You know, I know a guy that had to come out as straight.
Pretty fucking hilarious story.
Edit: decided to tell it here for ease of finding.
So, this story goes back to 1992. This was before the boom of awareness around gender and orientation, etc. That’s the key to the whole thing.
My buddy is this kinda goofy kid, never really fit in well, but ends up building a friend group in high school (including me). This group is unusually chill and inclusive for the era, and included three gay guys.
My buddy and one of the gay guys (also a buddy) fall in love. After we all graduate, they move in together, and live happily ever after. To appearances anyway.
Truth is, the guy really loves his partner. But he didn’t enjoy the sex. They try every combination they can think of, and it just doesn’t ever satisfy them both. However, the guy could orgasm from oral, and would do hand jobs, so they made it work, because love.
But, guy ends up meeting a woman at work. Ends up cheating, and the sex was fulfilling in a way sex with his partner wasn’t. He figures he’s actually bi, and once they move past the betrayal, it kinda helped.
But, the entire time, everyone not aware of the details just sees them as the perfect gay couple; and the guy was out as gay to everyone. And they really were a great couple. Finish each other’s sentences, silly in-jokes, outlasting every other relationship anyone in the friend group. It was only the sex that was bad. The guy’s partner is increasingly feeling undesired as the sex happens less and less.
Things come to a head around 2003. The partner cheated, and they decide to open the relationship. The guy starts seeing women for sex, the partner men. This works for a while, until the guy and the partner both fall in love with other people. Now, they kept all this private. It wasn’t until they broke up and started moving into their own places that anyone other than me and one other friend knew anything was wrong at all.
So, they’re apart, and people are surprised, extra so since they stayed friends. The guy, however, is fielding attempts to hook him up with other guys.
And that’s when he starts telling people he’s hetero. Which was not met with the kind of friendliness and open minded goodwill you might expect.
His parents were upset because, one, they felt they lost a son-in-law (despite the guys not having married); and two, that they had had a bumpy road to being parents of a gay son. They weren’t exactly overjoyed back when it all started. Some of the friend group were outright nasty about it, particularly one of the gay guys. His co-workers were largely unimpressed, but gossiped about it to the point that the guy quit and went elsewhere.
Hell, I was confused as all get out, and I was/am sort of the default “safe closet exit” person for my family. We had a conversation about it all, maybe three months after they split. I had known they had troubles, but the dude always said he was gay or bi, so it always seemed like things they were working on.
During that conversation, he talked about how much he loved his partner, and still did. But that it wasn’t fair to either of them to keep hurting each other by not being enough for each other, and expecting each other to keep trying anyway. He said that he’d never really liked men sexually, and had never had any sexual attraction to any other men than his now ex. He went into detail that I won’t share because he asked for me to never tell anyone, but suffice it to say that he tried really hard to be gay, and only gay.
So, some time passes, and he calls me out of the blue (which is rare because I’m known for not answering the phone, I check messages and call back, so ppl text me instead). He starts babbling joyous things about how he’s figured it all out.
He ran across the term “pan-romantic”. And it was a magic word that unlocked a lot of emotion for him, but it ended up being joyous. He is pan-romantic, but heterosexual. For him, it was proof that he wasn’t just weak, or didn’t love his partner enough, or a bad person, he just didn’t have fully matching romantic and sexual attractions. He could love anyone, under the right circumstances. It explained how he could have crushes on guys, and girls, but only ever sexually wanted women.
Seriously, he was on the phone with me for about three hours, just venting, and vacillating through emotions.
So, yeah, he found a label, an idea that finally gave him a way of thinking about himself that didn’t involve the shame and self hatred because he’s straight in almost every way except being able to love anyone. Love isn’t always enough, so he knows not to chase it with someone he won’t be sexually attracted to.
Now, I had to ask, “dude, how were you having sex with a guy if you weren’t sexually attracted to him?”
He thought that if he kept trying here and there, that maybe it would be enough. That it was his “duty” to do something, and it wasn’t so bad that he couldn’t do it at all, he’d just fantasize and get through it because he loved his partner.
But, yeah, dude had to fully come out, and he said it was just as nerve wracking as when he came out as gay back in the nineties, because “people thought I was joking, and then got mad because they thought I had betrayed gay people, or them by somehow changing. but I didn’t change, I just didn’t know.”
That’s the story
Well, are you going to tell us the story?
I honestly didn’t think anyone would be interested. If anything, I expected a blast of hate, since that’s what happened the last time I told the story.
But yeah, gimme a bit and I’ll come back. Kid’s sick, so we gotta do the doctor thing.
Apparently not.
Edited it in
That’s funny that his parents were mad about it. I can just imagine them going, “Look, I know we talked about how sexuality isn’t a choice… but can’t you just choose to like dicks? It would make the conversations with the neighbors so much easier.”
His dad actually said “but we were so nice about it!”
Edited it in to the original comment
I sort of had that happen to me. In middle school, someone started a rumor that I was gay. This was early 90s, and I was young, so it bothered me. I was new to the district, and didn’t have many friends, and being called “gay” was something bad in my mind.
But then I suddenly had a bunch of friends who were being really supportive. Some were gay, some were straight, but everyone just encouraged each other to be who they are. I learned a lot from them about acceptance and being myself. Years passed.
But none of them ever asked me if I was gay. Anyone that asked, I would say “no, I’m straight.” Apparently people thought I was in denial.
But then I asked a girl out, and she was like, “Wait, but… Aren’t you gay?” The look on her face is seared into my subconscious. It was a mixture of confusion, betrayal, and contempt. Like I had been pretending to be gay to worm my way into her friendship, all the while being a lecherous creep waiting to strike.
Also it turns out, one of my gay friends was working up the courage to ask me out. It was the talk of the lunch table, except they had been keeping it from me because they didn’t want to embarrass our friend.
So I had to go to that friend and explain that I liked them as a friend, but I was not attracted to men. He then claimed that he wasn’t interested in me, which was really fucking confusing. And then I had to clarify to everyone at the lunch table that I was, and had always been, straight. Which is weird enough, but I had also now rejected one friend and creeped on another.
Wow that’s a crazy situation haha
Wow, that was pretty wild. Thanks for taking the time to type that out, it was well worth the wait.
No worries :)
I mean, we all know a guy like this. He’s a major bogie on the gaydar and then you find out he bangs chicks and seems to enjoy it.
Great story and well told. Beautiful really. Pan-romantic, I really like that. Wow there are so many gradations of sexuality and identity. I so wish we were talking about this shit when I was a kid.
So much time wasted trying to fit in the restrictive “straight” or “gay” buckets.
Still not as much as the guy in your story, but I can totally see how he could wind up in that situation given the cards dealt.
I know so many people that would have been better off with the range of definitions we have now, if only so they could self label and know what their feelings meant.
Like, demi-sexual. The folks I know that had a big aha! moment when they heard the term and its definition weren’t necessarily unable to find happiness, but they were always questioning what was “wrong” with them, when it’s something that’s common enough that there should have been a term for it all along.
Just that, the knowledge that a person isn’t alone or weird is such a powerful thing.
Had a younger friend multiple decades ago who routinely defined himself as trisexual, in that he was open to try various sexualities.
Yah, I know a guy like that :)
He extended it to “try anything once, twice to make sure I was right about not liking it the first time”.
He’s settled down and married now, but the stories he has because of his adventurousness are pretty fun to hear. He says he’s essentially hetero, but stuff with guys isn’t unpleasant, just not what he really likes for standard sex. He’ll top a guy bdsm wise, but doesn’t really enjoy sex with guys, in other words.
I’ve told him that he sure did a lot of it for something he isn’t into lol.
My friend decided he was bi, but preferared men for the sex and hangouts, women for deeper friendship and intellectual compatibilities. But we’re in the Bible Belt where “it’s only gay if you don’t flaunt toxic masculinity,” so I’m relatively a sure that’s a factor.
Ngl, there’s been a few times I’ve been a little jealous of bi folks. I’ve had guys flirt, and outright hit on me, that were objectively gorgeous, and great dudes too, but it just isn’t there for me.
But I’ve also been real lucky in finding male friends that are capable of really deep, emotionally supportive friendship, then being as good a friend as I know how to be. Gay and straight, even here in Appalachia, I’ve had amazing luck finding good guys that break out of toxic masculinity to be around. It’s a minority, unfortunately, but I’ll take it.
That’s so great, I’m happy you’ve had those experiences. I do so wish that for everyone. Deep emotional friendships are real blessings, and having one real friend is so much more than a lot of people seem to have, regardless of gender. I feel so lucky to have a few good friends. When sharing sorrow, the burden is lightened, when sharing not, it’s vastly multiplied. I would wish at least one really good friendship on every person in the world. How much happier a place the world would be, with the added bonus that really good friends encourage our better impulses and show us reasons not to act on our worst ones.
Wow, labels can be so stupid. I’m glad he found something that works. 👍
Jocat
I had the opposite experience, pansexual but homoromantic, neraly married a woman I thought I loved, sex was amazing and I thought what I felt was love through the eyes of an autistic person, but after she broke up with me and I finally had my first boyfriend, everything clicked.
You can’t miss what you have never had, but once you discover your true self, there is no going back.
Makes total sense to me. He loved his husband and wanted him to be happy, but wasn’t sexually attracted to him. But not a homophobe, so willing to try to make husband happy.
Thanks for sharing this, it was nice to read.
A friend of mine came out as straight to his parents, because he understood that this is someone one does when becoming aware of one’s sexuality, and as a young teen, he had his first crush on a girl. A few years later, he came out as bi.
Edit: just finished reading your story properly and it’s really sweet, thanks for sharing. I find the split model of attraction (romantic/sexual) super useful because of situations like your friend’s; like many bisexuals, I had a period of being “am I ace tho? What even is attraction?” and even though I’m securely bi now so nothing has changed, I appreciate some of the terms and frameworks I’ve picked up from the ace community. Invisible members of the queer community solidarity!
Anon is apparently fake
andgaySpent 10 weeks with another guy and his mom paid $100/hour. They definitely engaged in gay anal sex.
The rare situation where the circles completely overlap in the Venn diagram.
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No, just a mutation of the “anon is fake and gay” meme. Cool story, if it were true, idk.
Bro doesn’t know he’s Asexual yet. I was 25 when I found out. Also thought I might be bi growing up. It was a weird time for us adult Asexuals.
I’m 27 and seriously questioning if I’m actually gay or just some flavor of ace with an aversion to most sexual acts. I haven’t had any sexual contact with a woman except for a single kiss, so I don’t know if I can be sure yet. I absolutely despise the touch of men. It took 3 boyfriends to realize that men disgust me in regards to phyical/romantic/sexual contact.
Did you try looking at photos of naked people?
Yeah. Dicks are disgusting. Naked women are attractive in all aspects. Porn is great if the focus is on the woman and her enjoyment. But I can’t get over how gross oral seems. Like, idk if I could handle it. The thought wigs me out.
Sounds like a clear cut case to me: you’re lesbian. Not sure why you are doubting.
You might just not like oral. Asexuals don’t find people sexually attractive. They can find them aesthetically or romantically attractive, though.
What do you call a cis male who is sexually attracted to the conventionally attractive female phisique, but once it actually gets to acts of sex or porn that depicts it, all interest is completely lost?
Asking for a friend…
A straight man who doesn’t like sex.
That is like the exact opposite of demisexuality. I had to look it up, but it is under the Ace umbrella, and I think it might be Fraysexuality.
What do asexuals think about when they masterbate?
A
Aaaaaaaah
Haha
A lot of asexuals who masturbate don’t do it with a sexual mindset, it’s more like an exercise to relieve stress or get a little boost of dopamine.
It would be like asking “what do people without food fetishes think about when eating?” Idk, whatever is on their mind. They might think about how good it feels, but they could also be thinking about something totally unrelated.
This. Varies by person, but I’d say they’re thinking about the sensation, or possibly a kink (Asexuals can have kinks).
I figured out I was ace about a year or two ago. When I told a friend he said, “Yeah, everyone can tell, you’re the least sexual person I’ve ever met.”
Lol that could be taken different ways.
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Anon got converted by pro conversion therapist.
I’m glad people like that guy exist
What a wholesome story
4-chan greentext almost is ALWAYS trolls and things-that-never-happened.
The story is all kinds of weird shit. I do not want to know what the actual story is anyways.
Of a guy stealing $1000 and not doing the job he we hired for? Good for the kid, but it doesn’t change the fact he stole $1000. And put the kid in a morally ambiguous situation of having a $300 that he knows were stolen from his parents.
Edit: I think people are missing my point. There are three options:
- Do “real” conversion therapy
- Save the kid as he did, steal $700 from the family
- Save the kid as he did (donate the money or give it to the kid)
I’m advocating for option 3, not as people seem to think, option 1.
Stole $1000 (likely from someone who wouldn’t realise it’s even gone) to prevent untold trauma. I understand it’s a grey situation but knowing how damaging conversion therapy can be to a person, I’d say theft is certainly the lesser of two evils.
It sure is better, but still an unnecessary evil. He should have donated the money to conversion therapy victims or gave it all to the kid.
You are saying as if stealing the money is inseparable from the good deed he did. He could do it without also helping himself to the money.
I don’t see how donating it is any less morally wrong. Between what he did and what you propose, both involve using the money to fix the same problem. The difference is just
- whether he provides the services himself or someone else does and
- whether we fix it through prevention or treatment after the fact.
How are both using the money to fix the same problem? The $700 was spent on random bills as far as we know. Not to help more kids.
And what happens when you donate the money? It’s used to pay some other dude’s wages, which then goes towards their bills.
Bills which go towards some goal if you donate it to a charity.
Parents were upset kid said he was gay.
Parents paid dude to get kid to say he wasn’t gay.
Dude convinced kid to say he wasn’t gay.
Dude 100% delivered, and is entitled to the negotiated fee.
These are the possible choices:
1.) He should’ve said nothing as he wasn’t willing to do the conversion therapy and therefore quite possibly let the kid go to a real conversion therapy “camp” of which usually inflict lasting harm.
2.) Actually have done the conversion therapy as asked.
3.) Lie as described in the OP
You said “good for the kid” indicating that you think that conversion therapy is a bad thing but also somehow came to the conclusion that 3. is the least moral choice? What? Baffling.
No, the option I’m thinking of is lie to the parents and don’t keep the money. Either donate it to victims of “real” therapy or give it all to the kid at least. As it stands, he scammed the family out of the $700. The good deed of saving the kid doesn’t cancel it out.
Your option 3 is far better than the others, but it’s not the only option.
Donating stolen money doesn’t make the money not stolen.
And the guy did spend time with the kid, an hour a week for 10 weeks, plus expenses (Xbox games, snacks, etc). So he was absolutely providing a service for the kid, it just wasn’t the service the parents expected. I don’t see any reason for the guy to not expect some form of compensation for that.
I think taking the money was in a good cause, but keeping it wasn’t. But I agree he deserves some compensation.
There are no government standard conversion therapy treatments.
Staying in the closet is the intended outcome and they received that service.
Ha, well I can’t argue with that.
Stealing from bigots isn’t the moral evil you seem to think it is.
Oooo. A loophole. I love loopholes.
Can I defraud the Westboro Baptist Church with a clear conscious?
I don’t know if you’re being serious or sarcastic.
Yes, please do.
Yes.
Any others?
Two wrongs don’t make a right is what I’m thinking.
Okay Mr. Moral Arbiter
You do you, some people care about others. Even though sometimes they don’t deserve it.
You can’t purchase a belief. You can only purchase a claim. They can’t buy their kid’s sexuality, but you don’t have to be straight to claim heterosexuality.
Neither of the two acts is a “wrong” in any legal sense, so any concept of “fraud” is off the table. There is no established set of relevant shared standards or expectations adopted by the affected individuals, so ethicality is also off the table. That just leaves morality to determine right from wrong, and morality is personally subjective: it’s only a moral “wrong” if the individual perceives it to be a wrong.
Aside from situations where legally or ethically compelled to speak the truth, I think that deceiving bigots is a moral imperative. They should be lied to everywhere it is legal and ethical to lie to them.
They want to pay me to lie to them? That’s a win for everyone involved.
Imo option 3 is basically what he did - keeping $700 means he basically took $35/hour as a babysitting fee. Not sure what’s standard for babysitting rates (child free for life), but I sure as shit wouldn’t take responsibility for a child for that much lol. The amount aside, rather than theft I see the situation as him inflating the value of the service he was providing - still a shitty thing to do in other circumstances, but one we collectively accept as not illegal theft when it’s by brand names and “luxury” stuff.
In other circumstances I’d fully agree with your point that the kid’s in a morally ambiguous situation with money he knows wasstolenscammed from his parents, but from both the kids perspectives at the time thinking anon really was gay, he was in a vulnerable position with a very real chance of being cut off by his parents and needing to support himself. That removes any ambiguity imo, even ignoring the fact that his parents are bigots who more than deserved what they got“Real” conversion therapy likely would have been damaging and more expensive. Also, that cash may have given anon some leverage to do things without his parents knowing, also a good thing in the situation described.
A bit of a scam, sure, but it’s not like “real” conversion therapy isn’t, while also inflicting trauma on the recipients.
Of course real conversion therapy would be far worse, and of course it shouldn’t have happened. Doesn’t change the fact the guy helped himself to a $700. If he donated the money to conversion therapy victims, or at least given it all to the kid, it would have been fine.
Let’s recontextualize this - my neighbor wants to spend $5k to remove a safety feature from their car, because they saw a dumb tick tock. Let’s say it’s ABS breaking, they’re just absolutely convinced it’s bad
Now I hear about this, and I don’t want their stupidity to kill their whole family. I offer to do it for $1k, and instead I actually change their brakes.
Is this ethical? In the end, I didn’t honor the words of our agreement, because it was very stupid. It would’ve been unethical, likely illegal, to do what they asked
I did save them money and prevent them from finding someone who would’ve done what they asked. I also did work on their car, just not what they thought I did. They’re happy with the result, and no longer seeking to remove a system they don’t understand
It depends on your ethical framework, but it seems like a stretch to call this theft. The guy in the post provided babysitting and mentorship, which is part of the agreed services. They would probably not have paid so much for what they actually got, but a certain amount of markup is needed to sell the ruse
I’d say the intent is important here. If he did it to help the kid, I’d say you are right. If he did it to scam some people out of money for playing Xbox, then it’s not an excuse. Since this is a made up story, we can discuss either.
Well taking the greentext at face value (otherwise what are we even discussing), it did help the kid. It prevented traumatic unscientific “treatment”, as well as offering a supportive ear - that’s helping the kid
Now let’s say the intent was to scam - let’s say you were scammed into a self help program, and it gives you the confidence to succeed or helps you heal from past trauma… I’d argue that you weren’t scammed, because it worked (even if the intent was predatory)
Psychics come to mind - if people walk out better than they came in, I don’t think you’ve done anything wrong. If they don’t, then you’re taking advantage of them - to me, outcomes matter more than intent.
I think of them like unlicensed therapists - even if you get a license, if you’re causing more harm than help you’re acting unethically, even if you’ve done the paperwork and have good intentions
Outcomes matter more than intent, they’re what we have to live with
Probably almost definitely overall a wholesome story.
I think the kids morally ambiguous situation was better than the situation their parents were putting them in so it’s a net win.
It is better, no question about that
Read till the end he cured him
I don’t see this as stealing, as conversation therapy is a fraudulent and cruel practice in the first place. Bro actually did a form of conversion therapy in a safe and mentally supportive environment. Granted the “conversion” part may have been inadvertent, but he did help someone deal with a potentially traumatizing situation and saved him from harm. Which gave OP the time and space to really look at himself and discover who he truly is. I think that’s worth the $1K that would’ve gone toward a far more evil practice.
Sure, that’s a valid perspective.
Conversion therapy isn’t real though; you can’t make someone not be gay. From the parent’s perspective, their problem is likely that they think they have a religious obligation to not accept homosexuality (perhaps their place in their community depends on this), but also want a relationship with their son, and don’t want to have to choose between these. So probably what they really want is for their son to go back in the closet in a way that is plausible, and the service they are paying for offers that plausibility and creates the greatest possible chance of it happening (being nice to anon and letting him know he has an undo button without feeding him bullshit or being pushy).
So on second thought, maybe it’s not unambiguously wholesome, because it is lies and could be enabling a homophobic culture. But on the other hand it’s probably for the best that this sort of conflict be put off until anon is no longer a teenager who is totally dependent on their parents. Whether the money was earned honestly I think is less of a big deal here ethically, it’s basically in the same category as paying for a consultation with a psychic, the sort of thing where they are all but explicitly paying for the fiction.
That’s why I put “real” in quotes
I figured, but seems relevant that what they’re buying is bullshit no matter what
Amazing how just giving people time to figure it out for themselves is so effective. So glad anon realized they’re ace before getting into something serious and getting hurt.
Based.
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No one want to read a micro font book.
Apparently at least 90 people did.
Wow, 90 people. I stand corrected.
