Patriotism is just a nice word people invented to be proud of their genocidal and colonialist country without feeling too bad about it.
If your whole identity is based on the fact you where born at some location on this planet, you really need some self reflection and deprogramming
I was within these borders while I crawled out of a vagina. it’s one of my greatest achievements and I’ll base my personality on that
fuck either of them.
no loyalty to any state.
Strange semi related old person story – back in highschool, one of our teachers had the class write essays on whether nationalism was good or bad. We were then given an option to either present our papers, or do a debate exercise with a kind of round robin pro or con. So you’d partner with 1 other person, debate if it was good or bad, then groups of 4 doing the same, until it was the whole class. In my paper and in my discussions, I had used a similar approach as this comic – basically just establishing what nationalism was vs patriotism, and drawing nazi’s in as an example too. No one in those discussions contested that Nazi’s were nationalists – but they still argued in favour of it.
By the end, I was the only person who thought nationalism was overall ‘bad’. The tide had turned in the groups of 8 stage. Because a hot girl had declared her support for nationalism. That’s all it took for people to like/excuse nazis, even back in the early 2000s. An excuse.
#JustEvolvedChimpanzeeThings
The only good fascist is a dead fascist
This is bullshit.
Even if the technical definition of “patriotism” is all of these good things, it doesn’t matter because everyone thinks it means all of those bad things.
Yeah, people try to push this patrotism = good, nationalism = bad thing, but it is meaningless, because patriotism has long since become what Reinhart Koselleck would call a “Grundbegriffe”, basically a universal term which everybody has accepted is good, but which everybody interprets and uses in a variety of different (and clashing) interpretations. It is a term you use to invoke that you are on the right side, regardless of what side you are on, because it just means “good”.
Additionally, overt patriotism is usually nationalism.
Looking at this meme in the first panel, pride in who you are eventually becomes pride in who you aren’t if you feel it strongly enough.
Office meme, they’re the same picture. The world no longer needs people who are willing to die for, or equally kill for, their country
Yes, but climate change, water wars and possibly a fundamental change to world order are likely. One might not get a choice, if they prefer to continue living in freedom and peace.
Doesn’t mean we need patriots though.
Yes if you can convince everyone in the world of this simultaneously, we’ll end all wars.
Do you think Vladimir Putin will agree with your sentiment?
And the brainwashing goes on and on…
The word “Republican”
actually comes fromis used today as a decolonial form of Nationalist movement, and they are usually Socialists. Elsewhere in the world, “Republican” still means something actually useful for human goddamn dignity. Since nobody sold out the premise like an American Colonizer party.You gonna tell an Irish Nationalist that they can’t celebrate or defend their people even as “Unionist” Pogroms ravage Catholic parts of Northern Ireland?
You gonna tell an Indigenous Nationalist that their people can’t have the land granted to them by treaties or stand for their people’s sovereign water supply?
You gonna tell a Jewish Nationalist that they can’t be Anti-Zionist, and build their idea of the Jewish Nation and its Diasporic people on standing up against oppression?
These illiterate, domesticated-ass liberals still think “nation = country = state”, like this is 2nd grade. The closest they get to reading is a twitter post, my essaying protects me from their eyes. And they want to talk about what Nationalism is.
Meanwhile Patriotism? Is bipartisan. And it is Stan-ing for a State even as it commits a Genocide. Fuck all of that, and fuck your state. May Trump’s incompetence burn the US’s ability to inflict violence upon the rest of the world.
he word “Republican” actually comes from a decolonial form of Nationalist movement, and they are always the Left party. Elsewhere in the world, “Republican” still means something actually useful for human goddamn dignity. Since nobody sold out the premise.
It has nothing to do with that at all. They are called Republicans for historical reasons, but the name has long since lost all relevance to any specific policies, it is just a name for a
sportspolitical team. Other political parties in other places are called Republicans for other localised reasons.Republic stems from the Roman res publica, but in modern political science it just means a state where the office of head of state isn’t hereditary, ie. basically not a monarchy. This was a key factor in the 18th century, since most European (and globally as well) states were monarchies, so being a republic did mean a drastic change in political system compared to the norm. Not so much anymore, since most states in the world are republics, but they have very drastically different political systems, some are dictatorships others democracies.
Yeah, thanks for the correction. Modern Republicanism has a nice Wikipedia page that was worth a perusal.
The former British Colonies tend to use the word “Republican” in a specifically Anti-British-Monarchy way as that Nation sought independence. This does not apply to the US party.
Beginning as Socialist Parties is also a notable trend, though not entirely universal among this category. In this, the US party fits the trend well - but has abandoned that principle. Now they want a damn king too. Its disgusting.
The word “republic” comes from res publica. Public thing.
Indeed, the meaning has been fully distorted, like anything else in the US, and sold to people with no moral, voted by people with no moral.
Yeah, fair point.
The original use? Is not how any single Republican Party I can find actually started. Instead it explicitly Anti-Monarchist, even Socialist Decolonialism for former British Colonies. Even the US party began along these lines - but ya know, the whole selling out thing.
Tell an Irish Republican you voted for Trump. I dare you.
“Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.”
—Mark Twain
um, no… Americocentric again
Nationalism has to do with pride in a shared cultural identity, whereas Patriotism is pride for one’s country.
in other countries, there are strong cultural ties that bond people together. shared language. a relationship to the land. hundreds if not thousands of years of history. some countries have dozens of such groups.
nationalism is a person from that group taking pride in that identity. patriotism is taking pride in your country as a whole. so for example, you can be proud to be Gujarati, and you can be proud to be Indian.
now, in the United States, there really isn’t a national identity beyond shopping malls and jingoism. so i can see how nationalism is rarely seen positively. all you get of it is nazis and fake irish frat bros.
but, no, really I think patriotism is a far bigger problem than nationalism. one’s language is your flesh and blood, it’s who you are. what the fuck does a country mean to you? the people who lock you up?
Both are stupid, especially if you live in the USA, where your government will let you be rendered homeless and dead in the street if you can’t pay enough money into the capitalist machine.
What’s to be proud of?
Biggest prison population!
National parks, innovation, highest level of freedom of speech (not anymore, lol, but ya know). Actually admitting to our racism and bigotry instead of pretending it doesn’t exist like European countries do, and instead trying to tackle the issues. Even if failing. A diverse population.
Patriotism is being a Simp for a State that doesn’t give a fuck about you.
National Parks
Stolen indigenous land?
innovation
So… Unless you can define what this means, I have to assume it involves Chinese manufacturing.
freedom of speech
Unless you’re on the actual Left that Democrats want to suppress and Republicans want to execute.
actually admitting our racism and bigotry [ . . . ] even if failing
Yeah… Uh… Im going to have to disagree - I see empty gestures made out of a fetish for decorum, which is a holdover from an even older Conservatism. That’s several history doctorates of a rabbit hole to unpack.
a diverse population
Finally, something good! I can get there with “love your neighbor” instead. No State-simping necessary
In a democracy, the state is not a formless, uninfluenced entity. It’s the way it is because the people are horrible. The state cares as much as any human in it cares for you. So no, don’t love thy neighbor, they’re the cause of this lol. Diversity is strength and great food but don’t mistake that with it meaning they are necessarily good people worthy of love
Unless you’re on the actual Left that Democrats want to suppress and Republicans want to execute.
“Want to” is not when your freedom of speech ends man. No, the dems are not taking away your freedom of speech
Yeah… Uh… Im going to have to disagree - I see empty gestures made out of a fetish for decorum, which is a holdover from an even older Conservatism.
I live in an area that is putting actual money into balancing the scales but yeah sure it’s just a empty words ~~~
In a democracy, the state is not a formless, uninfluenced entity. It’s the way it is because the people are horrible.
No deference to the systems we grow up in? No ability to understand context?
The US is not a Democracy.
Congrats. We’re all shit. All of us. You and me too. GO TO THERAPY.
Want to" is not when your freedom of speech ends man. No, the dems are not taking away your freedom of speech
I didn’t realize all I had to do was “talk” to have my material needs met. To have my ideas as part of the political conversation.
Wait, I do that, to people, face to face. We still have ghost jobs polluting our employment statistics, and blackshirts on the streets abducting neighbors.
I live in an area that is putting actual money into balancing the scales but yeah sure it’s just a empty words ~
Congrats. How did you get there? I need you to understand that is a privilege not all of us have. And without further detail, I’m curious about how many of your neighbors face a different reality.
The US is not a Democracy
Technically correct in that it’s a Republic. Same thing applies
No deference to the systems we grow up in? No ability to understand context?
People who can soley understand the system they grew up and not improve it are the issue, yes
I didn’t realize all I had to do was “talk” to have my material needs met. To have my ideas as part of the political conversation.
Freedom of speech is quite literally about immaterial needs, not material ones. There is no right or reason to have a right to include all views in politics.
How did you get there? I need you to understand that is a privilege not all of us have.
By voting? People voted to spend government money to even harms done in the past. That’s not privilege; that’s a choice made when voting. Not sure what you mean by neighbors having a different reality, my neighbors are getting bettered by good governance because we voted for good politicians
Technically correct in that it’s a Republic
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/princeton-experts-say-us-no-longer-democracy
Nah. Actually, it does not represent you, what you care about, or anything about you. Quit simping for your own destruction.
By voting?
Oh. You’re not serious. Thanks for the notice to block you.
And you are, citing that? Lol
Life in Europe is much better than in the US for any ethnicity.
*except Roma
Europe is pretty racist too, it just manifests itself differently.
No kidding. Still funny when they pretend they’re not racist over there especially when Germany has an active nazi party just like the states does lol
As if the us doesn’t have neonazis. We don’t pretend anything, dear maga idiot. What you are spewing is what your propaganda taught you to think.
Huh? Did you miss the
just like the states
I put in there? Like no shit we have a nazi party. It’s the Republicans. Germany as well has one, the AFD, and it’s quite large too.
Eu absolutely love to get on a high horse pretending they’re not racist
Whatever helps you feel better.
Oh boy, this is exactly what I was talking about lol. Thanks for proving my point
Existed just 4 years
Lost a war againt the USA
Prouldy waved 150 years later
But muh heritage…
Both are tribalism of different levels of intensity. Our brains are predisposed for us-them mentality, some stronger than others, some can leave it behind others never will. It’s also the most exploitable feeling in the history of our species, with fear may be the close contender.
Obviously a government embracing tribalism leads to horrid shit (everyone without an armband knows it) BUT ignoring it completely allows something else snake its way into that void. If you’re lucky its something vegetarian like football hooliganism, if you-re not – pan-nationalism, religious zealotry, whatever the 4chan incel shit is, people who can’t or won’t leave tribal mentality will find a dirt to roll in.
IMHO it is worth considering implementing a civic religion a-la french republicanism. Yes it can be a gateway to nationalism, but it also lets tribal minded people wave their flags and “guard the civic values” or whatever while the rest of us continue our lives in peace. As a bonus it improves civic participation and if you’re attacked – well there’s already something for you to rally around.
Nah, fuck that. Patriotism is just nationalism light.
I had a pledge that I would buy a Union-made American Flag and plant it firmly in my lawn if two things happened (1) Harris was elected President, and (2) Trump served any prison time.
Nationalism fuels fascism, but I think patriotism can be a healthy pride; sort of like how one distinguishes confidence from arrogance.
Ultimately patriotism is a neutral term and is decided upon whether you agree with your national identity in both where your nation is, and where it is heading. I naturally don’t agree with either at present, and so I’m not patriotic. Some are patriotic for the wrong reasons. If we get back to our roots, then I will perhaps one day have pride in being an American again.
if we get back to our roots
You mean racism, sexism, and exploitation? Because that’s what our roots are.
O, let America be America again— The land that never has been yet— And yet must be—the land where every man is free.
I had a pledge that I would buy a Union-made American Flag and plant it firmly in my lawn if two things happened (1) Harris was elected President, and (2) Trump served any prison time.
This is so god damn funny. A hexbear tagline if I’ve ever seen one.
I think genuine patriotism is a bit more than what you describe. Your lack of pride in being an American is motivated by a desire for an America that is worthy of pride. To me that is still patriotism in essence even if outwardly it seems like the opposite.
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Someone tried to wipe out the Jews, so nationalism for a Jewish state must be healthy too, right?
Or maybe nationalism is just a tool to manipulate people and make them ignorant of the problems in a government. Fatah is incredibly corrupt but you don’t seem to care about that because you believe in some nationalistic narrative. There would already be a Palestinian state if there was strong leadership. But using narratives about historical humiliation, misogyny, hatred of other ethnic groups, reclaiming a glorious past (all hallmarks of fascist manipulation) means people are less likely to demand better leadership and corrupt governments can persist.
Exactly. It’s the gateway drug to fascism.
Fuck it all.
Is there anything that you don’t think is a gateway drug to fascism?
Interesting. Color me skeptical, but I’ve been around for a minute, and that smacks of bait.
It’s not bait, it’s criticism
No, it simply is not.
It’s a loaded, low-effort question that puts the onus on your target and required nothing from you at all.
That said, if it wasn’t in bad faith, I welcome you to try again. Otherwise, I can easily find better things to do than waste more time on trolls, friendo.
You can dance in circles all you want, it’s not going to change anything. You’re taking concepts that have nothing to do with fascism and attributing them to it regardless. Saying patriotism a gateway drug to fascism is like saying “community is a gateway drug to cults.” Just because both involve belonging and loyalty doesn’t mean one inevitably leads to the other. It’s the distortion, not the foundation, that creates danger.
Trying to twist something that’s normal, healthy, and even necessary like patriotism or community into something toxic, shows that you’re disingenuous, which is ironic considering your spiel here. Just because you say something is poisonous that doesn’t that it is.
Oh, you silly frothy fuckwit. I simply called out your bullshit “question”, and was clearly accurate in presuming it was, in fact, bait.
Your attempts to weaponize the word salad sloshing around in that soggy head aren’t doing you any favors, so how about this:
Read a fucking book that isn’t Mein Kampf.
Don’t forget to breathe. (optional)
Bye, Felisha.
BTW, for those playing along at home, “community” is essential. “Patriotism” is not. Don’t suffer these idiots. Call them out, every time. You are not alone, friends. We got this. ✊🏼
So I can’t be proud of being from my country? City? Neighborhood? I don’t think it’s so black and white unless you have another term to describe being happy about where you’re from.
Just be happy about where you are from.
How do you appropriately label that feeling of being happy you are where you are from?
I describe the Feeling as “happiness” or “fondness”, never proudness. The place I identify with differs depending on the context. It is mostly my city, the part of my country or the part of Europe, I live in.
I have to disagree. Without at least a little pride or the want to have pride in where we come from, what incentive is there to do things like cataloging history or preserving cultures and languages. I don’t think all cultures are objectively or subjectively good by any stretch, but their information, knowledge, and ritual is 100% worth cataloging and knowing, if anything just to preserve knowledge of what not to do.
For example, the confederate south. Is it worth keeping up monuments and statues honoring the traitors? Absolutely not. Is it worth keeping knowledge of what happened so that we might not repeat it? Absolutely. Without a healthy amount of patriotism, in this case the hope that where we come from can improve, why wouldn’t we just wipe away that history and pretend it didn’t happen? That’s a major line where it switches from patriotism to nationalism.
But mostly it’s just the want to improve where you’re from that’s why I believe you should have a healthy amount of patriotism. Without it, why bother doing anything at all, from protesting to
riotingviolent encouragement to do something different.Anyways, hope that what my overly caffeinated brain wrote down makes sense
I really don’t get your point. I consider myself to be an anarcho-communist and will start a volunteer year at an archaeoligical institution to see if I want to study it at a university.
You don’t need to love your country to learn about it.
You do not need to love your nation-state to want to preserve history or learn from the past.
That is such warped logic.
Why pride if interest is more than enough? A nation is inherently an invention. It creates a story why it came to be and why all the different cultures in it’s territory are now “the people”. I don’t think you need that to be happy about where you live and/or to improve. It is also not needed to document history.
And nationalism is bad, because? Nationalism when taken to the extreme can be bad because it’s extreme, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with nationalism.
If you cannot see, why the ideology that brought us both World Wars, Russias war against Ukraine and so many more modern conflicts, was the base of colonialism and neo-colonialism, imperialism, 20th century slavery, fascism, zionism and that let us buold borders where thousands die every year, you are lost.
This is just a piss poor understanding of history, nationalism, and geopolitics.
Let’s take the Ukraine war as an example. Russia is not a nation state, it’s an empire. Empires are usually multiethnic, hierarchical, and expansionist, ruling over diverse peoples through centralized authority and often unequal legal or political status. Ukraine, on the other hand, is a nation state because it’s organized around a shared national identity that is defined by common language, culture, or ethnicity, and it treats all of its citizens as equals under the law. This war is basically between Russian imperialists who want to expand the empire and Ukrainian nationalists who want to defend their nation.
Using your flawed logic, Ukrainians are bad people because they believe in and are actively defending an ideology that you falsely attribute to everything bad to has ever happened in the world and in history. That’s just nonsense.
Your example is very bad, to be honest. Both Russia and Ukraine are states. All states today claim to be nations. Every nation is a social construct, made by inventing or at least warping history to explain the creation of a nation. States tend to equalize the people living on it’s territory by introducing things like law, language, traditions or education. And they are actively trying to tell this story of “the people” to legitimate themselves. But the people are not the same. Look at your own country, wherever you live. There are always vast differences between places in different cardinal directions or at the borders vs. inland, between richer and poorer regions or between urban and rural areas. In Russia, that becomes very obvious, but it is the same everywhere.
Nationalism is the root of everything, I described. Nothing of that would have existed without a strong nationalist movement. Sure, there can be more or less extreme forms of nationalism, but this ideoligy is always dividing territory and people into the inside and outside.
Every Ukrainian fighting against Russian imperialism is fine. But at the end, I hope there are more people left to rebuilt the country, who fought for their freedom and not for some fucking glorious Father/Motherland.
Nationalism when taken to the extreme can be bad because it’s extreme, but there’s nothing inherently wrong with nationalism.
What you just described, this “mild nationalism?” There’s a word for that: patriotism. Nationalism is extreme patriotism.
Nationalism: an ideology that elevates one nation or nationality above all others and that places primary emphasis on promotion of its culture and interests as opposed to those of other nations, nationalities, or supranational groups
-Merriam-Webster Dictionary
And when nationalism becomes even more extreme, it becomes chauvinism or jingoism.
Chauvinism: undue partiality or attachment to a group or place to which one belongs or has belonged; excessive or blind patriotism; an attitude of superiority toward members of the opposite sex
Jingoism: extreme chauvinism or nationalism marked especially by a belligerent foreign policy
When Hitler promised to build a wall around Germany to keep immigrants from diluting German culture during his campaign, that was nationalism. American isolationists were/are nationalists.
The Republican Party in the 90s and 2000s was a nationalist party bordering on chauvinism. The party of Trump is a jingoist party that hits every definition of chauvinism at the same time.
What you just described, this “mild nationalism?” There’s a word for that: patriotism. Nationalism is extreme patriotism
This is just false. Nationalism is just the idea that a nation should be sovereign. The Meriam Webster definition you cited is just a contemporary definition, the original definition is the second one listed here:
: support for and promotion of the political independence or self-determination of a nation or people
Source: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/nationalism
Nationalism isn’t a more extreme version of patriotism. Nationalism describes an ideology while patriotism describes a particular set of emotions. The two could overlap, but they’re not the same thing at different points of a spectrum.
there’s nothing inherently wrong with fascism
Can I ask what your definition of “fascism” is?
That was a typo, I meant to say nationalism. There’s definitely a lot inherently wrong with fascism
Hell of a typo, but fair enough.
I was thinking about another comment I wanted to reply to while typing that one and my brain just mixed the two.
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A Kurd wanting their people to have self determination and independence is a Kurdish nationalist. Calling someone like that a loser is demonstration of your ignorance.
Every “nationalist” believes themselves a “patriot”.
All this image does is allow you to self-soothe that you’re “one of the good ones”.