It’s bizarre to me that harcore vegans want to own a pet to begin with. Keeping bees for honey is bad, but separating a kitten from its mother at an early age and castrating it for your convenience and deciding how they live (restricted to an apartment or not) is totally fine?
I understand that most pets live a good life, but man, I can’t bring myself to make choices like these. I mean there are ways to circumvent it (get an older cat from an asylum for example) but it doesn’t really remove the “pet dilemma” to me.
Most people I know adopt from rescue shelters and all the vegans I know do that, often even focusing on pets that are somewhat “disadvantaged” regarding getting adopted, i.e. disabled or chronically ill animals. They go to an animal shelter not primarily with the wish of having a pet but providing a better life for an animal (because let’s face it, even the best-intentioned shelters are understaffed and underfunded).
This is a good, nuanced take that I as a vegan have struggled with believing. We don’t want pets, but animals are very much still suffering in this imperfect world.
I wouldn’t say we don’t want pets per se. Some of us do but the difference is trying to find the most ethical way of obtaining and taking care of them.
To be honest, I’ve never seen anyone take a dog from a shelter. With cats - yes, and I only know a handful of people who own a specific type of cat. But everyone I know and all people I meet have specific dog breeds or known mixes that were planned - both in the making and adoption.
That’s just bizarre, I don’t know anyone that has a purebred, their all mixes. Usually part pittie, because I live in an urban area and that’s mostly what’s at the shelters.
Well, my family’s dog when I was young was a rescue dog, no purebred (should be illegal anyway) or “targeted mix”. Tbh, no one ever knew exactly which breeds she was from, and I will probably never understand why people are so fixated on this shit.
A friend who had two breds from the same parents (different litter) said that you can predict the personality better in breds, while with unknown mixes you can get a manic dog and that they all have behavioral problems.
As you might have guessed by now, I am very much not a dog person. And I have no place to judge her statement. But I can imagine that there are a lot of dog owners who think like that.
Btw I’m in Germany, so is the friend. There is some Nazi joke in all of this that I am too lazy to make.
“Nature vs nurture” is an old debate that has not yet been concluded and data is hard to obtain. But it seems at the moment that how you training and upbringing has more impact on how an animal develops.
Also, i was more speaking ofphysical traits like a flat back for shepards or stubby noses for pugs etc. Generally, “purebred” pets are far more prone to develop detrimental traits and illnesses, i don’t see it worth the risk and more like torture than anything else.
Dog breed stereotypes are frequently used to inform people’s expectations about canine behavior, despite evidence that breed is largely uninformative in predicting individual dog behavior.
Thanks for the article. From further down the introduction:
This is despite numerous studies demonstrating that variability within a breed is greater than among breeds7,11,12. While heritability for certain behavioral traits such as human sociability and biddability have been convincingly demonstrated7,13,14, breed is largely uninformative when it comes to predicting behavior in an individual dog7.
So it looks like while breed stereotypes might not be helpful in predicting an individual dog’s behavior, they could still have an effect on the average behavior of that breed. I’ll have to look more into this, the subject is less concluded than I had thought.
Edit: It looks like this study is just self-reporting on how people feel about different breeds?
All three of the dogs in my house are rescues that would have been put down if we hadn’t adopted them. I work with The Barking Lot in San Diego, and we routinely drive up to Orange County to rescue dogs that are going to be out down. To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with these dogs, they just didn’t get adopted “in time.” There are rescue organizations all over the US, and while you will have to jump through some hoops and pay an adoption fee, that is simply because we absolutely don’t want these dogs ending up in puppy mills or fighting rings.
Imagine you wanted children and then someone would come along and castrate you because there’s a problem with overpopulation. You take away an individaul’s choice of reproduction for the greater good. And it makes sense, but the lack of consent or even understandment does not sit well with me.
Putting down pets is another thing. You make the decision whether a (sick/suffering) animal is going to die, while we are refusing to allow people to make this decision for themselves in most countries.
I absolutely see your point and I would not say you are wrong about it. But to me these are ethical questions that I just don’t wish to answer because there is not really a right answer.
Imagine you wanted children and then someone would come along and castrate you because there’s a problem with overpopulation. You take away an individaul’s choice of reproduction for the greater good. And it makes sense, but the lack of consent or even understandment does not sit well with me.
You’re anthropomorphizing animals too much. Cats don’t “want” children. Beyond a basic biological need they don’t give a shit about procreation. It’s not even a difficult question, ethically speaking. In almost every environment they exist in cats are considered invasive, reproduce like crazy, and tend to be incredibly destructive to local species. To be clear, I don’t think there is anything wrong with owning a cat, but it’s important to do so responsibly.
On the fixing side of things, this is traditionally decided throughout animal husbandry by whether or not it positively impacts the animal’s ability to do it’s job. A housecat’s job is to provide companionship and occasional mouse removal for which fixing positively impacts companionship while have no impact on the secondary role. A dairy goat obviously won’t be able to produce milk if fixed so they generally remain able to reproduce, but goats kept for their wool are fixed more based on behavior and population control needs. Horses might be fixed to prevent behaviors that affect their ability to pull/be ridden, etc. etc.
So ultimately part of the ethics debate surrounding fixing your pets ties straight into the ethics of animal husbandry to begin with. I personally struggled with this when I moved from the city into farm country and saw first hand how the care for cats flipped from “every cat is special” to “yeah they’re just like there and kinda cute plus they kill the mice so I feed them sometimes so they stick around.” And I had to grapple with how there is no consistent line for what animal is special and must be saved and what animals are just there and the circle of life is up to them. I don’t have any easy answers to give on this subject, so I generally go with whatever is socially acceptable balanced out with concern for the animal’s happiness and well-being within the context of them still filling the job(s) they are being kept to fill
In my mind its all about acting in the animals best interest. Childbirth isn’t easy on a cats body and neither is the stress they will obtain if they desire reproduction and are not able to do so. Spay and neuter are therefore in the cats (or dogs) best interest
Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely agree that we need to neuter cats and dogs. I just personally cannot bring myself to make this decision for an individual cat that I have to decide for. If I was getting a pet I would absolutely neuter it, but I prefer to just not get a pet to not have my mind wander down that road of “damn, did I just assume what my pet would want and put my values on them or did I do something responsible by interfering with their body”. Same for most decisions.
I get it man. Having to act in the best interest of someone who can’t communicate can be stressful. That’s why I’d never want to take care of a baby or adopt an animal. I would like to volunteer at a shelter, however.
When “keeping bees” you are ever only hosting them. If the conditions are not to the hive’s liking, they will find somewhere else to live. This is a significant problem in North America where honeybees are not native, as they will displace native species. But if you have a productive hive, they are happy and well treated.
Only when being transported into a hive. Other than the honey super, the queen is given full run of the hive in order to lay new brood. The physical gate is to keep larger things out.
I knew a hardcore vegan girl like a decade ago when it was rather rare to see someone to that extreme, or at least to me. She said she feeds her cat only vegan food, and i was pretty sure that that’s not a thing, but i didn’t really know. Her roommate then told me that she goes through quite a lot of cats, because they either die or run away.
Yeah, adopt don’t shop. But I’ve met many vegans who don’t want pets at all. Including myself, I find the concept of owning a pet a little strange. But that’s something everyone should decide for themself.
But that’s something everyone should decide for themself.
Honestly I’m not so sure about that. I’m actually annoyed by the lack of regulation. Why is pet breeding still a thing? Owning a pet seems like something that should be phased out (while working on getting the numbers of new born pets down).
Don’t get me wrong, I like animals, I’ve grown up with a cat who lived to 21 years and I consider him more of a brother than a pet, and I love cats, but I wouldn’t want to repeat this again. With cats you are damned if you let them outside and damned if you don’t. Dogs should just not exist in public spaces. A lot of people are afraid of dogs and every dog “doesn’t bite” before he bites one for the first time. I also don’t care if they bite or not, I don’t want an animal touching me or my stuff, period. The trees suffer, the playgrounds are surrounded by shit, and people tense up in a subway or restaurant when there’s a dog. Unless you are a farmer with a huge piece of land you just should not have a dog. (Or need an animal for disability reasons of course.)
In a sense I think it is about dogs being in an urban environment. There is just no good place for them to move from a to b. Even if you pick up the poop in the park, there are parts of it left in the grass. The few trees in a city (next to sidewalks I mean) will be peed at and a lot of trees don’t take this well. If I am on a narrow sidewalk and someone with a dog passes they can hardly keep their leashed dog at such a close distance that they wouldn’t end up striving me. And the question is also, is this the life you want for this animal? Having it on a short leash for 99% of the time?
No one would argue that keeping a horse in your city apartment is a bad idea. Yet somehow for dogs it is normalized.
Depends on a dog. Many cities now have dog parks nd you can still take them out of the city.
Dogs are social animals bred for hundreds of years to be our companions. Most will be happy to be inside on a couch with their human, rather than outside alone (obvioualy not exclusively, they need the walks and free time. And every dog may have different needs).
My understanding was always that seeking out new pets was bad, but it was also bad to get rid of one if you already had it. I’m not a vegan, though I did date a couple many years ago and am basing this on what I remember from conversations.
Shoot, I’d say keeping bees would be pro vegan. Good barter system for honey in exchange for premium hive space and care and protection. Symbiotic relationship.
No, they’re hypocrites. These are practices that vegans should not be ok with, and said actions certain don’t constitute a harmonious world view and philosophy. They should be ashamed of themselves. The real actions and ideas they should be putting forward is to not have pets, and to try to reduce invasive species impacts on local ecosystems (in which case cats are neutered to stop reproduction).
It’s bizarre to me that harcore vegans want to own a pet to begin with. Keeping bees for honey is bad, but separating a kitten from its mother at an early age and castrating it for your convenience and deciding how they live (restricted to an apartment or not) is totally fine?
I understand that most pets live a good life, but man, I can’t bring myself to make choices like these. I mean there are ways to circumvent it (get an older cat from an asylum for example) but it doesn’t really remove the “pet dilemma” to me.
Most people I know adopt from rescue shelters and all the vegans I know do that, often even focusing on pets that are somewhat “disadvantaged” regarding getting adopted, i.e. disabled or chronically ill animals. They go to an animal shelter not primarily with the wish of having a pet but providing a better life for an animal (because let’s face it, even the best-intentioned shelters are understaffed and underfunded).
This is a good, nuanced take that I as a vegan have struggled with believing. We don’t want pets, but animals are very much still suffering in this imperfect world.
I wouldn’t say we don’t want pets per se. Some of us do but the difference is trying to find the most ethical way of obtaining and taking care of them.
To be honest, I’ve never seen anyone take a dog from a shelter. With cats - yes, and I only know a handful of people who own a specific type of cat. But everyone I know and all people I meet have specific dog breeds or known mixes that were planned - both in the making and adoption.
That’s just bizarre, I don’t know anyone that has a purebred, their all mixes. Usually part pittie, because I live in an urban area and that’s mostly what’s at the shelters.
It’s probably area and/or country dependent
Well, my family’s dog when I was young was a rescue dog, no purebred (should be illegal anyway) or “targeted mix”. Tbh, no one ever knew exactly which breeds she was from, and I will probably never understand why people are so fixated on this shit.
A friend who had two breds from the same parents (different litter) said that you can predict the personality better in breds, while with unknown mixes you can get a manic dog and that they all have behavioral problems.
As you might have guessed by now, I am very much not a dog person. And I have no place to judge her statement. But I can imagine that there are a lot of dog owners who think like that.
Btw I’m in Germany, so is the friend. There is some Nazi joke in all of this that I am too lazy to make.
“Nature vs nurture” is an old debate that has not yet been concluded and data is hard to obtain. But it seems at the moment that how you training and upbringing has more impact on how an animal develops.
Also, i was more speaking ofphysical traits like a flat back for shepards or stubby noses for pugs etc. Generally, “purebred” pets are far more prone to develop detrimental traits and illnesses, i don’t see it worth the risk and more like torture than anything else.
Is this take based on anything? There are significant and specific behavioral differences between dog breeds.
Yes, it is based on this.
Thanks for the article. From further down the introduction:
So it looks like while breed stereotypes might not be helpful in predicting an individual dog’s behavior, they could still have an effect on the average behavior of that breed. I’ll have to look more into this, the subject is less concluded than I had thought.
Edit: It looks like this study is just self-reporting on how people feel about different breeds?
You do find purebred dogs up for adoption, I have a border collie that was adopted as an adult.
All three of the dogs in my house are rescues that would have been put down if we hadn’t adopted them. I work with The Barking Lot in San Diego, and we routinely drive up to Orange County to rescue dogs that are going to be out down. To be clear, there’s nothing wrong with these dogs, they just didn’t get adopted “in time.” There are rescue organizations all over the US, and while you will have to jump through some hoops and pay an adoption fee, that is simply because we absolutely don’t want these dogs ending up in puppy mills or fighting rings.
am not vegan but I’ll point out:
giving a cat a home, and fixing it so it won’t breed further rescue cats, is not a dilemma to me.
Imagine you wanted children and then someone would come along and castrate you because there’s a problem with overpopulation. You take away an individaul’s choice of reproduction for the greater good. And it makes sense, but the lack of consent or even understandment does not sit well with me.
Putting down pets is another thing. You make the decision whether a (sick/suffering) animal is going to die, while we are refusing to allow people to make this decision for themselves in most countries.
I absolutely see your point and I would not say you are wrong about it. But to me these are ethical questions that I just don’t wish to answer because there is not really a right answer.
You’re anthropomorphizing animals too much. Cats don’t “want” children. Beyond a basic biological need they don’t give a shit about procreation. It’s not even a difficult question, ethically speaking. In almost every environment they exist in cats are considered invasive, reproduce like crazy, and tend to be incredibly destructive to local species. To be clear, I don’t think there is anything wrong with owning a cat, but it’s important to do so responsibly.
Your second paragraph is an indictment on how we treat humans not how we treat our pets.
On the fixing side of things, this is traditionally decided throughout animal husbandry by whether or not it positively impacts the animal’s ability to do it’s job. A housecat’s job is to provide companionship and occasional mouse removal for which fixing positively impacts companionship while have no impact on the secondary role. A dairy goat obviously won’t be able to produce milk if fixed so they generally remain able to reproduce, but goats kept for their wool are fixed more based on behavior and population control needs. Horses might be fixed to prevent behaviors that affect their ability to pull/be ridden, etc. etc.
So ultimately part of the ethics debate surrounding fixing your pets ties straight into the ethics of animal husbandry to begin with. I personally struggled with this when I moved from the city into farm country and saw first hand how the care for cats flipped from “every cat is special” to “yeah they’re just like there and kinda cute plus they kill the mice so I feed them sometimes so they stick around.” And I had to grapple with how there is no consistent line for what animal is special and must be saved and what animals are just there and the circle of life is up to them. I don’t have any easy answers to give on this subject, so I generally go with whatever is socially acceptable balanced out with concern for the animal’s happiness and well-being within the context of them still filling the job(s) they are being kept to fill
In my mind its all about acting in the animals best interest. Childbirth isn’t easy on a cats body and neither is the stress they will obtain if they desire reproduction and are not able to do so. Spay and neuter are therefore in the cats (or dogs) best interest
Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely agree that we need to neuter cats and dogs. I just personally cannot bring myself to make this decision for an individual cat that I have to decide for. If I was getting a pet I would absolutely neuter it, but I prefer to just not get a pet to not have my mind wander down that road of “damn, did I just assume what my pet would want and put my values on them or did I do something responsible by interfering with their body”. Same for most decisions.
I get it man. Having to act in the best interest of someone who can’t communicate can be stressful. That’s why I’d never want to take care of a baby or adopt an animal. I would like to volunteer at a shelter, however.
When “keeping bees” you are ever only hosting them. If the conditions are not to the hive’s liking, they will find somewhere else to live. This is a significant problem in North America where honeybees are not native, as they will displace native species. But if you have a productive hive, they are happy and well treated.
My understanding is that the queen bee is generally restricted from leaving the hive by a physical gate. The workers won’t leave without her.
Only when being transported into a hive. Other than the honey super, the queen is given full run of the hive in order to lay new brood. The physical gate is to keep larger things out.
I knew a hardcore vegan girl like a decade ago when it was rather rare to see someone to that extreme, or at least to me. She said she feeds her cat only vegan food, and i was pretty sure that that’s not a thing, but i didn’t really know. Her roommate then told me that she goes through quite a lot of cats, because they either die or run away.
That’s actually really terrible
Yeah, adopt don’t shop. But I’ve met many vegans who don’t want pets at all. Including myself, I find the concept of owning a pet a little strange. But that’s something everyone should decide for themself.
Honestly I’m not so sure about that. I’m actually annoyed by the lack of regulation. Why is pet breeding still a thing? Owning a pet seems like something that should be phased out (while working on getting the numbers of new born pets down).
Don’t get me wrong, I like animals, I’ve grown up with a cat who lived to 21 years and I consider him more of a brother than a pet, and I love cats, but I wouldn’t want to repeat this again. With cats you are damned if you let them outside and damned if you don’t. Dogs should just not exist in public spaces. A lot of people are afraid of dogs and every dog “doesn’t bite” before he bites one for the first time. I also don’t care if they bite or not, I don’t want an animal touching me or my stuff, period. The trees suffer, the playgrounds are surrounded by shit, and people tense up in a subway or restaurant when there’s a dog. Unless you are a farmer with a huge piece of land you just should not have a dog. (Or need an animal for disability reasons of course.)
Sounds more about bad owners (not having their dog on a leash, not respecting others personal space, or not pickingnup the dog shit) than about dogs.
In a sense I think it is about dogs being in an urban environment. There is just no good place for them to move from a to b. Even if you pick up the poop in the park, there are parts of it left in the grass. The few trees in a city (next to sidewalks I mean) will be peed at and a lot of trees don’t take this well. If I am on a narrow sidewalk and someone with a dog passes they can hardly keep their leashed dog at such a close distance that they wouldn’t end up striving me. And the question is also, is this the life you want for this animal? Having it on a short leash for 99% of the time?
No one would argue that keeping a horse in your city apartment is a bad idea. Yet somehow for dogs it is normalized.
Depends on a dog. Many cities now have dog parks nd you can still take them out of the city.
Dogs are social animals bred for hundreds of years to be our companions. Most will be happy to be inside on a couch with their human, rather than outside alone (obvioualy not exclusively, they need the walks and free time. And every dog may have different needs).
I was just talking about the world we live in. If i could abolish pet animal breeding I would. :)
Cats are also invasive in some areas. Outdoor cats are the leading cause of songbird mortality.
Why would you need to separate a kitten from it’s mom? There are so many cats in shelters, usually castrated already, that need a forever home.
My understanding was always that seeking out new pets was bad, but it was also bad to get rid of one if you already had it. I’m not a vegan, though I did date a couple many years ago and am basing this on what I remember from conversations.
I agree that it seems the obvious choice for a vegan is to not own a pet cat.
I don’t know whether you’re a vegan yourself, but basically all the vegans I know agree with that.
Shoot, I’d say keeping bees would be pro vegan. Good barter system for honey in exchange for premium hive space and care and protection. Symbiotic relationship.
No, they’re hypocrites. These are practices that vegans should not be ok with, and said actions certain don’t constitute a harmonious world view and philosophy. They should be ashamed of themselves. The real actions and ideas they should be putting forward is to not have pets, and to try to reduce invasive species impacts on local ecosystems (in which case cats are neutered to stop reproduction).