• adam_y@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    And opposing those actions is not antisemitic.

    We take those two things together as truth and we are getting somewhere.

      • NewNewAccount@lemmy.world
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        1 month ago

        demands for Israels destruction and the ouster and/or murder of All of it’s Jews

        From the River To the Sea, and Hamas banners, and the Jews are the New Nazis

        These are not the same thing.

        • theangryseal@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          I wish the mods would stop removing comments and instead refute them.

          Would be more helpful and productive.

        • Rinox@feddit.it
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          30 days ago

          Tbf “from the river to the sea” and “Israel destruction” are pretty much the same thing.

          • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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            30 days ago

            You realize that this proclamation was first made by the Zionists who meant the genocide of Palestinians with it? This is strongly opposed from the Palestinians who demand freedom and rights from the River to the Sea and rightfully so.

          • menas@lemmy.wtf
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            30 days ago

            A state with equals rights on th former Mandatory Palestine territory would free “from the river to the see”. If you think that it’s imply the destruction of the state of Israel, it’s mean that for you, the very existence of the Israel State couldn’t lead to the freedom of people on that territory.

            If this only thing that matter is freedom, this exactly what is shout out.

            If you thing this dog whistle, give sources. The only one I found was zionist organizations. In a time of war, I’m not sure we could rely on its.

  • dylanmorgan@slrpnk.net
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    1 month ago

    I really wish this didn’t need to be clarified every few days. Thanks, zionists and white supremacists!

  • yesman@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    You know, it’s that same right wing government’s hasbara for the 70 years to confuse the difference between an Israeli, a Jew, and a Zionist so they could use antisemitism as a cudgel and the Shoah as a shield.

    FINE: If I’m not allowed to criticize Israel without fixing antisemitism first, then Israel can’t have any more weapons or cover in the UN until they solve race relations in the US.

    • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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      30 days ago

      Many of them are open antisemites even. Zionism and Antisemitism are allied ideologies.

        • DeLacue@lemmy.world
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          30 days ago

          It is counterintuitive but it does make sense. You see the initial plan the Nazis used to try to get rid of the Jews was to expel them from Germany. They had no problem if the Jews all grouped together and settled their own country so long as it was somewhere else. Far away from them. (And when they didn’t leave they made conditions horrible for them). That’s why antisemites love Zionism; it’s a way to get rid of the Jewish population in their country without dirtying their hands with ethnic cleansing. Which is how we get to conspiracy nutjobs who rant about Jewish space lasers setting forest fires in the US for some reason, turning around and enthusiastically supporting Israel and defence aid for Israel.

        • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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          30 days ago

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionist_antisemitism

          To put it briefly. Zionism is a ethno-nationalist ideology. One country for each ethnicity and were the dominating ethnicity gets to supress every minority. This on the one hand is what whit supremacist fascists believe too. On the other hand Israels key claim to its right to exist at the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians is that Israel would be the only safe place for Jews in the world. If Jews are persecuted and discriminated against outside of Israel this is good for Israel as they can justify their existence with it. For Antisemites historically and today it is great to allow for an out to “get rid of the Jews” by sending them to Israel. Exactly what was done by Britain.

          So they both share the same ideological core, which is ethnostates (“Blut und Boden” - blood and soil, like the Nazis called it) and operatively they profit from each other.

  • snooggums@midwest.social
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    1 month ago

    The current right wing government also doesn’t represent every citizen of Israel either, but it is ok to use ‘Israel’ as a shorthand for the actions of the current right wing government when the actions are a continuation of decades of similar colonialism and the government is in power due to how the majority of the population voted.

    So hatred against everyone in Israel is also wrong, but saying Israel is committing genocide doesn’t require saying it is the current government.

    This meme should say “The actions of Israel does not represent the will of all Jews,”

    Edit: I expect everyone who down voted also refrains from using Russia, China, or the United States and other names of countries when making criticisms for consistency. “Russia didn’t invade Ukraine, the current Putin led government did.”

    • Oisteink@feddit.nl
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      1 month ago

      It happens to be the Israel government that claims anything hamas does should be taken out on all Arabs in Gaza.

      It’s only fair to offer them the same privilege - you elect a government and they represent your country. What they do the people has to answer for.

      Should I be allowed to vote for someone that say “we should exterminate all swedes” and not stand to answer for that when they get power and start killing swedes?

        • Oisteink@feddit.nl
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          1 month ago

          doesn’t matter much as he got elected. He shouldn’t be stopped from power by vote - he should be unable to run.

          You need to take responsibility for your laws and how your society works.

          Trumps people seem to understand this and makes actual change to how the US works.

          To me it seems they are making it worse, but there’s no revolt, so I’m guessing people accept it, even if not cheering.

          • RageAgainstTheRich@lemmy.world
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            1 month ago

            I need to take responsibility for MY laws? I vote for the most left party available in my country. What do you want me to do? Walk into the presidents office and slap his ass across the room?

            A ton of people are protesting. We are doing our best. The government is not like the little sloth operated office from zootopia. They will beat the fuck out of you and turn you into swiss cheese with bullets if you revolt.

            I can’t fight a tank or an army.

            Or do you think i get a letter in the mail for every law so i can vote for that specific one or deny it?

            • Oisteink@feddit.nl
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              1 month ago

              I don’t think you do. But you have resigned because what can you do than protest?

              In time when you are pushed even further down into the shit your kids will figure it out. People always do, it just takes time to get to that level - and leave the humanity behind.

              And it sure looks like it’s going to shit really fast - with 1700-era laws for guns and forcing women to be reproduction-machines without a voice. Especially as you didn’t have that much freedom in the first place.

          • SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works
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            30 days ago

            Applying your logic to the letter, does that mean that a German Communist who lost years of his life in Auschwitz for trying to oppose the nazi regime should be punished for failing to prevent Hitler from reaching power? How does that work?

  • Sam_Bass@lemmy.world
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    1 month ago

    The jewish population in israel is in a better position to effect change than the loudest voices anywhere else

    • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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      30 days ago

      And most of them happily endorse the genocide and ethnic cleansing of Palestine. We need to oust the Israelis as the fascists they are and make it clear that they do no speak for Jews in general and their fascist ideology is in direct contradiction to the values of Judaism. I am most worried for and most impressed by the few Jews in Israel that fight this fascist regime and get attacked and in return by it, while the West proclaims to stand for the fight against antisemitism by supporting the abuse of Jews who stand up for Jewish values.

  • deegeese@sopuli.xyz
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    1 month ago

    How can I tell decent Jewish organizations from those who actively support genocide?

    • Viking_Hippie@lemmy.world
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      1 month ago

      Read what they and their representatives publish and post on official social media accounts.

      Those who support the genocide in deed are almost never shy about doing so with words too.

      Anyways, Jewish Voice For Peace are the gold standard in accurate naming and one of the best anti war crime organizations in the world, so that’s at least one right there 🙂

    • PhlubbaDubba@lemm.ee
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      1 month ago

      Legitimately, the fact that they’re an American org will usually be a fair indicator.

      The zionist movement fell flat on its face in the US during the foundation of Israel, so most pro-palestinian jewish activism will be based out of the US as well.

      This dynamic has intensified enough since that initial split that Israeli Judaism has actually taken on fundamentally different qualities from American Judaism, to the point where some scholars would consider them separate denominational groups.

      It’s also fostered enough bad blood that a frequent dismissal of Israelis when hearing of Jews who oppose the settlement project is to say “they must just be stupid Americans.”

      They legit try to do the "they aren’t authentic!" bit other old worlders and Latine folks will whip out when putting down their American cousins for not being identical to them, except with the Israelis it’s even funnier because bitch you ain’t where you came from either, that was literally the whole point of this great displacement project y’all whipped up!

      • magnetosphere@fedia.io
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        1 month ago

        I’m a little fuzzy on exactly what Zionism is, so I just don’t talk about it, rather than saying something accidentally racist, and/or making an ass of myself.

        • BoneALisa@lemm.ee
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          1 month ago

          Someone correct me if im wrong, but Zionism is Isreali radical nationalism, their primary goal is the creation of a Jewish ethno-state in current isreal and palestine.

          The Youtuber Shaun has a great video going through the history of the conflict and Zionism: https://youtu.be/3xottY-7m3k

          • bl_r@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            1 month ago

            You are mostly there. One of the most important notes is that the project is settler colonial, and it is also helpful to point out that zionism is older than Israel, and it has been around for over 100 years.

            +1 on that Shaun vid, it’s great

            • BoneALisa@lemm.ee
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              1 month ago

              Yea sorry, the creation of an ethno-state in palestine through colonialism. I did not know that its older than isreal though, good to know.

              And shauns vids are top tier lol.

          • Microw@lemm.ee
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            1 month ago

            Any kind of Israeli nationalism can be zionism, doesn’t need to be radical.

        • Nachorella@lemmy.sdf.org
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          1 month ago

          I like this approach. I wish more people would be honest about the limits of their arguments instead of just saying whatever they think will help them ‘win’.

        • sparkle@lemm.ee
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          1 month ago

          Zionism is basically the belief that Jewish people deserve to own Palestine/Jerusalem (“Zion”) and that non-Jews should be ethnically cleansed from “Zion” (the Nakba)

          • Microw@lemm.ee
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            1 month ago

            The second part of your definition definitely isnt true for all forms of Zionism. Zionism is as broad of a political ideology as liberalism, conservativism or communism is. Some zionists will agree with that, some won’t or “soften” it to “we’ll let them stay as second class citizens lol”

          • Todd Bonzalez@lemm.ee
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            30 days ago

            Zionism is essentially the belief that Ethnically Jewish people deserve their own homeland. This usually translates to “Israel has a right to exist”.

            This does not necessarily mean endorsement of ethnic cleansing. That is not the core of Zionism, it is the core of what you oppose, and you have been convinced to casually refer to those things as Zionism.

            Taking a hard-line against Zionism in this way is like saying “Catholicism is basically the belief that women should be brood mares”. Sure, Catholics are largely against Abortion, but they aren’t a monolith. You’re going to find plenty of members of the group that don’t tow the line on that.

            In this sense, you are looking at the Israeli leaders that use Zionism as a justification for what they are doing to Gaza/Palestine et al, and deciding that everyone under the Zionist umbrella must be exactly the same. The problem here is that you’re dead wrong about what Zionists actually believe and are alienating people that might otherwise be your allies, because they can’t tell if you’re arguing that Palestine should be free, or if their friends and families in Israel deserve to be displaced, oppressed, or even murdered in revenge for the Nakba.

            • sparkle@lemm.ee
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              29 days ago

              Yeah no. Jewish Israeli people can live in Palestine, with the Arabs they’re trying to displace, like Jews have for thousands of years before modern Israel existed. Israel is inherently, and has always been, an apartheid ethnostate and has no reason nor right to exist. Israeli nationalism is a bad thing and Israel’s entire purpose is Jewish supremacy. If you remove the “ethnostate” aspect of Israel, you don’t have Israel; there is no Israel without either apartheid or genocide of non-Jews.

              Israel has no right to exist. No state really has any right to exist, but Israel’s existence is especially bad. It should be dissolved. That doesn’t mean displacement of the people that live there, that means the replacement of the Israeli state.

              There are plenty of Israelis who were adults when Israel was founded, and participated in the extermination of Arabs during the colonial occupation, and cheered on the theft of their lands. They form the foundation of Israeli society, and most of the non-Arab Israeli populace still encourages the oppression and genocide of Arabs. I do not believe any individual who cheers on the genocide of the peoples their great-grandparents recently stole the lives of should have the “right” to live on the recently stolen land.

        • kaffiene@lemmy.world
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          1 month ago

          I don’t really use the term myself because I find it too vague. People shift what they mean when they use it so I stick to the actual concepts I’m discussing. The existence of a state for Jews and apartheid settler colonialism are morally polls apart.

        • Todd Bonzalez@lemm.ee
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          30 days ago

          This is a point I wish more people understood. I know more than one self-identified Zionist who is against Israel’s oppression of Palestine, and even refers to it as Genocide. They understand how Zionism motivated it, but they themselves are not in agreement with Israel even though they identify as Zionist.

          It’s like if the pro-choice movement were branded as an anti-Catholic, since Sectarian Catholic Christians are some of the most outspoken against Abortion. While there is plenty of blame that Catholicism deserves, making that your central message alienates pro-choice Catholics.

          Or how Communism and Socialism are frequently equivocated with Authoritarianism because there were a handful of far-left dictators through recent history. Make that your central message and you alienate all the leftists that don’t stand for that.

          anti-Zionism might feel properly directed, but for Jews it always leaves the question of “what part of Zionism are you against?”, Because Zionism is a more complex philosophy than “Oppress Palestinians”. Making it your central message alienates Zionist Jews that are not in favor of the violent nationalism of the Israeli government.

          That we even have to stop and remind people not to straight up blame Jewish people for what’s happening makes it clear that the messaging here is questionable. Finding a convenient label to encapsulate everything you oppose in a situation may be rhetorically convenient, but oversimplified messaging can also lead to miscommunication and overly-broad statements of blame against groups that don’t necessarily deserve it.

    • Deceptichum@sh.itjust.works
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      1 month ago

      I clarify my complaints are about Israel, the state, not Jewish people who do not live in the country.

      You cannot have Netanyahu or the IDF without Israel existing.

  • Signtist@lemm.ee
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    1 month ago

    The very belief that the decisions of the powerful few are a reflection of the opinions of the people as a whole is how we got ourselves into this mess in the first place…

  • aleph@lemm.ee
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    1 month ago

    Thousands of copies need to be airdropped over Capitol Hill by helicopter.