As a trans Catholic it kind of hurts that the Pope saying something not completely venomous about people like me is enough to drive someone to drink.
But mostly it’s just kind of sad how wrapped in hatred their Christianity is.
I try not to put much stock in what these “online trad convert” types think tho.
I have a fair amount of trauma binding me to the faith. May have been brought up in a cult-like community. But trying to separate from Christianity feels like tearing off the majority of my self. I believe in Jesus, but I believe he taught us to love each other like ourselves, so all the hate and division Christians sow, to me, seems counter to the Gospel they claim to believe in. Some of them would probably call me a heretic or straight up a nonbeliever. So whether I’m really a Christian may be up for debate.
questioning why religious, full respect to your beliefs though
why have you remained? Is it a cultural aspect with some spirituality and practice, or is it a hard C Catholic? Ex-Catholic myself and while I’m aware there’s not necessarily a strict cut-off line and human decency can be found anywhere, the Vatican’s positions strike me as contradicting your identity itself, no? (granted no theologian or close, just came from a shitty highly religious family with a “legalistic Catholic” kind of chud of a dad)
My relationship with the Church or religion hasn’t always been steady, I had an atheist phase around high school, but after that I kind of developed an interest in myth, religion and philosophy.
That makes me sound a lot smarter than I was, my understanding of a lot of it was pretty shallow and partially motivated by a desire to seem cultured and intelligent.
Still, there was some kind of desire for spirituality behind it which eventually led me to looking into Unitarian Universalists as their whole vibe was kind of syncretic “every religion has something important to teach”.
After awhile I felt drawn back to Christianity, but I wasn’t really sure what to do about it.
I settled on the United Church of Christ because there was a decent amount of them where I lived, they were fairly liberal, and they seemed to have a ecumenical vibe.
Something about it though rubbed me the wrong way and it would continue to rub me the wrong way as I explored other options in the “theologically liberal mainline protestant sphere”.
The Church had Calvanist roots which I didn’t really vibe with, but it also felt like these roots almost didn’t matter at all.
It felt like often the religion itself was not taken very seriously, that it was merely liberalism and liberals with ritual.
To them The Eucharist was a mere symbol, and it didn’t feel like it would be out of place to hold the belief that the Resurrection didn’t really happen, or that Jesus was just a human with nice teachings.
At this time I delved more into the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism and came away with a greater appreciation for certain aspects of Catholic theology.
I wanted something closer to my upbringing and more closely connected to the history and tradition of the Church, which lead me to Episcopalians and their Anglo-Catholic tradition.
I still struggled with the liberalism thing mentioned above though, the only thing really keeping me was their stance on LGBT people, but after finding Catholic Churches nearby that were LGBT-friendly and whose Priest was very kind and took his faith very seriously I kind of abandoned ship.
Why Christianity?
It really comes down to The Trinity, the Incarnation and the Resurrection I guess.
The idea of their being a God who loves us so much that He would become like us, to be closer to us and to bring us closer to Him is admittedly a nice thought.
The revelation of God through Christ turns the whole world upside down, he is a King, but he is born in a manger not a palace. He isn’t served but serves. Christ’s Kingship subverts our very ideas of Kingship.
He doesn’t conquer through killing and death, but in dying conquers death.
And in his Resurrection there is hope for the whole world.
Hope that death and injustice and sorrow will not have the final say and in the end every tear will be wiped away.
The Trinity likewise is a concept many cannot wrap their head around, but to me it is one of the most meaningful aspects of Christian theology.
In the Trinity the very being of our universe and reality is shown to be relational and that relationship is one of love.
It sort of effects my whole outlook on life.
Why Catholicism?
I suppose the most obvious question would be why a trans person would be part of the Catholic Church?
Like I said above, I was lucky enough to find Churches that are welcoming and open to trans people.
There is also a few Catholic organizations dedicated to ministering to and advocating for LGBT Catholics, a Dominican Priest involved in this has recently been named a Cardinal even.
Pope Francis’s official statements and documents last year saying same-sex couples could be blessed and that trans people could be baptized and be Godparents has also made me feel more comfortable as a trans Catholic.
Really despite a lot of valid criticisms Francis’s Papacy, the spirit of his Papacy and of the Synod on Synodality and really the spirit of Vatican ii he is trying to carry forward give me hope.
It really feels like the Church is trying to be a “universal church”.
I have a shared connection with the Haitians and Latin Americans in my community and with other people throughout the world.
I mean there are protestants all over the world and they are connected through organizations, don’t get me wrong, but my experience just left me feeling like I was in white people central.
idk if that makes sense.
As for more theological reasons:
Mary
Purgatory and praying for the dead
Transubstantiation
Thanks for your incredibly beautiful/interesting response- tbh I’d really love to talk with you more on the subject, and I’d love to chat about other things you mentioned as well like religion/mythology/philosophy, though I myself doubt I can contribute much more than a shallow idea of most of it.
CW: experiences with intolerance, my assumptions or parents' assumptions
Admittedly, part of my interest in talking further also is to learn but also to perhaps help with my own family (though those who matter are at least good and accepting now, and my dad is a dipshit… though even then I am still curious)
I must admit, I wasn’t aware that there were churches- in full communion/orthodoxy(?) with the Vatican at that, which would genuinely accept LGBT people and welcome them/give respect to their identities and accept them living their lives as they are rather than suppressing themselves, without saying they were “living in sin.”
Personally, I can really understand the appeal of Christianity especially in its origins as a grassroots, progressive religion- it took me a while to come to such a point of measured understanding and even critical appreciation rather than hatred, in particular regarding Catholicism, after leaving the church due to my personal history of both childhood/family trauma and later familial rejection. And I get where your appreciation comes from in regards to the theological aspects, when you describe them I can see an appeal to them as well and am aware of and understand the concepts (they were rather drilled into my head) even if I never particularly focused on them when I was a Catholic myself (I was a angry kid, religion was rather my vent, and seeing what it did to my family also made it less likely for me to associate positive belief other than cultural kinship and ethical foundations with it).
Catholicism, or former Catholicism anyways, certainly still plays an immense role in my mentality and principles, for better and for worse (both). And I have an appreciation and complicated relationship for, and grounding in the history, culture, and traditions- the latter two typically from a safe distance, admittedly.
As for the cultural connection with Haitians and Latin-Americans- that’s another good point, and part of what I guessed was likely a reason. I’m really glad you have found such community and connections. Beyond my immediate family and paternal relatives I don’t have quite the same bond (ethnic Chinese and on both sides it is a product of mostly recent missionary evangelization - though it probably runs rather deep in my paternal grandma’s family history). But I’m glad you have it, and I certainly have felt kinship at times due to the shared- understanding of sorts, even as an ex-Catholic, with Latino communities in particular (haven’t really met any Haitians that I know of).
I’m happy to talk, although how useful you find it might vary.
I don’t want to give off the impression I’m very educated, I’m rather stupid.
spoiler
Most of the supportive churches I am aware of are in large metropolis in the US, Britain, and Germany.
But yeah, they are in full communion.
There might be some tension, especially with conservative/traditional wings of the Church, but there isn’t really a threat of excommunication or anything like that for those involved.
I’m sorry you went through all that.
Too many have been hurt and are still being hurt.
The communal aspect is something I really appreciate, but not something I really live in full.
I mostly isolate myself from other people, and even God, it’s something I’m trying to work on.
It doesn’t have to be useful, it’s also just very interesting and refreshing hearing your different experiences. And education has nothing to do with intelligence or how interesting you are nor how much you have to offer- though if need be we can be stupid together (I’m also a lump)
spoiler
I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some, or at least one such church where I am then (large metropolis… Klanada). Growing up I definitely saw and was around the more conservative, traditional wings (and in regards to my family as a kid- the also pretty cultlike wings).
I wouldn’t have expected excommunication (though I’m not a Catholic anymore), but for instance I’d be surprised if- though hearing your experiences perhaps it is different in some places- you were, if not not welcome, prevented from receiving communion, etc. In truth I wouldn’t have expected people to be able to simply enter Catholic churches presenting as other than their assigned-at-birth gender, or with their gay partners, etc. either.
There’s nothing to apologize for on your end, FWIW. Nowadays I’ve made my peace with it somewhat, but more than that- as with all things, religion always wound up being just another excuse or avenue for people (like my family) to spiral if you ask me. Not to excuse things for the institution and legacy itself, but it certainly had nothing to do with you and if anything it’s nice hearing of these positive developments, as tense as they may be.
As for the communal aspect- outside of religion as well, it’s something I’m struggling with. Socializing and belonging in general can be hard as hell, if you ever want to chat on it I’d be glad to for anything. Personally while I’ve not delved much into it and don’t think I’d ever call myself an overly spiritually-inclined person but myself- sometimes wanting some connection or grounding in the world (while being an agnostic) I’ve been thinking about perhaps delving into Shenism (“Chinese folk religion/s”), as well as Buddhism which I have had some interaction with from my mom’s side and which has helped me greatly in secular ways as well. And- while it took a while for me to return to some levels of appreciation in it, I still have a great- respect or grounding, even if I don’t think I’d say I believe in the theology behind it, for the idealized/original character, principles and the grassroots history of the church as I described.
And I can 100% relate to that isolation “even from God” (using the caps in respect to yours/your belief, anyways). Or that isolation from- the natural world, from some metaphysical, perhaps nonexistent or otherwise intangible and idealized state of being. I probably isolate myself from myself (though I get caught up in my thoughts a ton as well) by distractions or sleeping as well I guess. But I get where you’re coming from and would be glad to talk (or just chat stupid stuff) if you want. Been trying (and I suppose somewhat doing?) to connect with other humans at least and in the past… ehh few days I feel I’ve been gradually reviving in that regard, perhaps. But anyways yeah (I ramble, sorry). I’d be glad to talk
As a trans Catholic it kind of hurts that the Pope saying something not completely venomous about people like me is enough to drive someone to drink.
But mostly it’s just kind of sad how wrapped in hatred their Christianity is.
I try not to put much stock in what these “online trad convert” types think tho.
As somebody living in a heavily Catholic European country, oh boy do I have tales for you.
I know it’s not rational because I know not all Christians are like that but I can’t help but side-eye anybody that’s openly Christian.
I have a fair amount of trauma binding me to the faith. May have been brought up in a cult-like community. But trying to separate from Christianity feels like tearing off the majority of my self. I believe in Jesus, but I believe he taught us to love each other like ourselves, so all the hate and division Christians sow, to me, seems counter to the Gospel they claim to believe in. Some of them would probably call me a heretic or straight up a nonbeliever. So whether I’m really a Christian may be up for debate.
FWIW You sound like a more geniune Christian than like 99% of Christians I’ve met.
you really shouldn’t. its like asking a sex pest tourist what they think of your hometown.
Yeah,it’s like asking what Andrew Tate thought of Romania
SMH,as much as I have my misgivings about Ceausescu,that mf would have been taken by the Securitate and shot day one in his Romania
If you don’t mind me asking, (if not no worries)
questioning why religious, full respect to your beliefs though
why have you remained? Is it a cultural aspect with some spirituality and practice, or is it a hard C Catholic? Ex-Catholic myself and while I’m aware there’s not necessarily a strict cut-off line and human decency can be found anywhere, the Vatican’s positions strike me as contradicting your identity itself, no? (granted no theologian or close, just came from a shitty highly religious family with a “legalistic Catholic” kind of chud of a dad)
fair to say cw: for religion in all of these
Personal Religious History
My relationship with the Church or religion hasn’t always been steady, I had an atheist phase around high school, but after that I kind of developed an interest in myth, religion and philosophy.
That makes me sound a lot smarter than I was, my understanding of a lot of it was pretty shallow and partially motivated by a desire to seem cultured and intelligent.
Still, there was some kind of desire for spirituality behind it which eventually led me to looking into Unitarian Universalists as their whole vibe was kind of syncretic “every religion has something important to teach”.
After awhile I felt drawn back to Christianity, but I wasn’t really sure what to do about it.
I settled on the United Church of Christ because there was a decent amount of them where I lived, they were fairly liberal, and they seemed to have a ecumenical vibe.
Something about it though rubbed me the wrong way and it would continue to rub me the wrong way as I explored other options in the “theologically liberal mainline protestant sphere”.
The Church had Calvanist roots which I didn’t really vibe with, but it also felt like these roots almost didn’t matter at all.
It felt like often the religion itself was not taken very seriously, that it was merely liberalism and liberals with ritual.
To them The Eucharist was a mere symbol, and it didn’t feel like it would be out of place to hold the belief that the Resurrection didn’t really happen, or that Jesus was just a human with nice teachings.
At this time I delved more into the differences between Protestantism and Catholicism and came away with a greater appreciation for certain aspects of Catholic theology.
I wanted something closer to my upbringing and more closely connected to the history and tradition of the Church, which lead me to Episcopalians and their Anglo-Catholic tradition.
I still struggled with the liberalism thing mentioned above though, the only thing really keeping me was their stance on LGBT people, but after finding Catholic Churches nearby that were LGBT-friendly and whose Priest was very kind and took his faith very seriously I kind of abandoned ship.
Why Christianity?
It really comes down to The Trinity, the Incarnation and the Resurrection I guess.
The idea of their being a God who loves us so much that He would become like us, to be closer to us and to bring us closer to Him is admittedly a nice thought.
The revelation of God through Christ turns the whole world upside down, he is a King, but he is born in a manger not a palace. He isn’t served but serves. Christ’s Kingship subverts our very ideas of Kingship.
He doesn’t conquer through killing and death, but in dying conquers death. And in his Resurrection there is hope for the whole world. Hope that death and injustice and sorrow will not have the final say and in the end every tear will be wiped away.
The Trinity likewise is a concept many cannot wrap their head around, but to me it is one of the most meaningful aspects of Christian theology.
In the Trinity the very being of our universe and reality is shown to be relational and that relationship is one of love.
It sort of effects my whole outlook on life.
Why Catholicism?
I suppose the most obvious question would be why a trans person would be part of the Catholic Church?
Like I said above, I was lucky enough to find Churches that are welcoming and open to trans people. There is also a few Catholic organizations dedicated to ministering to and advocating for LGBT Catholics, a Dominican Priest involved in this has recently been named a Cardinal even.
Pope Francis’s official statements and documents last year saying same-sex couples could be blessed and that trans people could be baptized and be Godparents has also made me feel more comfortable as a trans Catholic.
Really despite a lot of valid criticisms Francis’s Papacy, the spirit of his Papacy and of the Synod on Synodality and really the spirit of Vatican ii he is trying to carry forward give me hope.
It really feels like the Church is trying to be a “universal church”.
I have a shared connection with the Haitians and Latin Americans in my community and with other people throughout the world.
I mean there are protestants all over the world and they are connected through organizations, don’t get me wrong, but my experience just left me feeling like I was in white people central.
idk if that makes sense.
As for more theological reasons: Mary
Purgatory and praying for the dead Transubstantiation
Thanks for your incredibly beautiful/interesting response- tbh I’d really love to talk with you more on the subject, and I’d love to chat about other things you mentioned as well like religion/mythology/philosophy, though I myself doubt I can contribute much more than a shallow idea of most of it.
CW: experiences with intolerance, my assumptions or parents' assumptions
Admittedly, part of my interest in talking further also is to learn but also to perhaps help with my own family (though those who matter are at least good and accepting now, and my dad is a dipshit… though even then I am still curious)
I must admit, I wasn’t aware that there were churches- in full communion/orthodoxy(?) with the Vatican at that, which would genuinely accept LGBT people and welcome them/give respect to their identities and accept them living their lives as they are rather than suppressing themselves, without saying they were “living in sin.”
Personally, I can really understand the appeal of Christianity especially in its origins as a grassroots, progressive religion- it took me a while to come to such a point of measured understanding and even critical appreciation rather than hatred, in particular regarding Catholicism, after leaving the church due to my personal history of both childhood/family trauma and later familial rejection. And I get where your appreciation comes from in regards to the theological aspects, when you describe them I can see an appeal to them as well and am aware of and understand the concepts (they were rather drilled into my head) even if I never particularly focused on them when I was a Catholic myself (I was a angry kid, religion was rather my vent, and seeing what it did to my family also made it less likely for me to associate positive belief other than cultural kinship and ethical foundations with it).
Catholicism, or former Catholicism anyways, certainly still plays an immense role in my mentality and principles, for better and for worse (both). And I have an appreciation and complicated relationship for, and grounding in the history, culture, and traditions- the latter two typically from a safe distance, admittedly.
As for the cultural connection with Haitians and Latin-Americans- that’s another good point, and part of what I guessed was likely a reason. I’m really glad you have found such community and connections. Beyond my immediate family and paternal relatives I don’t have quite the same bond (ethnic Chinese and on both sides it is a product of mostly recent missionary evangelization - though it probably runs rather deep in my paternal grandma’s family history). But I’m glad you have it, and I certainly have felt kinship at times due to the shared- understanding of sorts, even as an ex-Catholic, with Latino communities in particular (haven’t really met any Haitians that I know of).
I’m happy to talk, although how useful you find it might vary.
I don’t want to give off the impression I’m very educated, I’m rather stupid.
spoiler
Most of the supportive churches I am aware of are in large metropolis in the US, Britain, and Germany.
But yeah, they are in full communion.
There might be some tension, especially with conservative/traditional wings of the Church, but there isn’t really a threat of excommunication or anything like that for those involved.
I’m sorry you went through all that.
Too many have been hurt and are still being hurt.
The communal aspect is something I really appreciate, but not something I really live in full.
I mostly isolate myself from other people, and even God, it’s something I’m trying to work on.
It doesn’t have to be useful, it’s also just very interesting and refreshing hearing your different experiences. And education has nothing to do with intelligence or how interesting you are nor how much you have to offer- though if need be we can be stupid together (I’m also a lump)
spoiler
I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some, or at least one such church where I am then (large metropolis… Klanada). Growing up I definitely saw and was around the more conservative, traditional wings (and in regards to my family as a kid- the also pretty cultlike wings).
I wouldn’t have expected excommunication (though I’m not a Catholic anymore), but for instance I’d be surprised if- though hearing your experiences perhaps it is different in some places- you were, if not not welcome, prevented from receiving communion, etc. In truth I wouldn’t have expected people to be able to simply enter Catholic churches presenting as other than their assigned-at-birth gender, or with their gay partners, etc. either.
There’s nothing to apologize for on your end, FWIW. Nowadays I’ve made my peace with it somewhat, but more than that- as with all things, religion always wound up being just another excuse or avenue for people (like my family) to spiral if you ask me. Not to excuse things for the institution and legacy itself, but it certainly had nothing to do with you and if anything it’s nice hearing of these positive developments, as tense as they may be.
As for the communal aspect- outside of religion as well, it’s something I’m struggling with. Socializing and belonging in general can be hard as hell, if you ever want to chat on it I’d be glad to for anything. Personally while I’ve not delved much into it and don’t think I’d ever call myself an overly spiritually-inclined person but myself- sometimes wanting some connection or grounding in the world (while being an agnostic) I’ve been thinking about perhaps delving into Shenism (“Chinese folk religion/s”), as well as Buddhism which I have had some interaction with from my mom’s side and which has helped me greatly in secular ways as well. And- while it took a while for me to return to some levels of appreciation in it, I still have a great- respect or grounding, even if I don’t think I’d say I believe in the theology behind it, for the idealized/original character, principles and the grassroots history of the church as I described.
And I can 100% relate to that isolation “even from God” (using the caps in respect to yours/your belief, anyways). Or that isolation from- the natural world, from some metaphysical, perhaps nonexistent or otherwise intangible and idealized state of being. I probably isolate myself from myself (though I get caught up in my thoughts a ton as well) by distractions or sleeping as well I guess. But I get where you’re coming from and would be glad to talk (or just chat stupid stuff) if you want. Been trying (and I suppose somewhat doing?) to connect with other humans at least and in the past… ehh few days I feel I’ve been gradually reviving in that regard, perhaps. But anyways yeah (I ramble, sorry). I’d be glad to talk