• Muinteoir_Saoirse [she/her]@hexbear.net
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    3 days ago

    “I also reject the framing of “Israel makes Jews unsafe/increases antisemitism” because: (1) we’re the oppressors in the context of Israel, not the victims; (2) this framing abdicates Jewish responsibility because ‘Israel’ is not an amorphous self-animating thing that merely hovers over us, it is a colony that we as Jews actively build and sustain daily through concerted generational effort; (3) that’s not “antisemitism” it’s a reaction to Jewish-led genocide which all our institutions support; (4) you’re conceding to the propaganda that there is a “rise in antisemitism” when Jews currently do not face systemic oppression for being Jewish and the “antisemitic incidents” data is tracked such that every anti-zionist protest sign is clocked as a separate “antisemitic incident” by the ADL so; (5) enough with the Jewish victimhood, “Jewish safety” and “antisemitism” talk, it’s just a distraction from Jewish-perpetrated genocide of Palestinians, Arabs, and Muslims.”

    Great read, thanks for posting!

  • MLRL_Commie [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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    3 days ago

    A very tough read for westerners, very confronting. It’s very clearly written by a Maoist, though I find it hard to find a point of disagreement except at very abstract levels. But very powerfully written a d brings it back to material support or opposition. I do think it might rely a bit on a martyr complex, but the argument works because there’s no organized, materially anti-zionist movement among western Judaism. So lacking even an ineffective martyr is still fairly noteworthy.

    I found it hard to accept such a damning account, but I experience that more from maoist writing. I guess that is to say, jews that want to be anti-zionist should probably organize (not the zionist communist party, like one that will really confront the moment) instead of being a martyr who falls to adventurism.

    Otherwise great piece. Thanks for sharing

  • OgdenTO [he/him]@hexbear.net
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    3 days ago

    Conflating all Jews with Zionism is actual antisemitism - and I am having a hard time getting past that this is the premise of the article. While there are some interesting ideas in here around decolonizarion and how Jews in the West can be actual anti-Zionists, she also treats the Jewish diaspora as a monolith - which is kind of antisemitic also.

    I think overall her exaggeration and generalization, while effective for a punchy title, pushes this particular piece over the line and it will be used as an example for tying leftwing anti-Zionist movements to antisemitism.

    If I’m misreading something I’d love to know, but this article is giving me some ethical trouble.

    • Speaker [e/em/eir]@hexbear.net
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      2 days ago

      If you run a bar and don’t kick out Nazis, you run a Nazi bar. If you’re a regular at a bar that doesn’t kick out Nazis, you’re a regular at a Nazi bar. If you cannot summon the ethical fortitude to forthrightly reject and eject Nazism in your community, your family, your church, you’re materially aiding the Nazi project.

      I agree, the article is giving you some ethical trouble. You should consider if you are ethically aligning yourself against Zionism if you cannot stomach the dissolution of organs and organizations that serve Zionism before Jews. Judaism is a religion, and connecting modern Judaism to a mythologized Jewish “race” is exactly Zionism.

      • OgdenTO [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        2 days ago

        I’m fine with the dissolution of these organs, and I’m not sure that the Nazi bar analogy works here. There’s still a difference between someone who practices Judaism and someone involved in the Zionist-supporting organizations. A person can be culturally Jewish and be vocally against support of Israel, and also for BDS, for example. There is a breadth of diversity amongst the Jewish diaspora, as well as a history of jewish-run cultural organizations that have disassociated from and denounce Israel and Zionism. This article diminishes this identity and work and lumps all Jews into one “morally bankrupt” basket.

        For example, JVP, which is a large organization. There are enough thought leaders to support a conference on non-zionist traditions at Brown, and this is just one of many.

        Anyway, I see I might be one of the few here who thinks that calling for Jewish people (any person who is Jewish will do!) to sacrifice their life for the struggle against Israel, and then setting that as the bar for proving that the Jewish people aren’t “morally bankrupt” is antisemitic, so I’ll just stop now.

    • invalidusernamelol [he/him]@hexbear.netM
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      2 days ago

      Zionism is not fringe within Judaism: It is ubiquitous. It is incumbent upon Jewish people of conscience to make the distinction between Zionism and Judaism materially true by destroying Zionism in our own communities, not denying our widespread complicity and policing others merely observing the fascistic reality of modern Judaism.

      This article is a call to action directed at the Jewish community by a Jewish person. If it was Steven Miller or some other WASP fascist saying this you’d be correct.

      • OgdenTO [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        2 days ago

        You probably pulled the best section from the article. There are really great, materialist critiques of Judaism and it’s cultural orgs in there. But there are parts of this article that also veer into antisemitism. Everyone seems to be curling up into a defensive ball rather than discussing that.

    • mathemachristian [he/him]@hexbear.net
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      3 days ago

      Zionism is not external to Judaism. I think you’re issue stems from thinking that this applies zionist metaphysically, as something intrinsic to ones character, but it’s applying it dialetectically as to how jewish people relate to Israel, settlerism, colonialism and other zionists.

        • mathemachristian [he/him]@hexbear.net
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          3 days ago

          Exactly, “Yes all jews” is not to say that “jews are zionists because their noses are shaped like that” but because they are part of a religion where almost(?) every single institution has been co-opted by zionism and there is no movement to push them out. Judaism is an organized religion where almost(?) all the organisation are zionist.

      • OgdenTO [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        2 days ago

        I mean, she describes it as a character flaw. She literally calls the entirety of Judaism morally bankrupt.

        The fact that virtually all Jews and Jewish spaces are Zionist and support the existence of Israel is an indictment of us as a morally bankrupt people.

        This is the treatment of the diaspora as all exactly the same that feels antisemitic in the way it’s presented. I appreciate the dialectical analysis that the Jewish cultural establishment is doing nothing to reduce its support of Israel. But she goes over the top in parts of the discussion and crosses a line, in my opinion.

        • Kumikommunism [comrade/them, any]@hexbear.net
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          2 days ago

          She literally calls the entirety of Judaism morally bankrupt.

          So can you describe to me the Judaism you’re talking about that isn’t the cause, justification, and driving force of a genocide? Or how genocide isn’t morally bankrupt? What exactly are you arguing?

          • OgdenTO [he/him]@hexbear.net
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            2 days ago

            Sorry, it appears you are also conflating Jewish people and Israel. Yes, the article describes how the majority of Jewish organizations do support this system. But saying an entire race of people is morally bankrupt is a bit over the edge for me.

            I think you feel strongly about this and I don’t appreciate your aggression. I am suggesting that this author goes over the antisemitism line here, which I’m not wrong about.

            • Kumikommunism [comrade/them, any]@hexbear.net
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              2 days ago

              Uh, no, the quote was about Judaism, not an entire race of people. Again, which Judaism are you saying it’s wrong to call morally bankrupt? What are you actually saying?

              There was no aggression in my comment. I just asked you for any clarification whatsoever, any positive claim, and all you did, again, is say nothing at all.

              which I’m not wrong about

              You are.

              • OgdenTO [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                2 days ago

                The quote was about an entire people. Anyway, I’m definitely not saying nothing, and accusing me of not reading the article is quite aggressive. I think you should read the article again and really consider how generalizing an entire group of people, particularly when sloppy treatment of the line between Zionism and being Jewish is being weaponized these days, can be harmful and honestly antisemitic. Anyway, I guess I expected a bit more thoughtfulness from this place, with a critique pointing out the good and bad parts of this article, rather than just wholesale support of a good piece that is problematic in sections.

            • OgdenTO [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              2 days ago

              Look, I don’t feel that strongly about this - I just think it’s a particularly bad look for hexbear to support an antisemitic viewpoint.

              fedposting

      • OgdenTO [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        2 days ago

        Well, it is. So I don’t know what else to say about that. I for one don’t think it supports any argument to say that all of one race is responsible for a genocide, even when a majority of Jewish cultural establishment does in fact support Israel. It’s not a race thing. The Jewish diaspora is not a monolith. Saying that is the antisemitic part. The parts about critiquing that establishment, about critiquing the orgs and temples and their members that continue to support Israel is fair - but there are a significant numbers of diasporic Jews that speak out blatantly about ending the genocide. JVP for example, many local progressive Jewish cultural schools disavow Israel and support Palestine. To ignore these and lump all Jews together on one bucket is racism.