Things that are so obvious and ingrained that no one even thinks about them.
Here’s a few:
All US americans can go to Mexico EASILY. You’re supposed to have a passport but you don’t even need one (for car/foot crossing). Versus, it’s really hard for Mexicans, who aren’t wealthy, to secure a VISA to enter the US. I’m sure there are corollaries in other geo-regions.
Another one is wealthy countries having access to vaccines far ahead of “poor” countries.
In US, we might pay lip service to equal child-hood education but most of the funding pulls from local taxes so some kids might receive ~$10000 in spending while another receives $2000. I’m not looking it up at the moment, but I’m SURE there are strong racial stratas.
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their criticism of the US founding fathers isn’t “blind” but is based on the stuff they did, and how it completely contradicted their professed values of freedom and liberty.
Are you making the case that anyone who doesn’t view the founding fathers in the same way, who doesn’t passionately hate them without consideration of any good they accomplished, is therefore wrong about everything and incapable of having acceptable opinions on other topics? That sounds like tribalism and is what I was responding to. I mean, if you tell me straight up that my every opinion is wrong and advertise that you have no intention and feel no obligation to have a good faith discussion, then that makes you an extremist, a fanatic, and further dialog is pointless. I enjoy the discussion and challenge engaging with different views, but when my comments get deleted after being personally attacked, then the discussion has probably run it’s course.
this is your characterization. I never said “I HATE THE FOUNDING FATHERS AND REFUSE TO CONSIDER ANYTHING ABOUT THEM AAAAAAAAAAAA.”
No. I have carefully considered their entire legacy. Thanks! I am even able to distinguish between those among them who owned slaves, and those among them who were merely friends with slave owners. I am able to distinguish between George Washington, who put down Shay’s rebellion, and Benjamin Franklin, who claimed that making the inhabitants of the Earth whiter was a noble pursuit. I am able to distinguish between John Quincy Adams, who wanted slavery abolished eventually (as long as no slave owners got hurt in the process!) and Thomas Jefferson, who actively sexually assaulted his slaves and sold his own children.
I am able to treat them as individuals, assess their legacies, and come to the conclusion that they were bourgeois nationalists, and to the extent that their cause was “progressive” against the British monarchy, is negated entirely by the genocidal settler-colonial territory they lived on, whose economy was based largely on slavery. I am also able to remember that their primary motivation for independence wasn’t opposition to monarchy or love of bourgeois republicanism, but anger at taxation, the highest crime a bourgeois individual can suffer. Having their profits decreased.
if you’re just going to ask questions about things I never said, it’s not going to be a very productive conversation
No. I’m not saying that. But you seem uninterested in directly quoting what I did say and responding to it.
Define this tribalism which so concerns you. What “tribe” have you determined me to be a member of?
good thing I never said that. If you said 2+2= 4 I would tell you you’re right. Perhaps you’re engaged with multiple people and you’re becoming increasingly confused. I recommend re-reading everything I’ve said to you thus far and thinking a bit harder about it.
lol. you have decided I am a bunch of scary things and not worth talking to or listening to. This makes me the extreme one.
You just jumped into the middle of a conversation between me and someone else, or maybe I responded to the wrong person. Anyway this particular thread was in response to machiabelly or something like that.
I made that clear when I referred directly to them (the person you were previously speaking to) but then you became confused and spoke to me as though I were them, despite that.
Yeah, I don’t respect you. You compared a descendant of slaves to a slaver. But I haven’t dehumanized you. I don’t think you understand what dehumanizing is. I don’t have any desire to deny you healthcare, basic needs, safety. I don’t want to hurt you physically. I haven’t compared you to an animal, or objectified you. My disrespect is based entirely your dehumanization of George Floyd. Something you can control. Something entirely based in your consciousness, something human. Opinions can change.
Please justify the things you say. Nothing you say is supported by any logic or reasoning. Telling me I have “blind” hatred for the founding fathers despite listing the reasons why I do, without addressing those points, is just a waste of time.
How are my political beliefs more tribal than that of the racist and sexist founding fathers?
Are you my enemy? All I did was say I disrespect you for dehumanizing george floyd and excusing slavers. We’re just talking. My enemies are defined by material reality, not anger. You could just be another worker. Exploited for the same reasons I am. We could be comrades if you let go of the racism.
Lastly hexbear shows pronouns right next to the username, don’t use “guy” when addressing me.
Yeah sorry about that, can’t keep track of everyone so I went back to assuming everyone on the internet is a guy. Anyway, do you deny that George Floyd has become larger than life, symbolic and important in a way that is bigger and more pure than he ever was in real life, despite his shortcomings as a person?
Are you going to answer any of my questions?
George Floyd’s criminal record is not comparable to owning hundreds of chattel slaves. They are different leagues. The fact that you are trying to force this comparison is deeply racist, just like I said like 5 comments ago.
Even if we entertain your line of thinking I still disagree. George Floyd represents the fight against the white supremacist cruelty of the American police state. The founding fathers represent an America that exists to serve landowning white men. If you want to somehow make that seem like a good thing you have to answer for America’s crimes which I listed like 5 comments ago.
The founding fathers do not represent an America that exists to serve landowning white men, at least not to the majority of the country. To many people, they symbolize something else entirely that is bigger and better than the men that they actually were, something noble, independent, freedom-loving, bold, courageous, and all that. Again, regardless of how true it is, they serve as an idea at this point.
But for you they serve as the opposite sort of symbol, one of oppression, greed, selfishness. The founding fathers were both of these, and what they represent to different people depends on perspective and world view.
If it wasn’t for the constant propaganda that Americans are exposed to far fewer people would think that the founding fathers symbolize that. People believing in lies doesn’t make the crimes of the founding fathers acceptable. And believing those lies causes people to blind themselves to the reality of America and its crimes. When people believe something other than the truth it leads them into a future that doesn’t learn from the past.
Look at how much the situation in Palestine is changing the opinions of America. Many people are seeing the full extent of America’s violent foreign policy. It’s shaking their belief in America as something noble and freedom loving. I believe this is a good thing. More people’s political opinions will be rooted in the truth. It could effect how people vote, protest, organize. I think this could lead to positive change.
Are you saying that people shouldn’t care about the truth? What is your point exactly? You haven’t actually stated any belief. Is it important to you that America is seen as noble, independent, freedom-loving, bold and courageous? Why is it important to you that the founding fathers are seen this way? Why do you think its ok for people to believe lies when they’ve never been offered the truth? Why do you value the mythology of the founding fathers more than the reality of the founding fathers? You called me childish for caring about the truth of the founding fathers, and for not valuing the lies about the founding fathers. This is insane to me.
Some people’s perspective and worldview are wrong. It seems like you think tribalism is when someone thinks their worldview is right and someone else’s is wrong. What is your political ideology? That seems like a centrist take if I’ve ever seen one.
I’ve been accused of being a centrist before. What makes you think that your world view, your life experience is worth more than mine? Whose experience is more real, more true? I think tribalism is when you think your world view is the only one that matters, that anyone who agrees with it is part of your tribe, and anyone who doesn’t see it that way is in a different tribe. Tribalism is instinctive and getting rid of it requires open minded exposure to people with different world views.
George Washington wearing dentures made of slave teeth is not “life experience.” Its a simple historical fact. I have no desire to base my beliefs on mythology. I base my beliefs on fact. I cannot have a discussion about Washington without mentioning the facts of his life. This includes talking about his crimes against humanity. You think I am immature and childish because I don’t value beliefs about washington unless they are based in the facts of his life. You value mythology and historical fact similarly. Serious discussion requires a foundation of fact. You are fundamentally unserious.
I love how you are so carefully avoiding committing any beliefs or assertions to this discussion. All you do is try and poke holes in what I say. When I respond you hide behind rudimentary, “everything is relative” arguments. You are the philosophical equivalent of, “I know you are but what am I?”
What is your political ideology?
I can’t really sum up my ideology or identity in a word or a political team, but in general I’m proud of my country while recognizing that we’ve had a dark past and we have plenty of work to do today as well, despite great strides and an overall very high quality of life. The fact that we have the luxury of dedicating so much time debating these issues alone is evidence of this.
Probably the single most important phrase in my life when it comes to debating controversial topics is that where there is understanding, there can be no hatred. Everyone has a different life experience, different challenges and trials, different education, different family and upbringing.
Some of my core values are independence, self reliance, charity, forgiveness, hard work, and prudence. I live very modestly but comfortably enough and I got this life because of my upbringing and my own hard work and believe that others can also despite probably having more challenging upbringings. My ancestors immigrated in the early 1900s looking for a better life, chasing the so called American dream, worked as miners in small company owned houses. The first generation was very poor, but subsequent generations have done ok.
I believe that we should live as though we control our own futures, and mostly we do. Our own happiness and contentment in life is at our control, and outside factors beyond our control are not worth compromising on that happiness. It’s very similar to ancient stoic philosophy.
I teach my kids the value of hard work, saving money, but giving to less fortunate people. I provide for them, but with few luxuries. If they want something, they need to earn it and get it for themselves. They cannot expect things from other people, but should be thankful and appreciative when others help them, which in turn should inspire them to want to help others.
It is my biggest and most important duty to provide for my family and instill in them my own core values.
I believe that the United States is a great place to raise a family, providing an environment where they can succeed and be free to pursue their own contentment in life.
At the moment I’m having a hard time finding a political team that fits these values, since politics is so focused on hot button issues that serve more to divide people than to actually improve everyone’s lives. I’d love it if there were more teams, but the system we have more or less works.