender essentialism”, or about how “everyone is different.” Great, everyone is different. But there are some broad trends we can observe, and for the purposes of heteronormative dating, we can fairly easily divide the world into men, women, and other, where “other” are largely irrelevant to the discussion since - if we are giving advice to heterosexual men - either you don’t want to fuck them, or they don’t want to fuck you. So we talk about men and women, and how you as a man should interact with women so that they will want to fuck you.
In order for a guy to improve at being fuckable, he needs to understand that women are different than him. That they want and expect different things. And this is fine. Yeah, women are people. But they are also women, and if you want to date women, you need to treat women like women like to be treated when they date someone.
Read it again, women are people too. What your approach is, is to think of them as objects to fuck, a different category to “people”. You have your own issues to work through. Don’t use people as means to an end.
No, you aren’t pretty normal to think of everyone as “someone to fuck” and instead of saying “hey want to throw hoops together” to a woman too, you would say “want to fuck”. That’s asocial behavior.
And no, it doesn’t matter that women and men have differences.
So yeah, drop this toxic line of thinking first.
So now you are treating this person as not a person… Good talk.
I don’t know where you got that from, but you do you
I don’t think of women as objects to fuck, because the feeling of horniness is an emotion which emerges before rational thought. Rational thought is plastered over our emotions post-hoc. That’s how the brain works.
And what I described is how my sexuality works. If that offends you, well… That’s your problem. I’m not going to apologize for something I didn’t choose and can’t change. And if we’re going to have a discussion about how dating works, then I’m not going to lie.
Then why do all dating sites put pictures front and center?
Asocial is when you don’t socialize. Asocial behavior would be not talking to anyone. What you are thinking of is antisocial behavior - behavior which violates social norms. And that’s my point. There are social norms around asking women to have sex which don’t exist around basketball or asking men to have sex, because men and women are different.
So you would tell a man to make a dick pic his lead photo on Tinder? Because that’s what they do on Grindr.
Toxic thinking is denying reality and trying to invalidate someone else’s sexuality because it contradicts your political views.
“I am not going to stop thinking of women as fuck objects and treat them as people, and if that offends you that’s your problem”
I’m not “offended” by you, I’m telling you to change your thought patterns and stop being an incel in every sense of the word. No wall of text will excuse this line of thinking, or make it okay. I’m done talking with you - it’s obvious you suffer from being chronically online and not understanding how to interact with people.
So when my wife wants to fuck me she sees me as an object ? But she never wants to fuck object though ?
I’m ethically non-monogamous and am currently sleeping with multiple different women with their very enthusiastic consent. The fact that I understand and can speak frankly and honestly about my sexuality - as well as anything else on my mind - is a turn on for them because it means that they can understand how I’m feeling and appreciate that I am relating to them authentically.
They don’t feel dehumanized by the fact that I think they are hot. They feel sexy and appreciated. And they understand that having sexual urges towards someone doesn’t mean they can’t also be human. Really, being sexually attracted to others and wanting others to be sexually attracted to you is one of the fundamental experiences of being human.
There is a stereotypical male sexuality which is based primarily around physical appearance. And there is a stereotypical female sexuality based around personality. These are not strictly limited to one gender or another, but the stereotypes exist for a reason - because the correspond with broad demographic trends. I have a stereotypically male sexuality. I understand and accept that the women I sleep with have a different sexuality in some ways. So I try to understand what they want, and give it to them, because I like seeing them happy. And they try to understand what I want and give it to me, because they like seeing me happy. We are different in some ways and similar in others, and that’s part of what makes spending time with each other fun. So no, I’m not going to apologize or feel bad about my sexuality.
I have agoraphobia, enochlophobia, and like to stay home with my cat. Any suggestions?
I honestly think there are a lot more people similar to you than you may suspect
Look for someone who also wants to Netflix and Chill. No shortage of other people who feel the same way.
I said it in the comment above, if you are unable to go out / ask someone out / spend time with them, it is most likely not going to work out. I like spending my time with my cat too - but I am able of going out to meet someone in a park for instance. Maybe an online relationship with someone has a place, but at the end of the day - nothing can substitute being in the same place together.
You seem to have more pressing matters than a relationship to take care of. Finding a partner is secondary to taking care of yourself. A relationship won’t magically fix anything, worse yet, it can be detrimental to your health. A partner also isn’t there to baby you, or be your therapist. Can’t really give you mental health advice more than that, I am not a psychiatrist or a therapist. And even if I was, giving medical advice on the internet isn’t something people should be doing.
You probably need to rely on your support network, ask someone for help if possible, or call a doctor. It won’t be easy to overcome though.
Agoraphobia is fear of open spaces, enochlophobia is fear of crowds. You assume I want someone to baby me, I don’t. I just don’t know where to go to meet people like me, and make friends.
Sooo are you able to go out, meet people in the park? No? Then it most likely isn’t going to work, as I said in my post before. Take care of your mental health first.
Here is the hard truth to understand. You have phobias. Phobias are, by definition, debilitating - they are a maladaptive mental response which makes it difficult or impossible for you to live a normal life and function as normal people function.
Let’s say a woman goes on a dating app made by a wizard. On this dating app, she can choose to match with one of two identical guys - they are equally handsome, charming, and intelligent, and she knows this with complete certainty. Because wizard. The only difference is that one guy is missing all his arms and legs, and the other has fully functioning arms and legs. Who do you think she is going to pick? What if one guy has a crippling gambling addiction and the other doesn’t? What if one has intermittent bouts of schizophrenia and the other doesn’t? And what if one has agoraphobia and enochlophobia and the other doesn’t? Because this is essentially the choice women are faced with every day - they can open a dating app and swipe through guys, swiping left on guys with any obvious shortcomings while being quite certain that they will not run out of options for guys without these obvious issues who will match with them. Their problem is sorting through average guys to find an awesome guy while also not getting kidnapped and sold into the sex trade. Your problem is that your phobias make you a below average guy who is not even on the table for consideration.
Even women who are agoraphobic or enochlophobic will be largely uninterested in you, because there are plenty of guys who do not have those problems who are willing to say “don’t worry babe, I’ll go get the groceries if the store is too crowded right now.” Women like tall men with strong jawlines, but more than that they care about personality. Confidence. Social acuity. Leadership ability. You know what’s really fucking hot? The guy who organizes pickup frisbee in the park. The guy who starts dancing at the concert before everyone else, and gets everyone else dancing, too. The guy who comes up and introduces himself at a party like he’s someone worth knowing. Your problem isn’t that you can’t introduce yourself confidently yet - your problem is that you aren’t even at the party!
Dating is a numbers game. And you might, by sheer chance, find someone who is interested in you. But it’s a slim chance - made slimmer by the fact that you actively avoid the best opportunities to meet a lot of people, ie, out in public where there are… a lot of people. There is no place you can go with a high concentration of women who are interested in people with your specific mental disabilities. The only good advice for you is to become a more appealing man. The only way to get better at the numbers game is to play more times or improve your odds. Self improvement improves your odds. Meeting more women means more chances to play.
So. Unequivocally. Your top, most important, number one priority for your dating life should be overcoming your phobias. Period. I am being blunt with you because you seem to have missed the point the other comments made. Phobias respond well to therapeutic treatments that we have. Go to therapy. Put the work in. If you run into other problems along the way, figure them out. Get to the point where you can live a normal life, have a few hobbies that you regularly participate in outside the house, and have a solid group of friends who you hang out with in real life. Then you are at the starting line for finding someone to date.
Like what exactly?
Just saying ‘go online’ and nothing else for starters. I ‘went online’ in the mid-2000s and found nothing but PUA and early manosphere crap that was utterly stupid and did far more damage to me socially in the long term that I didn’t even begin to fix until more than 13 years after the fact. It didn’t bring any positive results either. But due to my circumstances I just really didn’t know any better.
Also when I did ‘go online’ or ‘to bars’ and I described some highly weird experiences that I knew weren’t normal they would twist the events so badly that it makes me wonder if they were the autistic ones and not me.
For example when I was 22 years old, I went to a bar and started talking to this woman. She was older than me and kinda vague, lied to me about her name, lied about her martial status (before taking everything back, but never telling me her real name). This was in Dubai I might add, so the social dynamic is a very different place than it would be in north america… and would also really come back to bite me later. The only shit I had to go by was offering her a drink at the start…
But here is a kicker… no one ever bought her a drink before. Apparently she literally did not watch any western media or ignored whatever was on screen. Because the whole concept of anyone walking up to anyone in a bar and buying them a drink was a legit alien experience to her.
Long story short… I saw her a second time a few weeks later at the same bar and she had some friends with her. She treated me like I was an ATM and basically thought that as long as she groped at me inappropriately (she even grabbed my head and shoved it against her breasts, forcibly I might add since I tried to resist) she could ask for meals and drinks and spending money for her and her friends (without the slightest hint of reciprocal sex). However she and friends were giddy and laughing while doing it.
I described the situation to them as I am here without mentioning the whole ‘this person never had a person buy her a drink’ but I DID add it later.
However this did nothing to convince them that they were trying to manipulate them, and they insisted that actually I should have gone for it and lost my virginity in a threesome with some MILFs that day. I am mildly exaggerating, but that was the gist of it.
BTW, just as an FYI, in many bars I went to in Dubai, they were lousy with sex workers. I did have plenty of girls touch me and act all giddy (but not ask for anything) and offer me ‘massages’ (which is a thinly veiled euphemism for sex in case it wasn’t obvious) for reasonable prices. The guys I was talking to weren’t in the middle east and just could not wrap their heads around my experiences being different from theirs.
Even with going online, they said nothing about where to go, how to make a good profile, what pictures to use or anything. Even trying to message people they insisted that you must never say anything other than ‘hi’ at first. This is even when they actually showed me what they did and had giant text walls that they sent detailing whatever was on her profile. I wasn’t able to replicate those, but their advice was just designed to make me waste my time.
Long story short. I am 41 now. Not a virgin, but dealing with a lot of bullshit. I dont care who I tell this to, but I am prepping to see a sexual therapist. I am practically writing my autobiography so I can just give it to them and bring them up to speed so I don’t waste tons of time and money just going on and on with the sessions. I need actual help and not just someone to talk to.
I’m sorry you had that experience. I had a similar, but different, experience. You keep referring to “they” who were giving you advice - who were these people and where did you meet them? It seems like this was a consistent group?
I eventually found some good advice, which boils down to:
Be honest. Be honest with people about who you are and what you are interested in. Some people might not like what you are offering. Some might even be offended. But this is all fine, as long as you are honest and respectful and talk to each woman with the assumption that the two of you are on the same team of figuring out if you are interested in each other.
Improve yourself. For most guys with dating issues, this includes things like going to therapy, building a healthy social life, being physically healthy, and generally being a happy person.
Talk to lots of women. People are different and want different things. In order to find the women who want what you have to offer, who are themselves offering what you want yourself, you need to talk to a lot of women.
Improving at these things is best accomplished from a place of a positive mindset, good mental health, and with a strong support system.
(Part 2 of 2)
but holy SHIT did he make me look bad. I need to mention that everything he said was a lie. and I even pointed out to him then and there that going to that group was his idea, not mine, and I pointed out to him that everyone around him who was in a relationship did not do anything remotely close to what he was saying.
Then he admitted to me that A: He never had a girlfriend, B: Never dated, C: had no idea how people actually met, and D: Was possibly a virgin. In short, I was extensively more experienced than he was, despite being from overseas.
I could go on forever, but I will stop here (gotta save it for my therapist). You actually did offer some real advice, and I did go out on some brunches on meetup.com and I am much calmer than I was before, and the girls there did talk to me far more than they did previously. Doesn’t mean I am going to getting laid left and right, but it is a much better start, and I actually have far more support from my job and the few family and friends that I have contact with, I had to cut out so many people from my life it isn’t funny.
(part 1 of 2) I need to save what I am writing here (since Lemmy is going to go down soon, sadly) and I need to save this for my autobiography for my therapist.
I am going to just write it right now. The person I was referring to was my brother. I recently 100% cut off my brother from my life and I will no longer speak to him. This isn’t something I have done on impulse, but it was more than 20 years coming. I simply had enough of his bullying, his twisting of everything I say, his accusations about me to my face, and countless other crap that I really, REALLY don’t want to get into. I even went so far as to tell both my parents that ‘This man is your son, but he is not my brother.’ He has always given me sabotaging advice and just stressed me out every single time we spoke, to the point where I would just lose it (again, almost every time) when talking to him and he is wholly and completely unaware and simultaneously does not care what an effect his words have on my emotional and mental state. I’ve been bled my heart out for over 15 years trying to show him how to communicate with me and how he is making me feel, but it is always ‘ummm, OK?’ and then he immediately returns to his old ways.
Like when I was trying to go out and meet people close to ten years ago, every single call from his was such a massive emotional drain that I could not longer socialize with people without getting them to be weirded out and straight up clam up when talking to me. One issue I had is simply getting girls (and I am referring to everyone, from 18 to 60) to just talk to me. The advise that he and others gave (and there are others) was ‘you have two ears and one mouth, listen twice as much as you speak’. This is all well and good… but if the girls are consistently clamming up and outright refusing to speak, it is kinda difficult to listen to pure silence. There are a lot of nasty people out there and constantly being rendered in a poor emotional state does not make it easier.
One other thing about him (and others, including relatives that I also had to cut out of my life) is the sheer contrarian nature of every discussion we have. I want girls, but they said ‘you gotta fix yourself up 100% first before going out’ or ‘you should ignore them and focus on (insert thing here) the girls will come by themselves and/or a waste of time’. None of this addresses that every single person saying it to me has NEVER practiced what they preached. They are always doing multiple things at the same time and going out and meeting people while doing this or that. The only take away is ‘fuck you, buddy, you don’t deserve anything. Just work for table scraps and maybe if you’re lucky a prostitute will fuck you for double price’.
I mean I mentioned my life in Dubai in brief. I need to also mention just how incredibly bizarre my life was there. I wrote over 12,000 words just detailing my first job in Dubai when I was growing up. If I had to describe all I remember we’d be going into novel length territory. On top of that, my brother (and other siblings) all went to college as young as 16 and did so overseas, away from home and my parents, meaning they got a taste of independence and the ability to explore and formulate their own independent lives very young. For me? My brother hinted that he had had fairly extensive sexual experiences well before the age of 20, and he had effectively done it all way before he was 23. But for me? I didn’t even leave home until I was 23, and I didn’t get my own place to finally stay in until I was 26 (going on 27). On top of that living with my parents was a choking experience. I can’t describe just how controlling they were on every single aspect of my life they had. They also simply did not understand even why I wanted to do things on my own, and I am not referring to major events, I am referring to really minor stuff like buying my own clothes without my mom effectively being the one to control what I wear and what I try on.
You might say ‘but dude! You’re a grown ass man! How the fuck did your mother just utterly ignore your expressions that you just want to buy your own shoes?’ Simply, they A: Straight up ignored it, saying ‘yes of course you can’ and then not, or saying ‘yes, of course you can, you are in charge, I am just there to offer you feedback’ when it is patently not true. Also she did not understand that her simple presence in following me around was highly distracting and disconcerting when I was trying to do basic things.
Even more on basic stuff. When I started working in Dubai, there were dress codes at the job that I had to adhere to. Now I am an autistic person and I grew up with schools that all demanded uniforms, so this was not a difficult thing for me to do… but for her? Every time I had to dress up it was a fight. The rules could not be more clear: You wear a shirt AND a tie to work. But she insisted that ‘your brother in Texas, they don’t wear ties there. in fact, they wear T-shirts and jeans. That looks better on you, and you are a young man, so dress like a young man!’ and she would actively fight every single step of the way until I just gave up and wore something entirely contrary to what the rules demanded. It was only when I was threatened to be fired by the manager who sent me back home that she finally let go of that… but only that one time. Every single interview it was the same fucking thing. She would insist on dressing me up like I was a toddler, and always with the same ‘In America they don’t…’ and no amount of calm and rational ‘but we are in Dubai, it isn’t the same here!’ ever got to her.
Can you imagine being someone in your early 20s and literally having to throw temper tantrums in order to just wear work-appropriate clothes every single time? With nothing carrying over to the next incident? Meaning you have to repeat the whole thing like a tired rerun every time. I have an anxiety disorder and this means when I get anxious or worked up, I REALLY get worked up, and it can hours or even a whole day for my adrenaline levels to come back down. This means that I can longer maintain a calm demeanour when going to a job interview or to work, and this is absolutely noticeable. And as you can tell, the employer doesn’t give a fuck, no one is going to respect someone whose mother has THAT much control over them when they are at that age.
You mentioned having a positive mindset, good mental health, and a strong support system. I had none at the time. Getting a positive mindset is very difficult when everyone around is always against you and on the side everyone telling you off, and it does nothing for your mental health, and I had an oppositional system. It was actually a miracle how I managed to do what I have done in my life with all that bullshit going around me. Again, I am not expecting girls to say ‘hmm, let me cut this guy some slack and fuck him’ that’s not how it works, nor would I want girls to give me pity lays or other such stuff.
And being honest about intentions is good… but you need to know how to properly be honest about your intentions in order for them to come off properly. Like when I came to Canada, I wanted to date girls a little younger than me (I was 24, so around 19-21), but even at my tender young age people saw that as extensively creepy, almost in the exact same that someone in their 50s targeting girls that young is seen as creepy. The thing is those very same people, and I have seen them, think nothing of the numerous people they know that DO have large age gaps in relationships with 10, 15, or even 20 year differences, but they did have an issue with me saying I wanted a younger girlfriend.
So you might think ‘maybe it is because you want to make that specific thing happen while for the others it just fell into place?’ I need to say something: I’ve seen how many of those others guys work. It rarely ‘just falls into place’, there is some effort that goes into it even if they aren’t conscious of it. Secondly, the reason why I wanted a younger girlfriend is not just because I wanted a younger girlfriend, I wanted a younger social circle. Period. The reason for this is due to the isolation I had and extensive controls, I wanted to have the experiences that I wanted to have at a much younger age with people of that age. I’ve also been accused of having a mid-life crisis. This isn’t the case. If that was the case it would be my 5th mid-life crisis so far, that’s not how they work.
Of course a lot of the stuff I did backfired badly. The younger crowd I did hang out with when I was in my early 30s (and I quickly moved away from) were principally a bunch of stoners, idiots, pathological liars, and directionless drifters. There was one stoner guy (who is one of the ‘them’ who gave me terrible advice) who said he would help me get laid and find a girlfriend and said he would be my wingman… only for him to do a 180 in the three outings we did together, make a completely fool out of me (not intentionally, he was just that inept and stupid) and even paint all my good characteristics as being douchey.
Like those people had gaming nights on weekends… and I made them some really, really fancy pizza. I pride myself on being a very accomplished cook. The pizza I made used a slow-rise New York style pizza dough that needs 3 day cold-rise and I made some sauce that has to be tasted to be believed. Despite this, when he belatedly ‘introduced’ to me a group organizer of a BDSM group (yes, it was his idea) he just spoke ‘this guy is freaking out all the time and thinks he can just walk up to a girl and get a date. I tried telling him, you need to spend a few months at least in a group and make friends with all her friends before you even talk to her, but he keeps talking about PUA and stuff… but he made a nice pizza it was OK I guess’ I am paraphrasing…
Frankly you sound like you have a great chance of moving past this, and it’s not weird to need some help or feedback from others, most of us do. It’s a shame the folks you found previously were such idiots, lots of people are really unqualified to give advice there. Keep pushing!
I wrote a big-ass comment just above, I’d appreciate it if you gave it a little look.
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but only the “2 of 2” appears (incl. in your comment history) from my perspective.