Anti-civ on its own is simply the critique of civilisation. I find the importance lay in ones solution, I prefer post-civ whereas what you’re describing to me sounds more like an anprim approach.
God damn, being a tankie who thinks individualists doesn’t value community and relationships. Cliche understanding, ML. Go read some anarchist theory, you obviously know nothing about it. Probably think egoism is like right-libertarianism as well.
Cool, so you’ve read the basic introductory stuff. Now stop doing the tankie thing of only reading ancient theory and treating it as dogmatic, and look into the modern evolutions. Go read some zines and other publications and understand the zeitgeist. You won’t find deep understanding in 1 or 2 large tomes but in millions of competing and evolving short texts from people with different lived experiences, or form your own belief for a better world and argue for it; be another voice shouting in the chaos of growth.
Because you larp about revolution that will never come. Anarchists recognise that rather than sit on our arses pretending that one day we will all rise up in revolt and until than we should sit back and do absolutely nothing to build the new world or fight, that we can actively create mutual-aid and fight today. And guess what, if the fucking heavens part and the mass revolution starts, we can still join in so it’s not like anything has been lost by us being proactive.
The focus on the individual is in relation to individual actions and ethics. A small group or cell is formidable and very real threat to governments, revolutionary book clubs are not.
We likewise don’t want to throw any individual into the grinder of the system because they didn’t ‘fit in’ as we’ve seen places like the USSR, China, and yes even Cuba (up until recently) do to it’s LGBT peoples and other innocent people. Ethics and morals are up to us to judge, not a state or society as a whole.
That’s what individualism is, it does not mean we hate working together or hate community. That’s tankie propaganda.
Yes, I do a lot in my local community and aid-groups.
Ethics and morals are up to us to judge, not a state or society as a whole.
I would prefer society decides things like who gets a medical license and how to enforce age of consent laws. I like when society enforces those things.
Also every time I see people talking this kind of post-left nihilism stuff it just sounds like they want to be in a cult. They wanna be in a little cult that grows beans in the woods and possibly do sex crimes, and then it falls apart in three years. Then they skip town and do it again.
Just saw this at the top and got mad again about a different thing. You can have your own individual judgment on any moral or ethical issue and if it is counter to that of the state or society as a whole, that is worth looking at and could be legit. But there is a difference between judgment and the execution of consequences based on that judgement. We invented laws for a reason
yeah I have a hard time making heads or tails of post-leftist ideology to begin with. It’s always seemed less like a coherent ideology or a set of political demands and more like posturing. I mean this post itself seems to defy attempts at making sense of it, saying stuff like one should read “millions of competing and evolving short texts.” Honestly that part kind of rubs me wrong, because it says read stuff from people with different lived experiences and that’s somehow not unifying, but individualizing or something? When I read about people with different lived experiences to mine I typically relate to them if they’ve experienced stuff like menial labor or estrangement from family, or just being working class in the west. I don’t see their experiences as wholly intractable from mine or competition, instead I see millions of people in similar situations to me. When I don’t relate to another person’s experiences it’s usually because they grew up with wealthy parents or never had to work or something.
like post-leftist stuff is just bonkers and I don’t get it. My political outlook is that people with a similar connection to money/property to me have very similar political goals to mine, and whatever differences they have to me (racial, religious, cultural, ideological, etc) should not detract from our shared political goals and should instead reinforce how unified we are. That should encourage me to embrace folk who are facing a recognizable struggle to me and fight against discrimination.
Whereas I don’t really understand where post-leftism starts out at, other than perhaps they got kicked out of a book club in college for being annoying. Seriously they always bring up book clubs and how marxist theory is old.
The CIA mostly. New or later called post leftism or post modernism is published amd distributed and you can make money writing about it cause it’s in the end a diagnosis without a prescription that was useful as hell in turning a workers movement into a navel gazing intellectual institution
Fr, the hippies already did this.and it went that way every time
the natural tendency towards blindly following a perverted old blowhard into the woods to reboot civilisation.
I refuse to believe this poster is anything but ragebait by the Lemmy-Demiurge (Lemmiurge?) to keep me from reading theory or touching grass or reading about baroque architecture or maybe just taking a shit
Because this doesn’t criticise population? It criticises civilisation, which in post-left anarchist anti-civ/post-civ theory refers to “the culture of cities”, "a society defined as a complex society characterized by the practice of agriculture and settlement in cities … Compared with less complex structures, members of a civilization are organized into a diverse division of labor and an intricate social hierarchy.”
I’d love to hear how this person proposes to sustain the existence of 8 billion people without cities or agriculture
They don’t, that’s why i consider primitivism to be genocidal ideology.
it’s not something you could switch to in one lifetime, but who says we have to maintain 8 billion? if people don’t have kids as much and the population slowly declines over several shrinking generations that’s only a problem for capitalists and some religious freaks. Even without the specter of global warming we’ll hit some thermodynamic limit of food output eventually and the population would have to level off.
agriculture supported the population explosion in a self-reinforcing loop. we needed more efficient ag as population grew, which supported more people… you could play some kind of anti-4X game and wind down modern agriculture as population no longer required it. Practices besides european style farming can sustain a population too.
the lack of medicine for juvenile diabetes and stuff is my bigger problem with primitivism, not even the voluntary extinction weirdos advocate for mass death so it doesn’t make sense to me to jacket primitivists with the consequences of the whole world abandoning civilization all at once.
Note though, that the primitivists don’t even want to hear about what you said, and they usually know shit about anything, they want to just press the button.
Simple. We all become farmers again, each cultivating small plots by hand. You can substitute industrial inputs with labor in many cases. So basically reverse automation.
Sure, we’d have to give up all sorts of modern luxuries (like electronics) because we’d be de-automating, but we can live without those things … right?
/s
I mean not if you hape a pacemaker no, you couldn’t. Or an insulinpump. Or if you need an MRI, catscan, xray, modern glasses that don’t break your nose etc.
Did you forget a /s tag?
I’m being 100% sarcastic.
without agriculture
we all become farmers
Simple, by disregarding materialism and the evolution of productive forces!
Materialism? You mean the love of superfluous consumerism?
Tankies want consumerism and “productive forces” (whatever that opaque jargon means)? See, tankies are indistinguishable from capitalists!
/s
Please use tone indicators, I’m pretty sure you’re being sarcastic?
Added them in
Thank you 💚
Luxuries like…medicine, clean drinking water, a reliable food source, eating fresh food in the winter, not living like the family in The VVitch
“But humans did without those things for hundreds of thousands of years!”
It’s absurd and also kinda shitty to women to not acknowledge that the lower life expectancy came from infant mortality being super high AS WELL as women dying during childbirth all the fucking time. They may enjoy the medical steps taken to insure they most likely wont die birthing a child who doesnt have the best chance of even making it to their first birthday. Seems like a bad situation.
Ad for environmentalist reasons, humans were extinction machines before agriculture too. We took out several lines of megafauna who couldn’t stand up to the power of throwing and long distance walking. I can kinda fuck with the idea that every living thing on earth is just better off without us but I dont think there’s any level of primitivism aside from like…abandoning fire and tools that would really change that and the second someone who knows how to make a fire gets cold, theyre gonna just make a fucking fire. Voluntary extinction is also a really silly notion to think youll get enough people to agree to, most people wont even go vegan. There is never ever going to be a moment where everyone just decides not to use things that make their lives easier.
Because you larp about revolution that will never come.
The USSR, China, Cuba, Vietnam, Laos? Do none of these places exist is their mind?
Maybe they have a better idea for bringing revolution to the labour aristocrats.
Go read some zines
be another voice shouting in the chaos of growth.
I guess not.
Go read some zines
Some of the dumbest shit I’ve ever read has been in anarchist “zines”. It’s often literally shit like “how to use your own feces as fertilizer for turnips” and then what they describe doing has a 90% chance of getting cholera.
It’s kind of amazing how these sorts of people are insulated from the consequences of their own actions thanks to the same “civilisation” that they want to destroy. Like, they would not have survived till adulthood if they were already living in their anprim paradise.
I remember reading one where the half that wasnt music reviews was abkut making DIY strapons in what seemed to be an overly complicated series of steps. Just get some men’s underpants and stick a dildo thru the weiner hole. I think their instructions involved rivets
Just get some men’s underpants and stick a dildo thru the weiner hole.
i’m no expert but that doesn’t sound like it would have the rigidity somebody who wants a strapon would require
If there is a sufficiently flared base that could make up the difference, obviously the underpants need to be snug as well, briefs not boxers. Depends on the dildo youre working with, but that applies to store bought harnesses as well. It worked for the person pegging me
Trotskyite newspaper syndrome. Spreading incoherent ramblings is the ultimate form of praxis.
Is the gimmick of .world that they’re a bunch of fash losers larping as anarchists because that’s the most savory form of the left? Bro is saying some racist shit hidden under paragraphs of pseudointellectual drivel
remember they defederated from us preemptively, as a last resort.
.world is just people who wanted to make a new Reddit.
Even have piefed now which wants to make a reddit version of lemmy/federated software without actually respecting the protocol standards
the most savory form of the left
This sounds like something Lenin would drop in a particularly passive aggressive essay/
He all but did just in a few more words as was the fashion in those days.
“The philosophy of the anarchists is bourgeois philosophy turned inside out. Their individualistic theories and their individualistic ideal are the very opposite of socialism.”
“Bolshevism took shape, developed and became steeled in the long years of struggle against petty-bourgeois revolutionism, which smacks of anarchism.”
“Anarchism was not infrequently a kind of penalty for the opportunist sins of the working-class movement. The two monstrosities complemented each other.”
I suspect their german. My
-detector is going beepbeepbeep (its just a reskinned 
wired to zerogpt, if both of them go off it’s likely a german)
40% of the animosity towards the left always seems to just be this deep seated desire to return to monke.
It’s what happens when people are disillusioned with capitalism but also are stuck in the capitalist realism state of mind. They can’t imagine anything better than what we currently have, so the only solution is to just tear everything down.
Yeah, admittedly I have limited exposure but I almost never see these ideas coming from AES states. I feel like anprim kind of peaked in popularity in the early/mid-90s, not coincidentally shortly after the fall of the USSR.
egoism and other definitely real ideologies
People today make memes about Stirner’s philosophy thinking he was some ultra individualist when in reality many of his positions were basic socialism of the time (he even called himself a socialist) and the centerpoint of his theory is that the “self” does not exist (everything flows from the “creative nothing”, a concept closer to daoism than anarchism).
And though he was an anarchist in the sense that he wanted a statwless society, he lived in a time before any successful socialist revolutions, meaning his opinions on the matter are no different from Newton’s opinions on the wave/particle nature of light.
aw but I like projecting whatever ridiculous self serving garbage I like onto Stirner.
Its real if I say it is
Hey, Stirner was a real guy. Engels said he definitely met him once.
“I’m an egoist and that’s totally different than libertarianism”
I’ll be honest, it is nothing like libertatianism. Stirner was a socialist and called himself a socialist. Egoism (very bad translation of the german concept) isn’t even a political program, it’s a philosophy like materialism is a philosophy.
Cool, so you’ve read the basic introductory stuff. Now stop doing the tankie thing of only reading ancient theory and treating it as dogmatic, and look into the modern evolutions. Go read some zines and other publications and understand the zeitgeist.
They did the thing
Civilisation from a anti/post-civ has specific meaning within the context of itself and contemporary society.
Sounds to me like the meaning of “uncivilized” depends on the societies skin colorIt’s funny because modern theory texts exist, but they jumped straight to telling someone to read unedited, short-form text that can be published by anyone, with no citations or anything.
Now, nothing against 'zines; I have read some nice ones. But I consider them to be an art form, not theory. They are pure self-expression, often similar to poetry. This is not where I go to learn political theory…
It’s kind of funny seeing an anti-civ person called us outdated and needing to engage more with the benefits of modern advancements.
Zeitgeist
anyone who invokes the idealist notion of “Zeitgeist” does not deserve serious attention in a political context
Because you larp about revolution that will never come. Anarchists recognise that rather than sit on our arses pretending that one day we will all rise up in revolt and until than we should sit back and do absolutely nothing to build the new world or fight, that we can actively create mutual-aid and fight today. And guess what, if the fucking heavens part and the mass revolution starts, we can still join in so it’s not like anything has been lost by us being proactive.
The focus on the individual is in relation to individual actions and ethics. A small group or cell is formidable and very real threat to governments, revolutionary book clubs are not.
What if I told you that my revolutionary book club was a small cell and the way that we are working towards revolution is participating in mutual aid networks and fighting today?
Sectarian ass
If a small group or cell was formidable and a real threat to governments, shouldn’t there be anything to show from it after over a century of people trying that? I feel like these small cells are either as dangerous as a church food drive cause they’re just doing community service at the end of the day or they end up in smaller more literal cells cause they end up in prison. Mutual aide isnt gonna collapse the government, half the time you’re doing their job for them by feeding and sheltering people.
So they really just made a comm specifically to insult those they deem unworthy? And for the ability to ban those that question why they keep attacking people?
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