I’m pretty sure that most of the solid anti-war protestors would expect Ukraine to just accept Russian territorial demands, up to and including complete annexation.
It turns into a reductio ad absurdum pretty quickly though. Putin didn’t seem to return Crimea or the occupied regions of Donbass and Luhansk when asked politely. Not even when asked sternly. Indeed, it would seem that when all he faced was stern disapproval he decided to come back for more.
There is no doubt in my mind that supporting Ukraine now is stopping more Russian aggression later. Besides, Putin can end this war any time. Just go back to the original borders. The only reason not to is his yearning for Imperial glory. The irony being that many of these anti-war protestors would probably proclaim themselves anti-colonialists.
You didn’t tell me what action will end the war faster, other going to the negotiating table. Ukraine is running out of bodies to throw into the meat grinder. This is a war of attrition, and the numbers are not in their favor.
You’re right, they should just roll over and accept Russian domination.
Their comment, of course, was overly simplistic. I’m sure what they meant was “then why are they protesting action that will end the war in Ukraine’s favor faster”.
If you only care about blindly ending war as soon as possible by any means necessary, you definitely have two major options. Either let the aggressor do whatever they want, or use overwhelming force to utterly destroy them.
If you only care about blindly ending war as soon as possible by any means necessary, you definitely have two major options. Either let the aggressor do whatever they want, or use overwhelming force to utterly destroy them.
Except this is assuming that the US is omnipotent. The US cannot use overwhelming force to defeat Russia in the conflict. That leaves only not supplying arms to reduce the length of the war and casualties.
Ah, whataboutism, the first recourse of the desperate to appear neutral.
The US military industrial complex, and the politicians who serve it, have a lot to answer for. Keeping Ukrainians from being overrun by wannabe world dominators is not one of them.
Your principle seems to be pointing fingers at the big boys while you let the small fries die in trenches, begging for help that will never come because “It’s just not right for the US to do things!”
I dont have that principle, I think there are cases when you should and when you shouldn’t [let aggressors do whatever they want]
Personally I don’t think there’s any case where we should be telling other peoples to just accept their annexation or colonization. I’d be interested to hear the argument otherwise.
I’m more concerned about the US. Why is biggest kid on the block when it comes to genocide and war so enthusiastic to supply Ukraine with arms?
Because it defends American hegemony and weakens an anti-American state. It’s not a hard question to answer. That doesn’t mean it’s not also the right thing to do regardless. Bad people can go good things for bad reasons. Unfortunately some seem to think the deaths of Ukrainians and pillaging of their land is a sacrifice worth making in order to geopolitically weaken America. I’m all for reducing America’s global power, but I’m not so cruel as to choose other people’s lives to trade for it against their will.
If Ukraine wants to defend itself, I think it’s a good thing to air them in that; I also think making such invasions as difficult and expensive as possible is the anti-war position.
So I’m gonna come over to your house and commandeer 2 bedrooms. You can’t do anything about it, because that would be violent and non-productive. Thanks for the 2 bedrooms. I’m gonna shit on the carpet and in 10 years send my children to take the rest of your house. But again, you can’t do anything because that would be violent and non-progressive.
Because you know, wouldn’t want there to be any conflict or anything.
This is so brain dead. Let’s frame using your idiocy.
Russia is a house. Ukraine is a house. USA is a house. Russia gave up on their project of building a workers’ state and attempted to join the liberal capitalist world dominated by the USA. The USA sent economists to Russia’s house. The economic reforms killed as many people as though Russia had been invaded.
Still, Russia wanted to join the USA’s economic dominance. But, the USA had built a transnational nuclear military specifically to counter the Russian military. They staffed it with officers from the Third Reich. They built Operation Gladio, Operation Paperclip, and Operation Aerodynamic. These operations grabbed the most violent bullies in the world and protected them, put them into houses neighboring Russia’s house, and took the one’s already there and gave them all weapons and training.
Still, Russia wanted to join the USA’s economic dominance. They asked the USA to not expand NATO to its borders, sorry, to it’s front lawn because that would be impossible for Russia to defend against. Russia was run by a stooge that the USA controlled. That stooge hand-picked Putin under USA guidance. Putin continued attempting to appease the USA despite it’s bullying. Russia was trying to join NATO to ensure mutual security concerns could be discussed in committee instead of on the battle field.
The USA finally rejected Russia explicitly and kept training and arming bullies. Every time the HOA tried to ban the practice of glorifying the Nazi bullies in the neighborhood, the USA vetoed it.
The USA kept building more and more gangs and they kept building more supply lines and more weapons and more capabilities and finally tried to install those capabilities on Russia’s front lawn. During this time, Russia escalated its readiness and it even took military action to prove that if the gangs kept coming they would react.
The gangs kept coming.
Russia reacted.
Your story has absolutely ZERO relevance to the actual history of the situation.
Stop trying to simplify geopolitics into interpersonal metaphors.
In your metaphor what is the billions in human killing machines that NATO et al supply to Ukraine? Who would be the thousands dead and families destroyed?
I’ll stop simplifying geopolitics as soon as you recognize the right of the Ukrainian people to defend their land by whatever means is necessary. Every nation in the history of mankind has conscripted its citizens to aid in its defense. Russia will continue to take, and take, and take until someone shows them they cannot take freely any more. This anti-war absolutism is Russian propaganda designed to further their goals of illegal annexation of territory belonging to Ukraine.
Yeah! Why can’t they just roll over and die instead? Smh people fighting not to lose their homes or worse are so inconvenient to us. Sometimes we have to read about it and be upset! Absolutely unacceptable these people should care more about how they’re making people on the internet feel and stop defending themselves so much. As someone that’s entitled and privileged I surely know what is best for them.
Is it actually reducing harm to fight to the last Ukrainian though? There were multiple attempts at peace that were sabotaged by either nazi paramilitaries or nato-member politicians. Remember when Zelensky traveled to the front to tell them to respect the ceasefire during Minsk 2 and they didn’t? Maybe the people sabotaging peace would be less bold knowing the US isn’t going to keep supplying arms.
I have never thought of the usa helping ukraine because they are interested in ukranian peoples lives. I see them fighting because gaining an ally with great resources and an excellent geographic position is important to maintain power.
They are also testing the new way of running a war between first world armies.
Perhaps I’m wrong but this war benefits american interests beyond being world police.
Or, and stay with me here, we have a blueprint from about a hundred years ago of what happens when you just let a powerful county annex surrounding countries. Spoiler Alert, they don’t just stop at 1.
If the US hadn’t continually expanded NATO eastward against its stated promises, and hadn’t affected a coup in Ukraine in 2014, and hadn’t flooded Ukraine with weapons under the Trump & Biden administrations, then the Russian invasion probably wouldn’t have happened in the first place.
Turns out it’s more complicated than “person does bad things, and so every single action and affect of their action is completely cartoonishly evil”. Doesn’t mean some things they do AREN’T, don’t get me wrong.
THAT’S the war they choose to protest?
Presumably, antiwar protestors protest every war. Basically, a return to WW2 America’s policy of non-intervention.
That’s not the best way to sell it, me thinks lol
Turns out being anti-war protesters means they’re ANTI WAR.
What do you want them to do? Raise funds to send some missles over?
I guess Ukraine could just use hopes and prayers to get Putin out of their front yard.
I’m pretty sure that most of the solid anti-war protestors would expect Ukraine to just accept Russian territorial demands, up to and including complete annexation.
It turns into a reductio ad absurdum pretty quickly though. Putin didn’t seem to return Crimea or the occupied regions of Donbass and Luhansk when asked politely. Not even when asked sternly. Indeed, it would seem that when all he faced was stern disapproval he decided to come back for more.
There is no doubt in my mind that supporting Ukraine now is stopping more Russian aggression later. Besides, Putin can end this war any time. Just go back to the original borders. The only reason not to is his yearning for Imperial glory. The irony being that many of these anti-war protestors would probably proclaim themselves anti-colonialists.
Exactly.
If these anti-war protesters want to yell at the people who can stop the war, they need to protest at the Russian embassy.
Then why are they protesting action that will end the war faster?
You didn’t answer the question.
You didn’t tell me what action will end the war faster, other going to the negotiating table. Ukraine is running out of bodies to throw into the meat grinder. This is a war of attrition, and the numbers are not in their favor.
Wouldn’t providing Ukraine with more weapons extend the war? Their latest offensive shows they’re running on fumes.
You’re right, they should just roll over and accept Russian domination.
Their comment, of course, was overly simplistic. I’m sure what they meant was “then why are they protesting action that will end the war in Ukraine’s favor faster”.
If you only care about blindly ending war as soon as possible by any means necessary, you definitely have two major options. Either let the aggressor do whatever they want, or use overwhelming force to utterly destroy them.
Which is your preference?
Except this is assuming that the US is omnipotent. The US cannot use overwhelming force to defeat Russia in the conflict. That leaves only not supplying arms to reduce the length of the war and casualties.
So you prefer just letting aggressors do whatever they want, got it.
As anti-war as you or I may be, there’s more than enough petty dictators who are more than happy to be pro-war and fuck up the world.
I dont have that principle, I think there are cases when you should and when you shouldn’t.
I’m more concerned about the US. Why is biggest kid on the block when it comes to genocide and war so enthusiastic to supply Ukraine with arms?
Especially given operation AERODYNAMIC by the cia…
Ah, whataboutism, the first recourse of the desperate to appear neutral.
The US military industrial complex, and the politicians who serve it, have a lot to answer for. Keeping Ukrainians from being overrun by wannabe world dominators is not one of them.
Your principle seems to be pointing fingers at the big boys while you let the small fries die in trenches, begging for help that will never come because “It’s just not right for the US to do things!”
Personally I don’t think there’s any case where we should be telling other peoples to just accept their annexation or colonization. I’d be interested to hear the argument otherwise.
Because it defends American hegemony and weakens an anti-American state. It’s not a hard question to answer. That doesn’t mean it’s not also the right thing to do regardless. Bad people can go good things for bad reasons. Unfortunately some seem to think the deaths of Ukrainians and pillaging of their land is a sacrifice worth making in order to geopolitically weaken America. I’m all for reducing America’s global power, but I’m not so cruel as to choose other people’s lives to trade for it against their will.
If Ukraine wants to defend itself, I think it’s a good thing to air them in that; I also think making such invasions as difficult and expensive as possible is the anti-war position.
Good thing pretty much every western country is supporting Ukraine’s defensive war effort.
Nobody expects the US to be the sole support for Ukraine.
How is that going?
We’ve sent billions to Ukraine, seems to only have ended in more dead people and little progress.
So I’m gonna come over to your house and commandeer 2 bedrooms. You can’t do anything about it, because that would be violent and non-productive. Thanks for the 2 bedrooms. I’m gonna shit on the carpet and in 10 years send my children to take the rest of your house. But again, you can’t do anything because that would be violent and non-progressive.
Because you know, wouldn’t want there to be any conflict or anything.
This is so brain dead. Let’s frame using your idiocy.
Russia is a house. Ukraine is a house. USA is a house. Russia gave up on their project of building a workers’ state and attempted to join the liberal capitalist world dominated by the USA. The USA sent economists to Russia’s house. The economic reforms killed as many people as though Russia had been invaded.
Still, Russia wanted to join the USA’s economic dominance. But, the USA had built a transnational nuclear military specifically to counter the Russian military. They staffed it with officers from the Third Reich. They built Operation Gladio, Operation Paperclip, and Operation Aerodynamic. These operations grabbed the most violent bullies in the world and protected them, put them into houses neighboring Russia’s house, and took the one’s already there and gave them all weapons and training.
Still, Russia wanted to join the USA’s economic dominance. They asked the USA to not expand NATO to its borders, sorry, to it’s front lawn because that would be impossible for Russia to defend against. Russia was run by a stooge that the USA controlled. That stooge hand-picked Putin under USA guidance. Putin continued attempting to appease the USA despite it’s bullying. Russia was trying to join NATO to ensure mutual security concerns could be discussed in committee instead of on the battle field.
The USA finally rejected Russia explicitly and kept training and arming bullies. Every time the HOA tried to ban the practice of glorifying the Nazi bullies in the neighborhood, the USA vetoed it.
The USA kept building more and more gangs and they kept building more supply lines and more weapons and more capabilities and finally tried to install those capabilities on Russia’s front lawn. During this time, Russia escalated its readiness and it even took military action to prove that if the gangs kept coming they would react.
The gangs kept coming.
Russia reacted.
Your story has absolutely ZERO relevance to the actual history of the situation.
Stop trying to simplify geopolitics into interpersonal metaphors.
In your metaphor what is the billions in human killing machines that NATO et al supply to Ukraine? Who would be the thousands dead and families destroyed?
I’ll stop simplifying geopolitics as soon as you recognize the right of the Ukrainian people to defend their land by whatever means is necessary. Every nation in the history of mankind has conscripted its citizens to aid in its defense. Russia will continue to take, and take, and take until someone shows them they cannot take freely any more. This anti-war absolutism is Russian propaganda designed to further their goals of illegal annexation of territory belonging to Ukraine.
You know what would have prevented that? Russia not invading Ukraine.
Yes, only Russia should send billions of dollars worth of human killing machines to Ukraine.
Clearly the solution is to escalate, sending MORE weapons! That can only possibly SAVE lives!
Yeah! Why can’t they just roll over and die instead? Smh people fighting not to lose their homes or worse are so inconvenient to us. Sometimes we have to read about it and be upset! Absolutely unacceptable these people should care more about how they’re making people on the internet feel and stop defending themselves so much. As someone that’s entitled and privileged I surely know what is best for them.
Actually, yeah. Eventually Putin will run out of meat to send into the grinder and he’ll stop fucking with other countries’ borders.
I can respect the desire for a policy of complete non-intervention.
cringe. It’s actually good to take action to reduce harm.
Is it actually reducing harm to fight to the last Ukrainian though? There were multiple attempts at peace that were sabotaged by either nazi paramilitaries or nato-member politicians. Remember when Zelensky traveled to the front to tell them to respect the ceasefire during Minsk 2 and they didn’t? Maybe the people sabotaging peace would be less bold knowing the US isn’t going to keep supplying arms.
When Russia is trying to commit genocide against Ukraine? Yes.
Do you have a source for Russia doing genocide or are you just referring to the war?
It’s been widely reported by numerous nations and organizations. Search for “Russian genocide Ukraine” and you’ll see plenty of credible sources
https://www.google.com/search?q=Russian+genocide+Ukraine&oq=Russian+genocide+Ukraine&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBBzk3OWowajeoAgCwAgA&client=ms-android-verizon&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#ip=1
So no then? Did you learn to critically read the news in school?
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What were the terms of this peace? Do you have sources to back up your claims?
Are you not aware of Minsk 1 or Minsk 2? There are more but those are the big ones
No I am not. Would you kindly explain and provide sources for this and all your other claims?
No, I think it is reasonable for you to go out and research two well known and easily researchable treaties. I am not your secretary.
I have never thought of the usa helping ukraine because they are interested in ukranian peoples lives. I see them fighting because gaining an ally with great resources and an excellent geographic position is important to maintain power.
They are also testing the new way of running a war between first world armies.
Perhaps I’m wrong but this war benefits american interests beyond being world police.
Or, and stay with me here, we have a blueprint from about a hundred years ago of what happens when you just let a powerful county annex surrounding countries. Spoiler Alert, they don’t just stop at 1.
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Psy-ops.
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No involvement other than the thirty-odd years of provocation since the end of the cold war.
C.J. Polychroniou, Dec. 23, 2021: Chomsky: Outdated US Cold War Policy Worsens Ongoing Russia-Ukraine Conflict
That totally justifies killing 50 people in a grocery store. Why would the US force Putin to do this?
If the US hadn’t continually expanded NATO eastward against its stated promises, and hadn’t affected a coup in Ukraine in 2014, and hadn’t flooded Ukraine with weapons under the Trump & Biden administrations, then the Russian invasion probably wouldn’t have happened in the first place.
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He’s a war criminal who bombed his own people within his own borders in order to get into power. There are virtually no leftists who are confused about what kind of person Putin is.
Then why are you - and Chomsky - making excuses for him?
We’re not making excuses for him.
Turns out it’s more complicated than “person does bad things, and so every single action and affect of their action is completely cartoonishly evil”. Doesn’t mean some things they do AREN’T, don’t get me wrong.