Let’s say better late than never.

  • andros_rex@lemmy.world
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    7 days ago

    I need people to pay attention to the popularity of denial of the mass killings by Nazis of transgender people. One of the doctors who performed the first vaginoplasty, on Dora Richter, did also go on to participate in brutal abuses in a concentration camp. Like a dung beetle, a group is rolling around this tiny kernel of truth, coalescing in a ball of shit that ends up like this.

    There’s something so vile about this. It has to be deliberate.

    DuckDuckGo and Google have always had at least one denialist result in every single Google search I have made about the Holocaust. Back in 2010 - in high school, I remember reading half of a book online which seemed to be the memoirs of an American World War 2 soldier, than abruptly realizing that he was starting to say some really strange things. Never anything quite wrong, but off. I did a little googling, a bit more research, and then started running into names like David Irving.

    It’s just such a damn difficult problem to fix. They are insidious. Deniers know that the Holocaust happened. They know that trans people were brutalized and massacred by the Nazis, whether you feel like the “purpose” of the mass killings makes it a genocide or not.

    They don’t care. They want stupid people to believe it, because then you can get the stupid people to look the other way. To laugh at people pointing out the patterns.

    • barsoap@lemm.ee
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      7 days ago

      One of the doctors who performed the first vaginoplasty, on Dora Richter, did also go on to participate in brutal abuses in a concentration camp.

      TIL, design of the freezing experiments and he later wrote on them. Worked at the Charité at the time of doing the vaginaplasty, from what I can tell seems to have been a star surgeon. Surgery attracts psychopaths, he probably could not give less of a fuck about the ethics of anything but was interested in the technical aspects. Dora Richter’s surgery was a joint effort with Ludwig Levy-Lenz, generally credited as the father of sex reassignment surgery and working at the Hirschfeld Institute itself. Not terribly surprising they collaborated with the Charité on a novel procedure, it was and is one of the very best hospitals in the world. Not indicted in the Doctor’s trials, you probably do not want to read up on what those people did. I’m serious.

  • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
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    6 days ago

    This is coming from a currently far-right + hard capitalist government so I’m wary of how truthful this news is

  • scarabic@lemmy.world
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    6 days ago

    I seriously believe that in an adult society you can set one or two historically damaging things aside from “freedom of speech.” I believe it was Trevor Noah who explained that when black people took back South Africa from its apartheid masters, they didn’t burn those people at the stake or prosecute them out of existence or even steal all their property. They just said you won’t be ruling this country like that anymore OH and that ONE WORD… you don’t get to say that ONE WORD ever again.

  • Lovable Sidekick@lemmy.world
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    7 days ago

    It’s too bad we can’t make being a fucking idiot illegal, but then there wouldn’t be anywhere near enough prisons.

  • SocialMediaRefugee@lemmy.world
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    7 days ago

    Censorship just hides it. Better would be to educate them. Make them meet with survivors, send them to the remaining concentration camps.

    • Banana@sh.itjust.works
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      7 days ago

      I don’t know if this is really censorship in that way. Like yeah don’t hide the genocide, hide the denial, because it doesn’t deserve a platform. Holocaust denial has no basis in reality, especially considering it’s one of the most well documented genocides of all time.

      Don’t censor history, teach the children about all the bad shit humans have done.

      • shadowplay@lemmy.wtf
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        7 days ago

        Holocaust denialism is censorship. It’s an attempt to hide reality itself by controlling the narrative. If anything, outlawing holocaust denialism is anti-censorship, as it’s helping ensure that Nazis won’t be able to suppress the truth about what happened.

        Someone claiming that outlawing holocaust denialism is censorship is trying to flip the script and overwrite reality (or just repeating someone else who is doing so, I guess). It’s like saying “Hey! Stop censoring my attempt to censor others! This is censorship!” It’s a mind game, an attempt at manipulation through deception. Look up the term DARVO: Deny, Accuse, Reverse Victim and Offender. That’s what saying “Outlawing holocaust denialism is censorship!” is: Reversing the Victim and Offender.

        Lies and misinformation and other attempts to deceive and suppress the truth are not a form of free speech. Quite the opposite, they’re what results when free speech remains unprotected.

    • 0x0@lemmy.zip
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      7 days ago

      There aren’t that many survivors left, but you wouldn’t know judging by the noise some jewish.groups make while clamoring for reparation.

      This is effective censorship – of a bad thing, but still censorship.

      Education is the way, don’t let people forget history, remind them of all the horrors the nazi regime inflicted on gays, gypsies, political dissidents, criples, … Remind them genocides are still occurring: in Palestine and elsewhere.

    • MisterOwl@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      I’m sure they have problems like everywhere else, but I would emigrate there in a heartbeat if I could afford it and if they’d let me.

    • Dasus@lemmy.world
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      7 days ago

      Is Finland just as based as I think it i

      No, we’re not. There’s a lot of good, and definitely very good in comparison to a lot of other, or even most other countries, but I daresay there are certain problems of our own.

      While the systems are all great on paper, reality doesn’t always conform.

      I was abused by the police in a manner that I think actually would reach the bar of international crime, as they even cut off my water at one point. I was denied my prescription medication and went psychotic for days on end in a jail cell, while “under supervision for my safety”. I was literally drawing on the walls with my own blood. I didn’t eat. They didn’t care. Now whatever the motivation, the conditions I was kept in and the treatment I got would, I argue, constitute an international crime.

      I’ve yet to find a single Finn who doesn’t immediately challenge me when I say that, and then I show proof, they deny it, and I have not gotten a single person to explain to me how on Earth it would be possible for me to self-harm so badly while “under supervision” and why I was not given my medications and fucking urgent medical assistance? I still have scars on my arms and fingers and that was several years ago. Even just according to the Finnish laws, permanent physical harm would constitute a grievous assault, when done on another person. And since I wouldn’t have done that if I weren’t being treated that way (in a cell without a single word to anyone, no knowledge of my rights, which I have a right to hold a physical copy all the time during detainment, lights on all the time, no mattress, no bed, no blanket). The guard even taunted me several times over the radio.

      Finns will deny this, just like all the Finnish authorities did. And thus if I can manage to prove that it was actually internationally criminal, then anyone denying it would be a criminal under this law, which sounds kinda nice.

      Anyway, the point is that we’re not a utopian democracy, we’re a somewhat socially secure bureaucracy. Like yeah we don’t really have anyone living on the streets, people usually get enough to eat, so “can’t complain”, but that’s just it. Having some things be well doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t strive to improve the things which aren’t.

      Personally, Finland is a great country, but all countries are flawed in one way or another. There’s no utopia anywhere.

      Also the thing about Finns being introverts is not even an exaggeration. It’d be a massive understatement to say we’re emotionally reserved and generally avoidant.

      • boredtortoise@lemm.ee
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        6 days ago

        I’ve yet to find a single Finn who doesn’t immediately challenge me when I say that

        Here’s one who doesn’t challenge. The police do a lot of bastard shit here. At least this one whistleblower blog ended up in the news but nothing is being done to fix that system.

        • Dasus@lemmy.world
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          6 days ago

          Yeah, exactly, nothing is being done. And people are actively ignoring it, which only perpetuates the situation.

          Thanks for the link though I might email those HS reporters

      • Shootingstarrz17@lemmy.world
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        6 days ago

        I’m so sorry for everything you’ve gone through, this sounds horrendous. But thank you for enlightening me, I know mostly nothing about Finland personally. I hope you’re doing better now though, and as someone who’s been through abuse as well, it’s tough, but in the end, we can get through this. I’m not really good at talks like this, sorry if it’s bad, but just know that I’m rooting for you. It will get better. 🙂

        • Dasus@lemmy.world
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          6 days ago

          I’m not really good at talks like this, sorry

          1000% more supportive than any Finn I’ve ever met, including my family.

          So yeah, compared to them you’re a fucking master, mate.

          That is very meaningful to me, thank you a lot. People ignoring it is what really gets me, not the personal experience. (It’s not the first time I’ve been in a psychosis due to insomnia/other factors, but when I’ve my meds at home, I don’t end up eating myself.)

          I am doing better, yes. Maybe not exactly well yet, but …

          • Shootingstarrz17@lemmy.world
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            6 days ago

            You are very welcome, I’m glad you’re doing better. And yeah, people can be awful, but you’ll find people who will be supportive, even if it’s just a few. My dogs help me personally, they know how to get me out of depression funks.

            • Dasus@lemmy.world
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              6 days ago

              but you’ll find people who will be supportive, even if it’s just a few

              Seeing as I’m 36 and yet to find such a creature who I’m not paying hundreds an hour to listen to me trauma dump… I’d like to politely advice you to not use any definite sentence on what I will or will not find.

              I would love a dog, I’ve had many as a kid. None from pup to gone though. My grandmas sofa wasn’t older than me, then when we got our own dog when I was 12, he got ran over by a truck (and I saw it very close, and picked him up after he was driven over by a full semi tire). Then our next dog was done which was a sort of rescue, but from a trainer. He was my best friend ever.

              I’ve cried more over my dead dogs than I ever have for any relatives.

              So yeah, I’d like to get a dog, but as I live in a bedsit and am kinda depressed, I don’t know whether I’d be justified in taking a dog… There’s better homes for pups to go to.

              • Shootingstarrz17@lemmy.world
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                5 days ago

                I’m sorry about that, I can be overly optimistic sometimes. And I’m sorry you had to witness that, especially at such a young age, losing pets is awful. I’ve lost many myself too, I get it. But I hope your depression improves, I know it can be really tough. Again, I wish I had better advice to give. I just hope that I could make your day a little better at least.

                • Dasus@lemmy.world
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                  5 days ago

                  I just hope that I could make your day a little better at least.

                  Thank for the empathy. I can’t overstate just how meaningful even a slightly empathic message can be. I’m grateful.

                  Honestly, like had the guards had 1% of that empathy, I would’ve never been abused like I was. And Finland wouldn’t be as ass if the general population did as well.

                  Edit who the fuck is downvoting you lol

  • Doctor_Satan@lemm.ee
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    6 days ago

    There are about 2,500 Sudanese immigrants in Finland. Why not have a law criminalizing the Darfur genocide too? Or better yet, how about a law against denying any genocide in the furtherance of hate speech?

    Unfortunately, I think I know the answer to these questions. I suspect it’s related to the fact that Finland does not recognize the Palestinian state, unlike their neighbors in Norway, Sweden, and Iceland. A law criminalizing the denial of any genocide in the furtherance of hate speech would end up legally including the genocide in Palestine as soon as a case lands in a Finnish court. At that point, it would be really hard to defend their one-sided support of Israel, and lack of Palestinian state recognition.

  • LeninOnAPrayer@lemm.ee
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    6 days ago

    Is this tacked on with a bunch of other laws related to criticism of Zionism also being against the law?

    Tons of laws Israel is trying to get passed in western countries to associate anti Zionism with Antisemitism.

    I doubt this is the only part of the law.

    • bigboismith@lemmy.world
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      6 days ago

      No this law only outlaws denying recognized genocides by the international court and in a hateful way.