- cross-posted to:
- memes@hexbear.net
- cross-posted to:
- memes@hexbear.net
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Dune = White Man Saviour (literally turned into a god) + ludditism + coopting west asian aesthetics, on the background of real world imperialist mass murders for oil (the allegory that spice stands for isn’t really that deep). Herbert was a reactionary orientialist and it shows in his works
(Still enjoyed the series when I read it before becoming an ML)
Honestly my biggest gripe with the series is it does the “feudal monarchy in space” trope unironically, which I hate because a feudal-style monarchy could not actually function at any scale on even a planetary level never mind a multi-planetary level.
I really really really wish sci-fi writers would stop trying to make space monarchies a thing.
I wish writers would stop trying to inject royalty into any and every theme in general. Partly because they often end up whitewashing what monarchy is like to present kings or queens as troubled leaders facing dire threats who are trying to do right by their people. (To be clear, I’m not saying this happens in Dune. It’s been too long since I read it to remember. It’s more so modern stuff that I’m thinking of.)
True.
Even as someone writing a medieval fantasy setting right now I’m trying to avoid filling the world with nothing but monarchies - with those monarchies I am depicting being more accurate to history and less romanticized.
From my ttrpg experience, you can deromanticize aristocrats to the point where damn near every one of them enthusiastically shows off his prized PeasantGrinder9001 with live serfs thrown in for extra effect and people will still act as if they are ultimately well intentioned, legitimate leaders who are just a little out of touch maybe and they just need some gentle persuasion to do better for their subjects that they obviously care about. Monarchybrain runs deep.
I find it strange that so many monarchies in the West were overthrown by literal violent revolution and yet the revolutionaries kinda wimped out when it came to anti-monarchy propaganda thereafter.
Like, look at the “No Kings” rallies. Look how they phrase it: “No Kings in America”. Kings are fine elsewhere, just not here. These same people will gush over the Windsors and obsess over the royalist drama from the UK. It’s perfectly fine if its over there as long as it’s not here. Just bizarre. Liberal republicans really went half-way on this shit.
In its defense, Dune was written in the '60s, so if anything the explosion in the genre is due to its success. The later books are also lighter on those themes and more bizarre, but very fun to read.
Space monarchies were a thing well before the 60s or Dune was written. It’s an old trope going all the way back to the early days of sci-fi.
I think the reason it works is purely because of how restricted travel and technology is. In the later books, when the monopoly on space travel is broken and the restrictions on machines are lifted, the forms of government diversify.
I dunno, for me it was hard to see paul as a part of the classic white savior trope when he was the result of a thousand year’s eugenics program laid out by the same people who planted the superstition that allowed him to command the fremen.
Had the series ended after just one book I’d be more likely to agree with you, but Paul and his empire go on to sterilize / murder billions of people for an abstract goal only realized by his son who becomes a human-worm hybrid.
I appreciate the franchises lack of emphases on technology and the politics are entertaining even if the feudal monarchy in space thing is, well goofy to put it best.
Of Paul’s son according to the wiki:
God Emperor was the title associated with Leto Atreides II after he ascended to the throne of the Atreides Empire. ---- The title did not endure well after his death. During his life, Leto II’s enemies referred to him as The Tyrant, and it was by this title that history better remembered him.
Herbert was a reactionary orientialist and it shows in his works
not to mention sexist AF:
For the Princess Irulan, my father’s daughter, is given to the weaknesses of her sex—the curiosity, the open asking of questions that are better left unasked, a certain pride in her person, and a failure to follow the higher order of discipline. The Bene Gesserit require a deeper pattern of obedience than she can muster.
For the Princess Irulan, my father’s daughter, is given to the weaknesses of her sex—the curiosity, the open asking of questions that are better left unasked, a certain pride in her person, and a failure to follow the higher order of discipline. The Bene Gesserit require a deeper pattern of obedience than she can muster.
I mean, whose perspective is this in the story? Writing about something in fiction does not automatically mean endorsement for the viewpoint. It could be he was sexist, but quoting a passage from a fiction story that reads like character POV is not evidence on its own.
I’m waiting for the Dune remake with a Harkonen-Fremen two state solution
It’s almost like this was going on back when the books were written.
time is a flat circle
Can a circle not be flat?
A circle is strictly defined as living on a flat 2D plane in Euclidean geometry. But in spherical geometry, you can draw a perfectly valid circle on the surface of a globe, and the circle isn’t technically flat since the surface itself is curved in 3D space.
Yeah I was gonna say I read this shit in the 90s right around Gulf War 1 and it’s funny seeing people just now pick up on this.
That is literally what the books are about.
I’m pretty sure the author of Dune, frank herbert, has explicitly stated that the fremen are based on the PLO and some other Arab liberation groups, maybe the Iranian revolution idk I’m sure the quotes are easy to look up
Haven’t found such in a brief search. I did find this so far, which was interesting:
http://www.sinanvural.com/seksek/inien/tvd/tvd2.htm
FH: Yes. You see, Western man has assumed that if you have…that all you need for any problem is enough force, power, and that there is no problem which won’t submit to this approach, even the problem of our own ignorance.
WM: (Laughter)
FH: Which, you see, throws it out the window right there because it is an asinine assumption, and it is the basic fallacy of Western man’s approach to living. Now, I’m not saying that we immediately drop this and adopt a vendetta…
WM: Although that might not be a bad idea.
FH: No, we need what I would call a science of wisdom.Talking about the Bene Gesserit:
FH: They want power in a specific way. You know, I’ve always been amazed by the statement or by the label of psychological warfare. There can be no such thing as psychological warfare…if you develop a psychological weapon sufficiently that it is destructive to any potential enemy, it will destroy you with the enemy…it’s a two-edged sword without a handle, and if you grab it hard enough to wield it, you’re going to…
WM: It’s self destructive.
FH: Yes.Makes me think of the western leaders who appear to be at the point of believing their own lies.
Next, they’ll be saying Paul Atreides was gay.
I havent read the books. So with no knowledge, is he?
Too many times, and only the worst parts, unless extremely privileged by some stroke of birth lottery. Often I’m able to laugh about it; others I must laugh, to keep from crying. 🎭
