- cross-posted to:
- latestagecapitalism@lemmy.world
- cross-posted to:
- latestagecapitalism@lemmy.world
cross-posted from: https://lemmy.world/post/44669256
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Their entire message for over a decade now has come down to “We’re not as bad as Trump, vote for us!” They’re still bad, and no amount of neo-liberal apologia will get me voting for a neo-liberal again especially after this past election. After all the comments that they just need to reach across the aisle harder. Of Biden saying we need Republicans as well as Democrats in a speech.
I get 2-3 text messages a week from some Democrat and they never talk policy. They never talk about anything but “IF YOU DONATE 5 DOLLARS OUR CORPORATE SPONSORS WILL MATCH IT 300% AND WE WILL FINALLY TAKE DOWN TRUMP” and I wanna murder whoever sent it.
If you hate against Dems, even if it’s the same amount as GOP, and you dont topple the regime and fix the democracy first, you will just help the GOP.
Let’s be real: US Americans won’t actually burn those parties, while the fascists will vote GOP, no matter what you say. So you just make the GOP stronger, talking like that, in the current situation. This talk only works in proper democracies, where third parties can rise and form a coalition with yet bigger parties, before the government becomes full fascist. I don’t see this potential in the US.
Thank you for the example of Dems demanding your vote without offering anything in return. If you don’t like how they don’t represent you, the choices they offer are voting for them anyway or overthrowing the government.
The fact that you think they offer you nothing is disingenuous at best and boldly lying at worst. Like, I get that these two options both suck. They do. But, I’m going to pick the lesser evil every single time, time after time, because if I don’t, more people WILL DIE. That is provably true. Trump and his regime have caused the deaths of hundreds of thousands around the world that simply would not have happened under Kamala. And that’s not including the millions that died from his last term from the pandemic, where the response team was fired and he bungled the shit out of that.
But, let’s think about your overthrow solution: How many people WILL DIE from attempting to overthrow the government? Like, forget that overthrowing the government leaves a power vacuum and that you don’t have a solid coalition to keep things going, and we’ll just assume that things will somehow run smoothly… Millions will die in a direct fight. There is simply not enough support for dissolving the government. Do you think people that vote for the Democrats are also just going to willy-nilly join your army? Are you going to get everyone to general strike tomorrow? What’s the plan? Will the army stand down? Will police not crack down? The Pinkertons still exist, you know.
This revolution you propose is going to take YEARS of prep work. You need to have a functioning system of aid and support before you can do something that ambitious, especially if you want it to be relatively bloodless. And in the meantime, we need as many people alive and a part of that as possible.
So, even if your plan is to overthrow the government, removing the people who will do real and lasting harm to your allies in that fight and replacing them with people who at the very least do less harm IS A PRETTY GOOD PLAN. I would rather walk an unwilling government to a better position than hope the killing of it will give us an even better position, but I think that even if you disagree, you have to see that you can vote for harm reduction AND plan for a revolution. It’s not fucking either or.
Harm reduction, in this case, is the smartest move.
If you think otherwise, you probably have a mental illness.
voting isn’t harm reduction
Harm reduction is typified by an actual reduction in harm. I think the illness you’re looking for is Stockholm Syndrome
In what world do you exist that kamala (or even fucking biden) invades iran and also murders US citizens via ICE in Minneapolis?
Please fucking tell me.
What do you mean? Are there no mirrors in your custom dead tree box of squawking pictures?
I’m serious. Just because I dress like Ledger sometimes doesn’t mean I’m not working to solve this delirious paradox you front page. Yes, I mean that as my why if you bother to ask my question.
Nothing you stipulate hasn’t not been done since before you were born. Notice that I didn’t bother to even ask your age.
Yeah, no shit.
And trump made it worse. You literally do not understand that portion of reality, you stupid fuck.
You live such a privileged life that you can not process your own space in this world and want others to suffer for no god damn reason.
You insist it must happen.
look at you, someone who isn’t currently being harmed bragging about it
I agree with 100%
We need to organize and overthrow our governing body. We also need to reject apathetics (they haven’t got a real word for this, surprisingly) who preach disengagement but don’t fucking do anything but complain. Be the change you want to see in the world, quit bitching and doing nothing.
If you hate against Dems, even if it’s the same amount as GOP, and you dont topple the regime and fix the democracy first, you will just help the GOP.
Translation to plain English: successfully overthrow the entire system or meekly accept everything the lesser evil offers you without complaints, no matter how evil.
Let’s be real
Yes, let’s.
Your pretending that all criticism of the shortcomings of Dems amounts to support for the fascists is the same thing as fascists do when semi-fascists who ACTUALLY support the fascists dare mildly question Dear Leader.
So you just make the GOP stronger, talking like that, in the current situation.
On the contrary: you’re making the GOP stronger by enabling the fecklessness of their so-called opposition.
I don’t see this potential in the US.
Of course you wouldn’t, being an unwitting part of the problem yourself.
Stifling all dissent in a misguided attempt at not making an unresponsive party look bad makes that party look WORSE and thus LESS likely to attract the votes it needs in order to win elections.
Americans falling for the same old scam of a fake democracy over and over and over again. 2 heads, 1 monster.
No, there’s more heads than you bother to count.
You’re pointing at the stage and ignoring the strings of not-paper in your hand.
It doesn’t even bother to note you that those strings are zapping all bothersome you feel from being so obnoxious from having to count them and make sure no one stole your strings.
You thought the strings brought you dinner.
That dinner just poisoned your whole decaying concept of having a concept of perception to begin with.
Overthrow the government, or vote for the lesser evil. Yes. Those are the options. The lesser evil here is pushing for as many progressives in primaries and then voting dem. Overthrow includes a massive non-ending strike with coordinated goals. But even that seems impossible. So vote accordingly. What else is there to do?
I’ve never heard of a government being overthrown by a strike. I’m not sure, but most successful attempts stormed government buildings, arrested and executed the leaders or forced them to flee into exile.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_coups_and_coup_attempts_by_country I only found 1964 The October Revolution in Sudan and one that stopped a coup in Berlin.
Not overthrown per se, but dramatically change directions maybe. Especially for a government beholden to the billionaires if they actually start to lose money, power.
they have enough money to sit this out tho.
and it won’t be lasting fix, because the old and rotten power structures will still be in place. (like trump reverted things his predecessors did. as soon as he was back in power, for example.)
Don’t get me wrong, pitchforks and guillotines would be better. But surprisingly, the billionaires can’t stand losing money even though obviously it doesn’t really affect them.
yeah, just stay safe and don’t get caught up in just annoying them until it’s actually showtime.
Conspiracy theory nonsense that only helps fascism succeed.
The Labour Party here in the UK tried the strategy of “vote for us or get Reform”. Their popularity has completely collapsed and the two party system is in the most peril it has been in the modern era. They have nothing to offer, only negative messaging. The Green party have surged because they’re offering actual policies and hope.
The US and UK political systems aren’t identical of course, but there’s a lesson to be learned about trying to coerce your traditional voter base into voting for you because “the badder guys might win”.
Nothing convinces me that the Democrats are interested in winning, only interested in maintaining the positions they are paid to maintain. They take their base for granted, and its long past time the bought and paid for individuals were replaced.
Study the history of fascism and you will learn that the only way fascists are prevented from seizing total control of a country is when the center left, the far left, and everyone in between sets aside their differences to present a united resistance. Fascism is an existential threat to everyone who isn’t a fascist.
when the center left, the far left, and everyone in between sets aside their differences to present a united resistance.
So you do understand that we need a center left party that will put aside their differences and vote together with the left? Because right now, a lot of European and North American countries don’t have that, they have a center right party that is willing to put aside their differences with the far right to vote against the left. This isn’t a problem with left unity.
I’m not pointing fingers at just the far left. Everyone needs to understand that there is no threat bigger than fascism. Anyone who believes in a government by and for the people needs to unify against it, from the far left to the center right.
That might mean allying temporarily with people who think that what is happening in Iran or Gaza is okay. Fascism is a worse threat and will cause more suffering and death.
people who think that what is happening in Iran or Gaza is okay.
Those are the very people who will not vote together with the left. They are the ones voting with the Fascists.
Most, but not all. There are more than a few independents and “Never Trumper” Republicans who think this way.
I don’t disagree but the problem is the current crop of centre/centre-left politicians and parties are actively pandering to fascists and the far-right with their actions and rhetoric, rather than challenging them. They have allowed them to take control of the narrative on all sorts of issues, immigration being one of the major examples. Then they’ve tried to emulate their policies.
Those kinds of justifications are exactly what splits up the resistance. If someone is antifascist, they are an ally. Full stop.
Someone is unfamiliar with or in denial about the Ratchet Effect 🙄
I think they’re just lost.
Someone doesn’t know the difference between ratchet effect and controlled opposition.
Someone doesn’t know that people can be more than one thing simultaneously.
People can be ratchet effect?
Apparently
