You can’t expect political alignment of countries to last forever. Why is it assumed the US will stand with Europe in perpetuity?
While the US seems to be the ire of political cartoons at the moment, the way it looks to me is that the world powers are starting to align against the EU. I wonder why that is.
Because they are the leaders in human rights right now, mayhaps?
They hate us cuz they ain’t us, is that it?
It kinda sucks where we are at a stage where all the major powers are turning fascist and authoritarian. I mean whether the Chinese literally take over or not, it just… Sucks right now.
“Can’t, pants are full”
The other joke here is that Trump being a fat fuck weighs the same as the other 3
Yeah, but none of them aren’t fat.
deleted by creator
Putin doesn’t seem fat, just stocky, like Russian men generally. None of them are anywhere close to as obese as Trump.
I don’t trust a single image of Putin. They’re all staged publicity shoots.
like Russian men generally
Wat
*grossly obese
Is it shameful to be fat or something?
Being fat? No.
Being a fat fuck? Yes.
What’s the issue with being a “fat fuck”?
the fuck part
Then why include the adjective? Why is Trump weighing as much as the other three a joke?
Did you come to Lemmy just to white knight fat people in every topic you can find?
OK, tubby
Time to eat a salad instead of chicken nuggets apparently
It’s a heavy (pun?) bias on the “being a fuck” part. The fat part is simply observational
It becomes hurtful toward fat people when made part of the insult. It’s played like “dumb fuck” or “gay fuck”, putting an adjective in front of an insult makes that adjective part of the insult.
Image Description
Tumblr post by fluoresensitive: Small penises aren’t bad, balding isn’t bad, being short isn’t bad, being fat isn’t bad. Physical traits are not signs of morality, and the sooner people stop mocking people for their bodies (yes, even when they’re bad) the better.
User uxji responds with a drawing of a stick-person labeled “You” holding a gun labeled in red “Bodyshaming” firing to the right at a stick-person labeled “Guy u don’t like but will not care” who is deflecting the shot to the left which hits a third stick-person labeled “Person you care about with the same trait who now knows you think they’re ugly”
User cretaceousundead responds: Like another tumblr post said “when you make fun of a bad person for their appearance, somewhere there’s a good person with a similar appearance who hears you and feels terrible”
if that person relates themselves to dictators’ bodies, then they probably deserve that shame, no?
I get what this picture is saying, but I’d like to point out this is an issue that was never a problem outside of celebrity before the turn of the millennium. I say if used in defence with private issues, use whatever works if the collateral damage is only imagined people, just don’t make hating a part of your identity.
👆👆👆👆
I mean, I’ll conclude with “sure I get your point and I agree to a point”.
But at the same time I fully understand that I’ll stick to my; I don’t mind people being fat or stupid or an ass, my issue will reside in when people know they have this objectively bad thing about themselves and refuse to do anything to fix it.
If you’re overweight and just accept that you’re overweight and do nothing, that’s not a good thing.
If you’re overweight and are working on it, good on you partner.
I will always judge the first group, because everyone should have the self realization to try to be a better person. I say this with full observation of the irony.
my issue will reside in when people know they have this objectively bad thing about themselves and refuse to do anything to fix it.
why is this an issue for you? Why do you care? Why is it an “objectively bad thing” what people do with their bodies? Would you call someone a “smoking fuck” or a “tattooed fuck” or whatever? What’s it to you? Also you don’t know what a fat person “working on themselves” looks like. For instance psychological trauma can cause someone to become fat and that person might be unable to get to a societally acceptable weight until that trauma is resolved. Which might be impossible due to other factors.
There are so many facets to this that you cannot possibly know or comprehend unless you have very close fat friends or are fat yourself.
Not to mention that your judgemental attitude makes it harder for someone to lose weight. One of the reasons fat people don’t like to jog or got to a gym or really be in public at all sometimes are the judgemental looks and attitude they get even when they do what everyone expects of them: losing weight.
Also there just are different body-types, and not just the one that everyone expects. I don’t know if you have spent any time around babies but they look all completely different in terms of how fat they are and it isn’t due to diet, or lack of exercise, they were literally born that way. Why should this be different for adults??
I will always judge the first group, because everyone should have the self realization to try to be a better person.
A thin person is not “a better person” because they’re thin fuck off with that.
Just let people be who they are and don’t expect them to become acceptable to you. That’s a really shitty thing to do to others.
Yes
No it actually isn’t. Every body is valid.
Shame can be valid.
Shaming someone for how they look isn’t.
Ok grandma. Sorry
Rude and not a woman
For the most part sure.
It never is, not just “for the most part”
Adolf Hitler and the Nazi regime looked to the United States racial policies and legal models as inspiration, particularly in the crafting of the Nuremberg Laws. Hitler himself praised the United States in his manifesto Mein Kampf for its racist immigration and nationality policies, and Nazi lawyers explicitly referenced American race law as a precedent for their own legislation. So, yeah, historically the United States is different from what Hollywood shows (the shock, I know).
For context:
Not to be that guy but that’s literally closing in on almost 100 years ago.
The US might still have race issues but the US is definitely the most racially conscious country you could probably live in at the same time. Most countries don’t have such a variety of cultures mixed together.
Just kind of an odd thing for you to throw out in the context of this picture. What about this post makes you think “ah yes, racism!”
Just look at Japan. It’s been 100 years since they joined the wrong side of WWII, in part for racist reasons. Today, as a culture and generally speaking, not only are they horribly racist, they don’t even acknowledge it as a problem. Even among Asians, they consider themselves the most superior Asian (read: whitest) race. Look at how they treat Koreans or Chinese throughout history.
China continues to try to purge Uyghurs. In fact, anti-indigenous racism seems to be an unfortunately global concept. Rwanda committed one of the worst genocides in history, purging a culture so similar to their own that it defies reason, and could only happen through decades of re-enforcement. A majority of European countries are so culturally isolated from each other than they barely understand what racism is.
A country that understands where the racism exists can take the first steps to fight against it. Most countries aren’t even that far.
And yet, countries like the US and Canada are huge melting pots that understand what racism is, and has fought for centuries to push it back. Has the US solved racism? Fuck no! But, the topic is constantly in the foreground, always talked about, and one of the primary drivers of politics.
Rwanda committed one of the worst genocides in history, purging a culture so similar to their own that it defies reason, and could only happen through decades of re-enforcement
Read: Belgians, for anyone who doesn’t know. The Belgians encouraged the minority Tutsi’s to believe they were god’s gift to Rwanda, and the majority Hutus to believe they were peasant farmers and enforced this via identity cards stating so. Then the Belgian’s relinquished control, but not before telling the Hutus to actively seek revenge to balance things. You couldn’t make this up.
They were literally the same people, separated only by caste.
the most racially conscious country
Just like the politicians who always think about protecting the minors?
If you think pedophilia is strictly an American thing you’re fooling yourself.
But politicians don’t decide our culture. So not sure what you’re on about trying to mental gymnastics into some random topic. The point still stands find another culture with more respect and understanding of each other’s cultures.
It’s really easy to point out the conflicts but millions of us live everyday together completely fine falling in love with each other’s food, music, religion, family.
If you think the US is “racially conscious” then you’ve just fallen for the propaganda
The US is incredibly racist.
I have to travel to the US regularly.
I’d rather not
It’s an awful place, and at its very core it’s built on discrimination, exploitation, hate, theft, cruelty, genocide, bigotry and stupidity
But, these things are are somehow celebrated when they should be a source of shame
I do extended stay travel internationally for work. I am frequently in other countries and there is no shortage of their racism and discrimination.
I agree
I’ve lived in several countries, and I travel a bit
There’s racism all over the world, but it’s the US where it stands out in such stark contrast to the myth of the country
The indigenous population were slaughtered, the country was stolen, it was built with slavery, and yet, there’s such pride in the fairytale that it was created for people to be free, and that everyone is equal
That stupid fucker Deft, or whatever his name is, is pissy because deep down he knows that he benefits from a system that places a white guy above others and he knows that in a truly level playing field he’d be found wanting
Wait… What? Americans aren’t aware of how the country was founded? Or slavery’s part in it’s past?
Like Greeks and Italians don’t deny theirs? How about Spain, France, Portugal? Mayans, Incans, Aztec? French Canadians?
Let’s talk about the Han Chinese, Taiwan. Japan and Korea…
Man no one is sorry and they all downplay their past. Cut the shit
Ludicrous perspective.
I literally live here. In an area that is seeing some of the most diversity and a ton of immigrants, I work in a kitchen and have worked with people from all over the world from Thailand to Senegal, Venezuela to Iran, India to Australia.
I’ve had this conversation of American and racism for literally decades in my life of working with these people both having to inform them of inappropriate actions and just general discussions. There are communities from all over the world here.
A huge reason people think the US is racist is because they watch the media and think our constant conversation of race suggests it’s a huge fucking issue. Most countries do not have the diversity our government has shown and the rise in racism in the US is because of this bullshit fear of “rEpLaCemEnt thEoRy” from the growing diversity.
Every country has racism, most don’t talk about it especially at a level where their government has constant calls to face the music about it.
Which city?
I have lived in the big cities of countries that are fundamentally racist all over the world
Of course there are major centres with great diversity, but outside of those places, 'Murica is a racist dump, and even within the more diverse and tolerant parts of that awful country, it’s still racist as fuck
I’m going to leap to the conclusion that you’re white.
I still love your user name. I too am a huge fan.
the people might be racist, but there aren’t that many racist laws still on the books
The laws don’t have to be racist
The enforcers certainly are
Anyway, the guy I was arguing with is a dickhead, and a stupid one at that
Why didn’t you answer where you’re from then?
Because you’re lying.
You’ve definitely never been to this country.
I couldn’t believe what an absolute dweeb comment this was so I had to check your post history 90% is just pissing and raging about America. You better be paid to spread this divisiveness cause otherwise you’re one pathetic bastard.
And yes I am white. What country are you from?
No the U.S. is still very much racist. Are you only thinking about like Seattle or something? And conveniently forgetting about not just the rural south, but rural north as well?? Michigan, especially the U.P., Wisconsin, and Indiana are pretty racist.
The major cities in each state are more liberal of course, but the rural folk usually aren’t. How can Wisconsin be a swing state when only like 4 counties vote Democrat lol. Yeah yeah “land doesn’t vote” but that’s their “territory”. Your car breaks down anywhere you have to call them. If anything happens you’re at their mercy.
I giggled at how is response was denial
The fact that I challenged his views meant that he had to create a scenario where I was lying about spending time in the US
I have been over there six times in the last eighteen months alone. When I’m there I’m living like a local, not staying in hotels in the big cities
This guy is white, but seems to be the type of white guy who refuses to acknowledge that he enjoys inherent privilege merely because he is a white male
So you’re saying the rural part where the smaller populations reside is racist. While the majority of the population isn’t racist?
Yeah. That’s what I’m saying too.
I’ve lived on both coasts and in the south in one of the most “racist” states.
It’s bullshit. The super hick South people you’re thinking of genuinely hate the KKK and white supremacists. They’re defensive about what they see as their culture – owning guns, having their stupid flag.
The biggest racist thing in America is racial profiling which isn’t a white-only thing. It’s a cultural thing. And if you think other countries don’t racially profile it’s probably because they don’t have the population diversity to do so.
'Murica was founded in genocide, an ideal that white people are inherently superior, and dishonesty
Nothing changed
It‘s funny because historically America has always been the good guy, and Trump is the only anomaly. This is clear by the fact that the US is currently not involved in any proxy or trade war with any of the evil dictators on the other side.
Very sharp analysis by the cartoonist, they really must have a strong grip on reality.
They have supported Israel for a long time though. I guess it had to wait for the genocide to become more blatant for them not to be seen as the good guys?
Well if Genocide happens under a Dem it’s different /s
Nope, dem here. Fuck Biden for doing nothing.
Thankfully I don’t see it as much on here as much as it used to be around the peak of the election, where I’d see (self proclaimed) liberals ignoring the reality and instead argue that his hands were tied or that he’s totally working tirelessly for a ceasefire or that it was irrelevant to winning the race. I still see establishment Dems holding this view, especially during the controversy of the DNC refusing to release the autopsy
It‘s funny because historically America has always been the good guy, and Trump is the only anomaly.
That is not what the cartoon implies though. You are just forcing your own tankie strawmen on it. It is purely about a geopolitical context, where the US indeed traditionally has been the opponent of the other regimes, but no longer are.
Geopolitical opponents says nothing about values or “good guys”, because believe it or not, you can actually oppose both sides in a geopolitical conflict. I know that is a difficult concept for your zero sum “all enemies of the US are my friends” tankie mindset.
where the US indeed traditionally has been the opponent of the other regimes
Has it? Relations between the US and China started thawing all the way back with Nixon’s famous visit, and with the reforms and investment and them becoming a major trading partner, those conflicts became a thing of the past. I grew up in the 90’s and the idea of China being an enemy was a pretty foreign concept back then. After 9/11, the focus was entirely on the Middle East, and I don’t recall anybody talking about, “We shouldn’t invade Iraq because we should be focusing on confronting China instead” or anything like that.
In 2011, US opinions of China were 51% favorable vs 36% unfavorable. In 2017, it was 44% to 47%. Then, relationships suddenly deteriorated afterward.
I attribute that sudden deterioration to two factors. First, with the winding down of the wars in the Middle East, it was necessary for the ruling class to drum up tensions elsewhere in order to justify pouring immense amounts of money into the military industrial complex. Second, with the abject failures in handling the pandemic, it was necessary for the ruling class to point fingers abroad to distract from its own failings. And what better place to point fingers than a country which handled it relatively well? “They only handled it better because they knew it was coming, and it was a biological weapon primarily released on their enemies.” Anyone criticizing US policy, especially if they compare it to China, can now be dismissed as a tankie and traitor, based on a conspiracy theory promoted by propaganda.
So what time period exactly are you talking about when you say, “traditionally?” 2019-2024, Biden’s one presidential term? Or the 1950s-1980s? Because there’s a pretty significant, nearly 40 year gap in that “tradition.”
but no longer are.
I also hard disagree on that point but this comment is long enough already.
There is no evidence that Trump is substantially less confrontative with Russia and China than any other president in the last 30 years (my comment directly references this), so in that sense he is “balancing” geopolitics by keeping the world on the constant brink of WW3 “as any good president should”.
My problem with this “comic” is two fold. One, it implies that Trump is an anomaly in an otherwise continuous moral America. Two, it presents a world that is in a constant state of conflict between imperialists powers (What did a tankie just call Russia imperialist?!?) as a desirable state.
But yes, it’s me that is talking to straw men.
There is no evidence that Trump is substantially less confrontative with Russia and China than any other president in the last 30 years
You been under a rock or something?
yes
Apparently.
Guess what, that bunch on the left side fits together quite well, but you aren’t allowed to say that on lemmy.ml, are you?
Indeed I would be rightfully sent to the gulag.
You’re allowed to talk bullshit, but we’re going to make fun of you for being wrong about it.
That’s the thing. Doesn’t matter how, when bringing up any of the nasty things any of those up there, unless it is the US, have done or are in the midst of doing right now, the response is pretty much like on my comment up there. Doesn’t matter how well supported the comment is or not.
That’s the thing. The comments are never well supported. China hasn’t dropped a bomb in 50 years and in the same time has lifted 800,000,000 people out of poverty. To put them in the same ballgame doesn’t make sense because they’re not even playing the same sport lol.
I dont remember those other guys being friends with epstein
Putin is literally like top tier sex trafficker? Lol
Is your source of this information the CIA or your buttcrack?
Anything negative about Putin must stem from the CIA? Really? You should learn more about that guy’s dealings. Not my job to educate you on some pretty easy to understand information.
If this is so easy, you can give me 1 (one) source on this that isn’t the CIA, right?
Alexander Litvinenko
I ask you for a source that isnt CIA and you give MI6 as an answer. Funny and all but you failed the task
Nothing will ever be enough for you lmfao. Dude was literally Russian then defected. Even if Putin himself admitted to it on TV you’d claim it was a body double and he’s innocent. What a laugh you are.
Melania = Putin’s proxy
I don’t think that China and USA are big friends. Xi Jinping is the pure winner out of the whole geopolitical mess and keeps on damaging the US economy beautifully.
Putin is Putin and he made himself unpopular everywhere. He will never leave his bunkers again.
And Kimmy is just a 50 IQ potato who is happy to be talking to someone so famous such as Trump and probably always asks for a signature on a postcard.
Rich people in each of those countries are closer allies to each other than their own citizens.
Now drop a big rock on the other side and launch those fuckers into space, chickity-ciao! 🚀🌞
Are you telling me global north now works together with the global north?
Liberals just group anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their specific ideology into the same category. It’s wild how oversimplistic and childish that perspective is.
Tankies just group anyone who doesn’t subscribe to their specific ideology into the same category. It’s wild how oversimplistic and childish that perspective is.
The classic, “I know you are but what am I?” but the problem is that the comic is the thing that actually does it.
Wow. Deep.
Not as deep as the comic tho. Really insightful stuff there.
Isn’t that what all political factions do? Everyone who isn’t them is stupid, then they engage in infighting with their own.
To an extent. Maybe I’m spoiled because in Marxist circles people actually read things sometimes.
I guess I’m just amazed at how wildly wrong the comic is. The main reason any of them are on the same side in the first place is because the US can’t stop getting involved in conflicts all over the world, and Trump is absolutely not an exception to that trend. It’s utterly bizarre to look at Trump’s foreign policy, including starting a pointless trade war with China, and thinking that he needs to be more aggressive. But what’s actually happening in the real world is irrelevant to liberals, who don’t dare criticize US foreign policy for being too aggressive for fear of appearing disloyal, and so they’re only capable of criticizing it from the right.
But what’s actually happening in the real world is irrelevant to liberals, who don’t dare criticize US foreign policy for being too aggressive for fear of appearing disloyal, and so they’re only capable of criticizing it from the right.
When I hear stuff like this I literally do not understand what you’re talking about. Who are these liberals afraid to appear disloyal? Are you talking about international relations, internal government representatives or the voting bloc that might identify themselves as liberal or part of the liberal identity? Because my next question to whoever you’re going to label as the “liberals” is – what the hell are you talking about? Liberal voters are never-endingly critical of their representatives / government, politicians in liberal nations benefit from appearing to be “not the other guy” and cause disloyalty in all directions towards their opponents, international relations between liberal countries is literally the equivalent of public shaming to try and keep each other in step together. All left-leaning political factions engage in the circular firing squad, constant criticism that drags each other down, Marxists and socialists included.
It is actually insane to state there is any form of loyalty among liberals historically or today. Within a few years of America’s founding, the liberal facade shattered into political factions that have only become more and more polarized and fractured. It’s really just nonsense to say what you said. It’s also super arrogant to state marxist circles actually read things when here on lemmy the “marxists” constantly spread some of the fakest news you can find and ban each other on their instances for disloyalty or stating alternative opinions.
Trump’s foreign policies and all of his policies have nothing to do with the US agenda or historic goals.
Also this comic is taking arguably the most complex thing on this planet, international relations/history and framing it on a freakin’ seesaw, some delicate things are going to be lost in translation. That’s literally the point of political cartoons, to take super hard to define topics and basically make them into caricatures for people to laugh at and get a small grasp of the bigger picture.
Liberals are critical of specific politicians, and of their own governments, but only to and extent, and that critism is often framed in such a was as to reaffirm the thing they’re criticizing. The worst criticism a liberal is able to manage is that a leader (and it’s generally one specific person rather than any systemic analysis) is no better than foreigners, as presented in this comic. In doing so, they are in fact reaffirming their fundamental loyalty to the state even as they criticize it, because they cannot denounce the state without denouncing the state’s rivals and reaffirming their willingness to fight on the side of their own state against them.
This is what’s happening in the comic. The author is practically begging to rally behind Trump against the others, and criticizes him, not for all the fucked up things he’s doing, starting wars, sending masked thugs to raid workplaces, etc, but only for not being aggressive enough against the “real” villains of the world.
Liberals can’t help but try to outflank the right from the right. That’s why, for example, the Dems shifted hard-right on immigration and tried to say, “we’re the ones who will actually build the wall, Trump’s all talk.” It’s also why you often seen bizarre claims accusing Trump of being a communist. But it’s arguably worst when it comes to foreign policy, when Trump is bizarrely accused of being “too soft.” As if an “insufficiently” aggressive US foreign policy would be my problem somehow!
It is actually insane to state there is any form of loyalty among liberals historically or today.
I’m glad you brought up history, because it happens to contain a perfect example of what I’m talking about. Before WWI, the “social democrats” across Europe agreed on the necessity of opposing the coming war and uniting the people across borders against it. But then, the German SDP voted in favor of entering the war, and social democrats all across Europe fell in line behind the ruling class, ordering ordinary people to go kill and die in a pointless war for their masters. These same people were perfectly happy to denounce war and imperialism in the abstract, they would even criticize their own governments somewhat, but when push came to shove, they all fell in line (with Russia being the only exception).
It’s all the same shit today. Liberal criticism is just brattiness. It’s all keyfabe, it’s stepping out of line playfully, with the tacit understanding they are still loyal to the state and its leaders, that they will only oppose the state’s actions on principle, not even presenting true rhetorical opposition, much less taking any sort of action.
Trump’s foreign policies and all of his policies have nothing to do with the US agenda or historic goals.
How do you mean? Trump has taken aggressive stances against all three of the leaders depicted in the comic. The proxy war in Ukraine continues, a pointless trade war was started with China, and the largest military exercise in the world still takes place every year on the Korean DMZ, right on schedule.
Of course, we need to be clear what we’re talking about with “US agenda or historic goals.” Ordinary Americans have virtually no input on any foreign policy decision, not has US foreign policy ever been about serving the interests of ordinary Americans. The ruling class wishes to expand the power and influence of the empire in order to seize more wealth and resources for themselves, which is why they keep starting conflicts in every corner of the globe.
If Trump were taking a more peaceful and amicable approach to foreign policy, which he absolutely is not, that would be in line with the interests of ordinary Americans. Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, Vietnam, who got any benefit out of those wars but the ruling class, while our own people killed and died pointlessly on their whims?
Trump’s foreign policy is entirely in line with those goals of the ruling class. The only thing different is that he’s pursuing those goals brazenly, whereas before there was more of a pretense that it was about some higher purpose, but that pretense was never anything more than that.
get a small grasp of the bigger picture.
This isn’t “a small grasp of a bigger picture,” it’s just entirely out of line with reality in every possible way.
Man look you’re right on some parts but you’re either intentionally or unintentionally pushing almost all the responsibility onto one party while giving the others in this image a pass.
You’re applying an analysis of the United States’ structure that you’re not applying to Russia, China or North Korea. These countries all have a ruling class, capital, engage in imperialism and wield a specifically unique geopolitical power.
If we agree states are vehicles through which a ruling class pursues power, wealth and control then that has to apply to them all equally. They all have ruling elites, their own geopolitical ambitions and engage in their own means of repression or information control. Russia cracks down heavily on dissent, China engages in transnational repression and border disputes, North Korea has literally destroyed any meaningful space for political opposition or criticism of the Kim regime.
You’re portraying American actions as the product of imperial interests but repeatedly explain the actions of the other three in this image as reactions.
Look at Ukraine. You called it a “proxy war”, that doesn’t erase the fact that Russia chose to invade Ukraine. It doesn’t suddenly magically make Ukraine a puppet of the west. Western governments have a strategic interest in Ukraine you expect them to just throw up their hands in the face of a genuine invasion? Ukraine has its own interest and agency, they have their own aspirations. So why does western strategic interest erase Ukrainian agency while Russian interest in Ukraine doesn’t? Is Russia not engaging in one of the most obtuse and offensive acts of imperialism in the 21st century in their actions? They’re grinding an entire generation away into a supposedly “three day special operation” and pressganging any foreign national they can into the conflict as well. That’s a pretty disgusting thing to do.
they are in fact reaffirming their fundamental loyalty to the state even as they criticize it, because they cannot denounce the state without denouncing the state’s rivals and reaffirming their willingness to fight on the side of their own state against them.
Okay but what would genuine opposition look like to you? Abandoning ship entirely at the first sight of a disagreement or infringement? If criticizing your own government is keyfabe opposite its foreign policy is loyalty to the state and criticizing the leaders is just reaffirming the system. Then what could an individual, a liberal person, actually do that you would recognize as opposition?
I don’t understand what you think here. I don’t have to defend imperialism done by the Trump president or any president before to oppose Russian or Chinese imperialism. I don’t support the foreign policies of the United States to support Ukrainian sovereignty. I don’t believe China and North Kore are good because the United States has done terrible things. I think you’re missing that point entirely, or intentionally glossing over it all.
If you’re going to analyze power structures to define the flaws of liberals, then analyze all of it and paint the full picture. Otherwise you’re not analyzing power you’re just picking a side, the side of the other three in the image Trump has now joined. Which is what the artist is depicting.
You’re portraying American actions as the product of imperial interests but repeatedly explain the actions of the other three in this image as reactions.
Do I? Are you talking about something I said in this thread?
Look at Ukraine. You called it a “proxy war”, that doesn’t erase the fact that Russia chose to invade Ukraine. It doesn’t suddenly magically make Ukraine a puppet of the west.
Correct. I don’t consider it a Western puppet because Russia invaded it, but because of the 2013 coup.
However, that’s largely tangential to the discussion. If you take exception to calling it a proxy war, call it whatever you like. The point is that it’s still ongoing under Trump. The fact that Trump has said things about potentially being open to negotiations, or that he’s disrespected Zelensky, doesn’t change that what’s happening materially is consistent with prior policy.
Is Russia not engaging in one of the most obtuse and offensive acts of imperialism in the 21st century in their actions?
Indeed. I don’t really agree with Russia’s approach to the situation, though I confess I don’t really have a good answer to how they should have handled the developments. The only answer I tend to get is that said developments are fake news (regardless of evidence) and that acknowledging them makes me some kind of fascist.
The West backed their preferred faction and helped them overthrow the central government, Russia backed their preferred faction and helped them overthrow regional governments, yet somehow I’m supposed to see it as a black and white struggle of good vs evil.
Okay but what would genuine opposition look like to you?
Genuine opposition means recognizing that the interests of the state and the interests of the people are distinct. Instead of trying to frame every criticism in terms of “this person isn’t patriotic enough” it means framing it in terms of the actual harm being caused to ordinary people.
In the Bush years, there was lots of criticism of the wars in the Middle East. Yet even when Obama was elected, he continued them. The same happened with Trump, who in part succeeded because of his distance from the forever wars in the Middle East, but then he went out and started one. It’s clear that when a war is being criticized, it’s important to look at what, specifically, is being criticized, and what the person saying it actually wants to do differently. Otherwise, it’s no different from the rubes who think people like Tulsi Gabbard or Tucker Carlson are legitimately antiwar.
What is actually in the people’s interests is a massive reduction in military, a wholesale withdrawal from the role of imperial hegemon, and instead a refocus on addressing the many, many domestic crises that we’re facing.
However, if you advocate this, you’re bound to be accused of just subverting US interests for the benefit of foreign adversaries, or at least, of being soft on them. Nevermind the fact that China’s rise in power has come without waging war across every corner of the globe, but from investing in domestic production the same way I advocate for. Nevermind that trying to maintain this whole empire while massively overextended is going to result in a collapse that will be significantly worse than an intentional downscaling. Nevermind the soft power losses that come from people looking at the state of things domestically in the US and deciding that they absolutely want no part of it.
All I want is fucking healthcare, and to not be party to genocide, and to not have masked thugs breaking into my workplace and abducting my coworkers. I don’t know where people get this idea that we’re supposed to go around “solving” every problem in the world (with military force, for the benefit of the ruling class) like some kind of superhero. If we can’t fix our own shit, the fascists are going to win, and that will obviously be a much bigger problem for the world than the even the worst case scenario from the US not being aggressive enough.
I don’t have to defend imperialism done by the Trump president or any president before to oppose Russian or Chinese imperialism. I don’t support the foreign policies of the United States to support Ukrainian sovereignty. I don’t believe China and North Kore are good because the United States has done terrible things.
I don’t recall making any of those points. Again, are you talking about things I said in this thread?
I said that the worst criticism a liberal is able to make is to compare a leader to foreign rivals. Every criticism must be couched with a reaffirmation of opposition to the enemies of the ruling class, who are recognized as a greater evil, thereby leaving no doubt that they will never act against the ruling class. I didn’t say that everyone who opposed the West is “a good guy.”
I think you’re using the term liberal to mean too many things and also nothing at all. You’re crafting a bogeyman. The things you’ve said suggest liberal means the liberal ideology, democratic politicians, liberal voters, western governments, social democrats and really anyone who isn’t a marxist. They’re not the same thing. Genuine opposition also doesn’t mean anything, if someone criticizes their government but doesn’t go as far as you believe then suddenly their position is loyalty to a state, insufficiently anti-imperialist or basically a fake. That’s moving a goal post or a strawman or something, I dunno but it is disingenuous.
If genuine opposition means adopting your personal belief of a solution then you’re saying genuine opposition is an agreement with your politics. Someone can oppose all those things without arriving at the same conclusion as you. You can’t just decide what is a genuine opposition because it doesn’t go far enough for you.
I also think it’s pretty hypocritical the way you speak of Ukraine. The 2013/2014 events as a western backed coup is just not true. There was an enormous domestic protest of hundreds of thousands, a lot of which died during their protests because of a state crackdown lead by Yanukovych. When they kept pushing he literally fled the country TO RUSSIA where he is now hanging out with bashar al assad probably at some swanky resort because he’s never been anything but a Russian puppet. Now you can criticize Ukraine on how it used its procedures to remove Yanukovych and maybe that was questionable. You can debate the west or the EU had strategic investments in Ukraine, sure. But calling it a western led coup delegitimizes the sovereignty of Ukrainians who ultimately decide how the hell their government should and will function.
Which is extremely relevant to your argument about liberals. You’re suggesting they don’t genuinely oppose their government because their opposition doesn’t result in change of the state. But when Ukraine does, you’re inclined to interpret their actions as if it was solely a foreign power than the agency of it’s citizens.
I see this all the time with marxist, socialist, etc folk here on Lemmy. Their analysis of the United States in comparison to China or Russia is lopsided. Russia has its own ruling elite and imperial interests, as does China and North Korea. Russia invaded Ukraine like assholes because Ukraine didn’t do what it wanted. China has engaged in coercive territorial disputes with neighboring states and has been accused with really strong evidence of operating overseas citizen policing centers as part of transnational repression.
The biggest thing I want to make clear when I’m talking about liberals, I mean people broadly committed to liberal traditions of individual liberty, democratic government, civil liberties. Recognizing that liberal democracies provide citizens with substantially greater autonomy and political rights than authoritariajn states is not the same thing as being loyal to the state. These people likely realize democratic institutions and civil liberties are preferable to authoritarian alternatives like you find in Russia, China, North Korea.
Ordinary Americans have virtually no input on any foreign policy decision, not has US foreign policy ever been about serving the interests of ordinary Americans.
Democracy creates mechanisms which ordinary people can influence state policy even if those mechanisms are imperfect. At least in this country we have them and we understand why they’re failing, because wealthy individuals, many of which aren’t native to this country or even live here, have spent a lot of money encouraging a culture of Americans to not vote, not believe in democracy and allow them to continue to descend into an authoritarian state. China, Russia and North Korea don’t have that and Trump wishes the United States didn’t have that. Which is partly why Trump is depicted on that side of the seewsaw, because he wants to be on that side acting as those countries you’re heavily less critical of, act.
