A socialist state represents the vast majority of the people
That is correct, in theory. In practice all the people from socialist states who I met in person and asked about it, did not feel represented at all, on the contrary, they hated socialism, primarily for the very low quality of life and instead they hyped american capitalism because of the abundance of consumer products it generates. It was quite a surprise for me as a young and naive, politically left person but who am I to argue with people who actually have the real life experience of living in a socialist state.
As long as classes exist, a state will exist, and that state will naturally have a monopoly on what is (legally) allowed to be published
If that statement is based on the assumption that there are still classes in socialist states too, I fully agree with it.
As long as classes exist, a state will exist, and that state will naturally have a monopoly on what is (legally) allowed to be published
If that statement is based on the assumption that there are still classes in socialist states too, I fully agree with it.
It’s actually based on the opposite. Marx discussed this in depth and Lenin clarified and expanded on it in State and Revolution, which is honestly a must read and is really quite brief and a lot of fun to read.
The state arises from class antagonisms. The state is a means with which one class oppresses the others. The withering away of the state can only be achieved by reducing and ultimately eliminating classes and thus the class antagonisms which gave rise to the state in the first place.
What a nascent socialist state must do therefore, is establish the working class as the dominant class, and work to eliminate class antagonisms through, among other things, the elimination of private property and the class it creates. Preventing reactionaries from having a platform is one of the tools a state can and must use to help achieve this goal, just as the violent silencing of the working class in capitalist regimes is a tool used to maintain the hegemony of the capitalist class.
That all sounds good and I believed it myself until I talked to workers who actually lived in socialism/communism. I asked people from Poland and Vietnam about it and they all agreed on hating their lives in a non capitalist country and hyped american capitalism. I was shocked and surprised but that is what they told me. Of course asking a few people is not representative at all but it for sure changed my view to hear it from people who actually experienced it.
I talked to a native Chinese woman who said that China is not a communist country.
… while her family worked for a state owned corporation, retired at 55, has amazing medical insurance, and is receiving a pension three times their salary.
She also claimed that there’s a lot of competition for jobs in state owned companies because they pay a lot more, have more stable employment, and better benefits than privately owned companies.
… while saying that China is successful because they transitioned to a free market economy with minimal gov intervention.
Like… yes, it’s important to get others opinions. But… also understand that the people you ask… may not have the full picture.
Most people who actually lived in Eastern Europe during the socialist years still say life was better back then, even considering the capitalist road “market reforms” of the 80s.
Current socialist nations show overwhelming popular support for the way their countries are run, even as per polls by western institutions.
I have also heard about the horrors of socialism from plenty of eastern Europeans. Most weren’t born until the nineties, the decade of capitalist looting of their countries after the socialist states were illegally overthrown. Others were just children when the wall fell.
Of course some hype US capitalism, the US has spent and continues to spend unbelievable sums propagandizing people on the idea that consumerist capitalism is the holy grail. Unlimited quantities of consumer goods was for example the only thing US vassal West Germany could show to the revolutionary East and say “hey look life is better here,” so that’s what they did. Then the west annexed the east and the easterners found out pretty quick it was all just lies.
I don’t know if you’re aware, but there are plenty of people living in capitalist countries who hate their jobs. And what’s more, there are plenty of people who can’t even get any jobs and are forced to live in horrific conditions.
I don´t doubt that at all, I live in a capitalist country myself and have hated all my jobs with very few exceptions. However, it came as a surprise to me that when I congratulated a Vietnamese dude on Vietnamese independence day, to hear from him that he would have preferred the US to win the war because he thought then his life would have been better. That kind of experience is what I was trying to express.
I mean there is a selection bias at play here. People who left Vietnam to US were the ones who were already biased against communism to start with. You’d have to go and talk to people who actually live and work in Vietnam today to get an idea of what a typical person in Vietnam thinks. If you look at the happiness index report for 2023, Vietnam has climbed 12 places, so clearly life satisfaction continues to improve for majority of the people.
I mean there is a selection bias at play here. People who left Vietnam (…) were the ones who were already biased against communism to start with.
Good point in general, however the particular dude had moved to Europe and not that long before I talked to him, which was about five years ago, so I would guess he spent most of his life in Vietnam but you are probably right in assuming that he wasn’t a communist.
Like I said, you’ll find people who are unhappy in every society. We don’t have utopias in the real world. I think the focus needs to be on whether a society is working for majority of people, and whether the progress appears to be moving in a positive direction. That’s really the best we can hope for.
In practice all the people from socialist states who I met in person and asked about it, did not feel represented at all, on the contrary, they hated socialism, primarily for the very low quality of life and instead they hyped american capitalism because of the abundance of consumer products it generates
Who were these people? Did they grow up and work during the socialist period in the country/countries in question? Were their parents workers or capitalists? It’s easy to find someone from any socialist or previously socialist country who will denounce its government, either for legitimate reasons, out of ignorance, or for personal gain. We have people on this instance who live/lived in a socialist country, with a very different perspective
If that statement is based on the assumption that there are still classes in socialist states too, I fully agree with it.
When contemporary Marxists use the term “socialism”, we’re not referring to communism, which is classless and therefore stateless by definition. Communism has never been implemented, and cannot be implemented as long as imperialism remains a threat. Classes remain in every socialist country (Cuba, China, the DPRK, Vietnam, and Laos), and they will exist for the foreseeable future. The fundamental difference between a socialist state and a capitalist state is which class they represent
Did they grow up and work during the socialist period in the country/countries in question?
Yes, they did.
Were their parents workers or capitalists?
Workers
We have people on this instance who live/lived in a socialist country, with a very different perspective
I don´t doubt that, individual perspectives differ. Especially regarding the example of Cuba and it´s history it´s totally believable, considering how people had to live there under US American colonization until the revolution. However a lot of Cubans also decide to leave Cuba because of the living conditions socialism created and I am not talking about the Bacardi family but the poor people who swim to Florida on an old inner tube.
When contemporary Marxists use the term “socialism”, we’re not referring to communism, which is classless and therefore stateless by definition. Communism has never been implemented, and cannot be implemented as long as imperialism remains a threat. Classes remain in every socialist country (Cuba, China, the DPRK, Vietnam, and Laos), and they will exist for the foreseeable future. The fundamental difference between a socialist state and a capitalist state is which class they represent
Thank you for the elaboration! This definition makes sense to me and I agree with it.
However a lot of Cubans also decide to leave Cuba because of the living conditions socialism created
Socialism in Cuba did not worsen living conditions by any metric. The reason for harsh living conditions during the special period was the dissolution of its biggest trading partner (the USSR) and the disgusting blockade enforced by the US, which continues to this day. Socialism is the reason why Cubans has far better access to education, healthcare, housing, etc. compared to people in most capitalist countries; imperialism is the reason why Cuba has been unable to thrive, and the fact that it’s survived and is doing relatively well despite the ongoing genocide is a testament to the superiority of socialism
The reason for harsh living conditions during the special period was the dissolution of its biggest trading partner (the USSR) and the disgusting blockade enforced by the US, which continues to this day.
You are right, the trade blockades are the main reason for the economic situation in Cuba. I knew that already and I wonder why I did not remember it in this context. Thank you for reminding me.
In practice, when they transition to a capitalist system, their conditions ended up being worse off, and wanted to transition back.
They wanted the security provided by communism and the luxuries from capitalism. But they soon found out that the ability to make a living is much more important than purchasing luxury goods
As Parenti said, capitalism achieved in 5 years what communism couldn’t achieve in 50; make communism look good.
In practice, when they transition to a capitalist system, their conditions ended up being worse off, and wanted to transition back.
Yes, for example I have read that this is a known phenomenon in older generations among the population of the former GDR. Sadly the younger generations in eastern Germany instead often show the opposite reaction to their shitty life in capitalism and turn into neonazis.
They wanted the security provided by communism and the luxuries from capitalism. But they soon found out that the ability to make a living is much more important than purchasing luxury goods
I´m sure that for a lot of people it is like that. However, I will also never forget the polish people I talked to who hated communism and hyped capitalism, while their living conditions in capitalism were obviously fucking horrible. I lived with them and there were moments when I could not believe I was still in an EU country. On the other hand we should also consider that the state of Poland as it is today is a result of both political systems.
As Parenti said, capitalism achieved in 5 years what communism couldn’t achieve in 50; make communism look good.
That is correct, in theory. In practice all the people from socialist states who I met in person and asked about it, did not feel represented at all, on the contrary, they hated socialism, primarily for the very low quality of life and instead they hyped american capitalism because of the abundance of consumer products it generates. It was quite a surprise for me as a young and naive, politically left person but who am I to argue with people who actually have the real life experience of living in a socialist state.
If that statement is based on the assumption that there are still classes in socialist states too, I fully agree with it.
It’s actually based on the opposite. Marx discussed this in depth and Lenin clarified and expanded on it in State and Revolution, which is honestly a must read and is really quite brief and a lot of fun to read.
The state arises from class antagonisms. The state is a means with which one class oppresses the others. The withering away of the state can only be achieved by reducing and ultimately eliminating classes and thus the class antagonisms which gave rise to the state in the first place.
What a nascent socialist state must do therefore, is establish the working class as the dominant class, and work to eliminate class antagonisms through, among other things, the elimination of private property and the class it creates. Preventing reactionaries from having a platform is one of the tools a state can and must use to help achieve this goal, just as the violent silencing of the working class in capitalist regimes is a tool used to maintain the hegemony of the capitalist class.
That all sounds good and I believed it myself until I talked to workers who actually lived in socialism/communism. I asked people from Poland and Vietnam about it and they all agreed on hating their lives in a non capitalist country and hyped american capitalism. I was shocked and surprised but that is what they told me. Of course asking a few people is not representative at all but it for sure changed my view to hear it from people who actually experienced it.
I talked to a native Chinese woman who said that China is not a communist country.
… while her family worked for a state owned corporation, retired at 55, has amazing medical insurance, and is receiving a pension three times their salary.
She also claimed that there’s a lot of competition for jobs in state owned companies because they pay a lot more, have more stable employment, and better benefits than privately owned companies.
… while saying that China is successful because they transitioned to a free market economy with minimal gov intervention.
Like… yes, it’s important to get others opinions. But… also understand that the people you ask… may not have the full picture.
Of course they might not, that is only natural
Most people who actually lived in Eastern Europe during the socialist years still say life was better back then, even considering the capitalist road “market reforms” of the 80s.
Current socialist nations show overwhelming popular support for the way their countries are run, even as per polls by western institutions.
I have also heard about the horrors of socialism from plenty of eastern Europeans. Most weren’t born until the nineties, the decade of capitalist looting of their countries after the socialist states were illegally overthrown. Others were just children when the wall fell.
Of course some hype US capitalism, the US has spent and continues to spend unbelievable sums propagandizing people on the idea that consumerist capitalism is the holy grail. Unlimited quantities of consumer goods was for example the only thing US vassal West Germany could show to the revolutionary East and say “hey look life is better here,” so that’s what they did. Then the west annexed the east and the easterners found out pretty quick it was all just lies.
I don’t know if you’re aware, but there are plenty of people living in capitalist countries who hate their jobs. And what’s more, there are plenty of people who can’t even get any jobs and are forced to live in horrific conditions.
I don´t doubt that at all, I live in a capitalist country myself and have hated all my jobs with very few exceptions. However, it came as a surprise to me that when I congratulated a Vietnamese dude on Vietnamese independence day, to hear from him that he would have preferred the US to win the war because he thought then his life would have been better. That kind of experience is what I was trying to express.
I mean there is a selection bias at play here. People who left Vietnam to US were the ones who were already biased against communism to start with. You’d have to go and talk to people who actually live and work in Vietnam today to get an idea of what a typical person in Vietnam thinks. If you look at the happiness index report for 2023, Vietnam has climbed 12 places, so clearly life satisfaction continues to improve for majority of the people.
Meanwhile, the situation in US is the diametric opposite https://www.bamboohr.com/resources/guides/employee-happiness-h1-2023
Good point in general, however the particular dude had moved to Europe and not that long before I talked to him, which was about five years ago, so I would guess he spent most of his life in Vietnam but you are probably right in assuming that he wasn’t a communist.
Like I said, you’ll find people who are unhappy in every society. We don’t have utopias in the real world. I think the focus needs to be on whether a society is working for majority of people, and whether the progress appears to be moving in a positive direction. That’s really the best we can hope for.
Reasonable take, I just wish social evolution was faster.
Who were these people? Did they grow up and work during the socialist period in the country/countries in question? Were their parents workers or capitalists? It’s easy to find someone from any socialist or previously socialist country who will denounce its government, either for legitimate reasons, out of ignorance, or for personal gain. We have people on this instance who live/lived in a socialist country, with a very different perspective
When contemporary Marxists use the term “socialism”, we’re not referring to communism, which is classless and therefore stateless by definition. Communism has never been implemented, and cannot be implemented as long as imperialism remains a threat. Classes remain in every socialist country (Cuba, China, the DPRK, Vietnam, and Laos), and they will exist for the foreseeable future. The fundamental difference between a socialist state and a capitalist state is which class they represent
Workers, in construction and gastronomy.
Yes, they did.
Workers
I don´t doubt that, individual perspectives differ. Especially regarding the example of Cuba and it´s history it´s totally believable, considering how people had to live there under US American colonization until the revolution. However a lot of Cubans also decide to leave Cuba because of the living conditions socialism created and I am not talking about the Bacardi family but the poor people who swim to Florida on an old inner tube.
Thank you for the elaboration! This definition makes sense to me and I agree with it.
Socialism in Cuba did not worsen living conditions by any metric. The reason for harsh living conditions during the special period was the dissolution of its biggest trading partner (the USSR) and the disgusting blockade enforced by the US, which continues to this day. Socialism is the reason why Cubans has far better access to education, healthcare, housing, etc. compared to people in most capitalist countries; imperialism is the reason why Cuba has been unable to thrive, and the fact that it’s survived and is doing relatively well despite the ongoing genocide is a testament to the superiority of socialism
You are right, the trade blockades are the main reason for the economic situation in Cuba. I knew that already and I wonder why I did not remember it in this context. Thank you for reminding me.
In practice, when they transition to a capitalist system, their conditions ended up being worse off, and wanted to transition back.
They wanted the security provided by communism and the luxuries from capitalism. But they soon found out that the ability to make a living is much more important than purchasing luxury goods
As Parenti said, capitalism achieved in 5 years what communism couldn’t achieve in 50; make communism look good.
Yes, for example I have read that this is a known phenomenon in older generations among the population of the former GDR. Sadly the younger generations in eastern Germany instead often show the opposite reaction to their shitty life in capitalism and turn into neonazis.
I´m sure that for a lot of people it is like that. However, I will also never forget the polish people I talked to who hated communism and hyped capitalism, while their living conditions in capitalism were obviously fucking horrible. I lived with them and there were moments when I could not believe I was still in an EU country. On the other hand we should also consider that the state of Poland as it is today is a result of both political systems.
Good one! lol