I was talking to one of my friends and he mentioned staying home on July 4, citing how there are a lot of really ugly things going on in the US.
After thinking about this myself, I’m starting to feel the same way. Instead of being proud of the country, I’m feeling like I’m just another wallet that companies and the government are trying to suck all the money out of.
The cost of living is going up, the housing market is a nightmare, I don’t feel very confident in our government at all, the job market is a nightmare…
I think I’ll be staying home this year too… anyone else?
I’m a USAF vet. My ancestors literally fought in the revolutionary war, and signed The Declaration of Independence. I’m going through the motions this year, but I don’t feel it at all. I’m pissed that we’re multiple stages into a nazi regime. I’m profoundly flabbergasted at how anyone could be for this. How anyone that is for it, can’t see that they’re going to be the “out” party. Some already are seeing it.
I’m incredibly disappointed that the news has gotten so out of touch that they just rolled over and lapped up the rhetoric. Local news is all sunshine and rainbows while ICE kidnaps people, and a corrupt POtuS breaks the constitution left and right. While he deploys military against its own citizens. While rights are stripped, aided by a corrupt SCOTUS. While the rich get richer off of our backs. While the checks and balances are obliterated.
stop “going through the motions,” then? do something?? anything???
idk tbh anytime i see someone act as surprised as you are at this point it’s someone who believed, strongly, in the noble lies fed to us. i don’t mean to judge you pointedly, but knowing you’re an air force vet… doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in the counterpoint to that opinion.
i came from a family with a lot of military brats so im confident in saying 99% of people who enlist are either doing so out of economic desperation (aka coercion) or they’re dumb enough to believe the shit the recruiters/propoganda/government spew. if i offend… that’s fine. i have respect for the trauma, both physical and mental, that vets have gone through but i think you guys aren’t just cogs in a machine and are morally culpable for what you’re involved in doing. i respect the people on an individual basis, but spit on the org as a whole.
anyway idk not to babble on and on but point being maybe the euros are right when they say none of us have the balls to do what needs to be done. people won’t even say what needs to be said because they fear losing their jobs and careers due to corporate, dystopic surveillance of their every word. it’s the most milquetoast acceptance of literal fascism in history and your comment and the behavior you espouse is exactly why they’re able to do it.
don’t get me wrong, i’m not casting stones. i am not without sin either. i’m sitting here shitposting on the internet instead of marching. i’m also part of the problem; but it’s time we start calling it out instead of getting offended at the notion we are just letting it happen.
people won’t even say what needs to be said because they fear losing their jobs and careers due to corporate, dystopic surveillance of their every word.
in this spirit i’ll be the first to say. fuck ice. i won’t self-police myself for thought crime anymore. the first chance i get to kill an ice agent im taking, and every true fucking patriot should feel the same. it’s time to water the tree of liberty, man.
If you want to be effective at changing the system, killing random ICE Nazis won’t do it. Everyone here is advocating peaceful protest, but that also won’t do it - or at least, not by itself.
Instead, consider direct action - sabotage of the means of production that prop up the fascist state.
Take a listen to Rev Left’s interview with Palestine Action to learn what I’m talking about: https://revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/size/5/?search=Palestine+action
I find the bit about believing the lies we’re fed as somewhat naive. We’re all on a journey, and everyone starts in a different place, with unique foundations.
My current opinions vary wildly from those held 20 years ago. Change is a good thing, and I think it should be expected as the norm.
I see where you’re at. I take no offense. I definitely could be doing more. I can’t work either, so it isn’t like I don’t have the time. Physical issues are my only real hold back. My enlistment was fear of being trapped in an abusive home, as well as feeling like high school didn’t offer enough of an education to prepare me. We both have the luxury of doing what we’re doing.
However, I offer a few counter points.
What does killing 1 ICE “officer” accomplish? How does that affect change in the right direction? Does this cause others to do the same and follow suit?
We need more that I don’t think we’re at the point of accomplishing yet. We need a full on civil war. One that I’m not sure how we get to kick off, all at the same time, all across the nation, without it fizzling out quickly.
The problem then comes in how to coordinate that. How do we communicate, nation wide, in a way that is not vulnerable to monitoring and disruption by the very place we’re trying to change? How do we coordinate arming and supplies? How do we coordinate movements and operations?
We can’t stop at just POtuS either. 99% of it needs to go. Dem leadership has been largely sitting on the bloody nubs that they try to “reach across the aisle” with. SCOTUS and most all other courts are compromised. Plus the billionaires, the behind the scenes assholes, and even state and local governments. It all needs a clean sweep.
We have too comfortable of a life. We’re too complacent. We were too far removed from the fascism that spilled over in Europe. We were too padded. It didn’t really hit us, in either world war, back here. Our troops came back home and went back to regular life as usual. We had a civil war, but we didn’t punish any of the perpetrators. That led us right back where we’re at. At the time though, you could survive on your own. Support a family off of the land. There wasn’t much of an infrastructure. There was no pain to be felt by the general populace (loss of life aside).
I do think we’ll get to full on armed conflict. I feel as though mid terms will be the kicker. I just don’t know if armed conflict is where we’re at yet. Not that I don’t think we should be. It’s that the general populace is too comfortable. We, apparently, need our lives to hurt more. To be affected more. Is it sad? Absolutely. Is it very much against everything that the founding fathers envisioned, especially when drafting up the 2nd? Absolutely. They would be completely disgusted with all of us. Myself included.
The fix is not killing ICE officers.
The civil rights movements of the 60s, Jim Crow, etc, won by being willing to be beaten. By voluntarily entering a cafe and sitting there waiting to be served like a human being, meanwhile being willing to be called names, dropped food and drinks onto them, burnt with cigarettes, abused.
That willingness and perseverance in wanting to be recognised as the human beings they are awoke the rest of the population.
Pacifist demonstrations and matches are a way to achieve that. They are displays for your fellow colleagues, not for the government you want to depose. Make clear that they are pacifist. Prepare and inform the people going. Sit down if you are charged. Stop violent people there. Etc. Make obvious that the fascist are fascists that way and say and invigorate people to your side.
The first act that started the Tunisian “Arab Spring” was just one street seller being killed by the police.
There is no “correct” spark. And nobody knows what will spark a war until it has happened.
Maybe some guy that gets shot by ICE, maybe some guy that kills an ICE thug, maybe something else.
I agree with most everything you said here, it’s a good analysis. Sorry for being a bit of a reactionary this morning. Not sure why I was on such a shit-slinging vibe earlier but I’m willing to own up to it.
What does killing 1 ICE “officer” accomplish? How does that affect change in the right direction? Does this cause others to do the same and follow suit?
We need more that I don’t think we’re at the point of accomplishing yet. We need a full on civil war. One that I’m not sure how we get to kick off, all at the same time, all across the nation, without it fizzling out quickly.
I would see a civil war, or something like it, as the first “real,” and rational opportunity for an individual to kill an ICE agent. In my mind, doing so as a sort of lonewolf is so absurdly stupid as to not be considerable but I understand that’s probably not a reasonable take these days anymore when it comes to discourse in the commons. Therein is the sociopolitical paradox you mentioned about what actually sparks the powderkeg. In short, I think we’re saying about the same thing in principle, I’m just an edgelord before noon I guess lmao.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, I always appreciate discourse. Meet all sorts of cool people on lemmy. Hope life has more in store for you, for all of us. Good luck!
Absolutely no shade my friend. I am absolutely as pissed off as you are. I really wish it would make a difference. Many of us do. It just isn’t quite there yet. The stew is close, we just need the vegetables to get ready.
I love the discourse as well. We don’t get a feel for everyone’s feelings towards things when we don’t. Others may even bring up things we hadn’t thought about, or an angle we didn’t see.
Good luck to you as well!
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Not being American I always found the whole thing very creepy. Like, North Korean military parade-creepy.
For the record, we don’t have anything like that where I’m from, but the closest things we do have are also very creepy. Patriotism in general is extremely not cool, honestly.
I screencapped this many moons ago on Reddit, I feel that it’s apropos
The USA started cracking at the foundations when McCarthyism began, demonizing an ideology that was ultimately about sharing resources. You can draw a straight line between the Red Scare and the anti-socialism proudly shouted by modern Republicans and the MAGA movement today.
For anyone who identifies as conservative, this rabid vilification of socialism has rotted away at even the idea that the government should exist to service the people, let alone advocating for it. So instead they advocate for tearing it all apart and hold firm to the ‘rugged individialism’, “the Free Market © will provide” nonsense that has never worked as far back in history as we can peer.
Its so toxic, and it serves only the most wealthy. It’s gone so far and for so long now that I don’t see the lessons being learnt and course correcting with words alone.
It’s rooted in all that “American Exceptionalism” propaganda crap, for sure.
As an American I never really liked the holiday, (I agree patriotism sucks) but I wouldn’t say it’s that it really feels creepy other than the few people who really go over the top with it. Most people just use it as an excuse to barbeque and watch / light off fireworks (which I’m just personally not into)
Now for some real North Korea shit, look up videos of the “pledge of allegiance“ in schools. I was always the only one not doing it, but it wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized how fucked up it is. Creepy as hell.
Now for some real North Korea shit, look up videos of the “pledge of allegiance“ in schools. I was always the only one not doing it, but it wasn’t until I was an adult that I realized how fucked up it is. Creepy as hell.
America and North Korea aren’t alone in some kind of pledge for the country, are we? I have a memory of Chinese students doing the same type of thing, but I’m not entirely sure.
From a quick search it looks like India, Nigeria, Singapore, and the Philippines do as well.
Other countries may have pledges of some sort for special occasions or for new citizens. But having a flag in every classroom that children chant to each morning is not normal.
Over here the only similar events I can think of are related to joining the military and taking elected office. And there was significant legal arguing about the last one, to the point where opt-outs and strict limitations were added.
Look up why the pledge was incorporated in the first place. It was a scheme to sell small American flags and the pledge was made up to go with the flags. Once it was implemented in the classroom - profits were staggering. There was a SCOTUS ruling years ago that the pledge does NOT have to be done in the classroom, but most still do. I do not partake in my classroom and do not tell kids that have to. I do however tell the kids to be respectfully quiet while others do (if they wish).
I appreciate that you don’t tell kids that they have to participate, but honestly, even telling the others to be “respectfully quiet” seems a bit odd to me.
A democratic state is something you pledge allegiance to by actively participating, by making use of your democratic rights and by putting energy into building and shaping the system we all live in. That’s what democracy is meant to be, a system of all people working together and valuing the needs and opinions of others, working out the best solutions for everyone through discourse. It’s not a religion or a god that you pray to in silence, that’s a bit absurd, isn’t it?
“And valuing the needs and opinions of others” isn’t that exactly what I am doing by asking my students to respect that others can say the pledge if they want to? As much as I feel I don’t have a right to tell a kid to say the pledge - I would be a hypocrite if I told kids they couldn’t.
Yeah, I get that, and I think this is somehow a cultural difference. I didn’t mean to tell you that’s not what you’re supposed to do, sorry if it came across like that. I just thought it was interesting that to me, the whole idea of saying the pledge seems so strange, it reminds me of saying a prayer, and that somehow doesn’t match my understanding of a democratic system. I’m from Germany, by the way. We grow up with a very different relationship to our state compared to the US. I think it changed a bit in recent years (and I’m a bit undecided whether that’s a good thing or not), but when I was a kid, basically only nationalists and neonazis waved the German flag (that changed with the soccer worldcup in Germany in 2006). My school curriculum was filled with the crimes of the Third Reich, and I think what I took away from that was to never just worship or even trust a state or government just because it’s you own, because it may actually be or turn evil. And that it’s your responsibility as a citizen to not let that happen. Of course I do feel connected to my country and my culture, but I’m just very unfamiliar with the kind of connection that (many) Americans seem to have with their country. Again, I’m not trying to say it’s wrong per se, but to feel such an emotional connection to a democratic state that is meant to be shaped by the people for the people does feel feel a bit off to me, in the sense maybe that I see a risk of it leading people in a wrong direction. I don’t know. I hope that makes it a bit more understandable. I’d actually like to hear your opinion on that. Is my point of view understandable for you, or does it seem just as strange to you?
I understand completely. I personally do not say the pledge because I know where it comes from. I believe that this country is supposed to be a beacon of democracy. A government by the people for the people. I realized in my mid 40s that there are some people who still think that the POTUS is supposed to be like a king. That’s the opposite of what I learned in school (I am from New York State) and it does have me worried. I hope that we can move back that way because I agree the people are what makes a democratic type of government stronger. Our elected officials are supposed to work for us not the other way around. I fear that a great deal of them are working for corporate greed however. I teach the Holocaust in my classroom and I also teach about fascism. I look to Germany now with hope that people can survive a government that does wrong by them. In saying all of this - I am proud of the ideals that this country (and it’s flag) stand for, but in fear of being a hypocrite - I realize that one of the standards that the flag symbolizes is freedom. Freedom to say the pledge or not based on your own personal feelings and thoughts about what that flag means to you. I hope the kids are feeling proud of those ideals and not feeling nationalistic, but I need to teach them how to think and not to think like me, but to think for themselves. Peace fellow freedom chaser. I hope history keeps us allies.
Independence day celebrations are not unique to America.
In fact, the best ones are about independence from the US
Which ones are those?
Hmm let me see. True former colonies include Cuba, the Philippines and Liberia. The Panama Canal Zone. Hawaii was unceremoniously annexed, as were Guam and Puerto Rico. And a host of smaller islands.
In a broader sense, Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq are also very happy they’re once again independent from the US.
In an even broader sense, most US allies are working for independence from the unreliable US as we speak.
I was asking which countries have independence days that celebrate independence from the US.
The Philippines celebrates their independence from Spain.
Vietnam celebrates their independence from France.
I won’t bother going on, but nice try though.
Hey you weren’t supposed to know that!
We have one of those, and it’d be creepy even if historically it wasn’t debatable that the event itself was for the better.
Fair enough, I just disagree. Gaining independence seems to me like a positive thing worth celebrating. I’m happy whenever I see an ex-colony celebrating their day.
Not saying we Americans don’t take it a little far, but hey, it’s the one day where you can be patriotic without that creepy vibe.
America fought for independence from Britain because the wealth of the nation was being sucked away and spent for the whims of a handful of wealthy people, and because the people were powerless to chose who the government was. If you factor in the insane number of insanely Gerrymandered districts and significant quantities of votes going through Musk’s servers with no external scrutiny, a broken electoral college and a supreme court intent on deleting the constitution starting with section 3 of the 14th amendment (and now moving on to the rest of it), removing religious freedom, I see everything that the founding fathers fought for and everything that the civil war was fought for being stamped on by one deluded racist moron and his crazy sycophants and enablers. It was never really freedom from slavery anyway when you have such vast numbers of black men working for no wage in profiteering private prisons for decades just for smoking some pot or stealing some groceries while rich men who do drugs or steal tens of thousands get a slap on the wrist.
Yeah, well, that depends on who gained independence from whom and whether you think you’re independent now. Also on whether you’d be indepedendent from any guys who’d like to be independent from the now guys if they were to be independent.
See, political independence for a group requires that you align with the idea the group has of itself. I don’t know that I have that overlap with any particular political delineation, so I may need an organization a touch more nuanced than an independent, sovereign nation-state.
Also, gonna need some citation on the lack of creepy vibe, as mentioned above.
How many are on July 4?
Patriotism is very cool. Nationalism isn’t, which has mostly subverted the term patriot. A patriot stands up when their nation is doing something wrong. They don’t blindly believe they’re the best, they recognize that there’s things they can improve. They fight to make their country better, not to make others worse.
That’d be great if it didn’t disagree with all available evidence. For all of history patriots have been either cannon fodder or abusive tyrants. On a long enough trajectory, almost inevitably nationalists and eventually imperialists.
One could argue that, much like some flavors of political utopia, internationalism has the advantage of never having been implemented in any practical sense, so they have less of a challenge proving their positive impact, but I’ll take it anyway.
Regardless, I find that “making their country better” should be a distant second to “making the world better”, and perhaps a close third behind “making the crap you have on hand and the lives of those immediately around you better”.
Look, I am not a globalist anarchist. I believe in well structured, effective democratic governments. Maybe I was the right age to look at the EU and think that those don’t have to be held to the absurd liberal idea of the nation-state,and that wherever a collective of humans have a common interest there should be governance structured to work with other layers of organization to improve things and enforce rights within that sphere. There is nothing magical about the nation-state layer of government that makes it more spiritually attuned to identity or the needs of the people. It’s all administrative stuff as far as I’m concerned.
Regardless, I find that “making their country better” should be a distant second to “making the world better”, and perhaps a close third behind “making the crap you have on hand and the lives of those immediately around you better”.
I find this statement odd. So you think it’s best to start local, right? OK, so next from your immediate community, you should expand out, eventually to country, then to world, right? Isn’t that the logical progression. From more influence to less? Why is your priority jumping all over?
Look, I am not a globalist anarchist.
Funnily enough, I am an Anarchist. I don’t know if I’d call myself a globalist, but probably. I also believe in well structured democratic governments. Those aren’t at odds with each other.
Maybe I was the right age to look at the EU and think that those don’t have to be held to the absurd liberal idea of the nation-state,and that wherever a collective of humans have a common interest there should be governance structured to work with other layers of organization to improve things and enforce rights within that sphere. There is nothing magical about the nation-state layer of government that makes it more spiritually attuned to identity or the needs of the people. It’s all administrative stuff as far as I’m concerned.
I think we’re in agreement. This isn’t counter to what I said. I’d say it’s in unison with it. People should work to improve their governments in any way they can. They should try to reshape it to better represent them. That’s what a patriot would do, not just settle for the status quo and assume they’re the best possible version there can be.
Well, then what fatherland is the patriot beholden to?
Cause that’s what the word means.
I get it, particularly in countries where the nation state has overlapped more or less perfectly for a long time it’s hard to shed the emotional attachment, but there’s no need for it.
See, the reason I go from small to international is precisely that the nation state takes care of itself. The world has agreed that it’s the natural resting place of sovereignty and every other scale of governance or administration os derived from it. I don’t like that much. I don’t resent it, but I also don’t give it immediate precedence over any other scale of government.
A patriot may care for whatever arbitrary definition the XVIIIth century put on their identity and be well meaning enough about it. I’m not a patriot. The historical borders of what some consider a nation today have no particular relevance, beyond the fact that they happen to drive some level of administration. If anything, it’s the level where the most people decide to infringe on each other’s business just because they feel they have a right to ownership over that national identity. I have no particular interest in whitewashing any of that into some supposedly healthy version of patriotism that has very rarely existed in any way.
Well, then what fatherland is the patriot beholden to?
Cause that’s what the word means.
The land (and people), but not necessarily the state.
(The term state ahead is really annoying.)
Maybe part of it comes from being in the US, where we have a weird form of double governance of the “state” and “federal” governments. Which state are we loyal too, because they’re both ours? It makes things more malleable. The states could agree to form a totally new federal government if they wanted to.
A patriot may care for whatever arbitrary definition the XVIIIth century put on their identity and be well meaning enough about it. I’m not a patriot. The historical borders of what some consider a nation today have no particular relevance, beyond the fact that they happen to drive some level of administration.
There are multiple definitions of country. Some don’t care about the state that defines the borders. Your country is the land where you were born, not the state necessarily. One example that comes to mind in the US, which spans multiple states, is “Appalachia.” Appalachian people are a broad culture group who live in the Appalachian mountain region, and are distinct from the states they reside, and the larger US obviously. They are countrymen of each other.
I have no particular interest in whitewashing any of that into some supposedly healthy version of patriotism that has very rarely existed in any way.
No, the problem is some other people have changed the term to mean nationalist. For example, in the US, people were called patriots for fighting for the people in the colonies against the state that controlled them (Britain). They didn’t approve of the state and wanted to improve it, so they fought to change it and left the former state that was controlling them. Patriotism doesn’t have to be blind support of a state, and I’d argue that isn’t patriotism, because you aren’t defending it from bad actors/actions.
The etymology of the term is certainly much older than the nation-state, but also entirely disconnected from modern meanings (or ironic/facetious, which I do appreciate). There is just no original, clean, virtuous instance of “patriot” dislodged from the nationalist undertones. It simply has never existed.
The mistake you’re making is assuming that US revolutionaries weren’t nationalists or were praiseworthy or fundamentally different than British colonists. We’re going to disagree on that one. I mean, never mind that they didn’t invent the term or that their whitewashing of it was self-serving. Even if your timeline of events was true, I despise their patriotism as much as anybody else’s. US revolutionaries weren’t some ideal version of a patriot, they were nationalist independentists who happened to borrow some French revolutionary ideas about the liberal democratic state-nation organization slightly earlier than their previous administration did (and perhaps due to the first draft nature of the thing, slightly worse, too).
I won’t judge them by modern standards, but I also absolutely, entirely refuse to sacralize them or idealize them. They were what they were, and they are absolutely not the thing that’s going to give patriotism a good name.
You’re putting words in my mouth saying that I said American revolutionaries were great people. I never said such a thing, nor would I. Stop reading more into what I said than I actually said please.
They were people willing to lay their lives down for something they thought was worth fighting for. Not out of some ignorance that the status quo is the best option, but because they wanted to make changes to improve things for their community (and their self too, sure). That’s what patriotism is.
I’d argue that it’s necessarily not pristine. You have to be willing to get dirty. You don’t win a war with honor. You win it by killing other people until the other side isn’t fighting anymore. The same is true for any fight (not the killing necessarily, but being willing to do what needs to be done).
I just brought them up as an example of patriotism though. I’m not saying they’re a perfect example, just an example. This isn’t about the US, like you’re making it to be. You’re not arguing against the point. Your entire comment can be boiled down to “American revolutionaries are bad” but it doesn’t say really anything about patriotism.
Anyway, my point is, don’t let nationalists take the term. Maybe you don’t, but most people have positive opinions if the term. It’s easier and more useful to take the term back, because it isn’t necessarily a nationalist term. There are plenty of leftist patriots throughout history and the world. The right is good at using language as a weapon. We should be too, and we shouldn’t back off every time they try to use it.
I mean, it’s just fireworks. The US does a lot more creepy jingoistic things than fireworks. How many other nations celebrate things by scaring all the local pets? It can’t be that uncommon…
Things, yeah. National symbology, not as much.
I’ll say that I agree with you, though. Americans do way creepier stuff. The first time I attended a US sporting event it felt exactly like being trapped in some ritual for a religion I don’t understand. They may as well have been ripping off some poor guy’s still beating heart before lowering him into lava and watching it spontaneously burst into flame, for all I cared. I genuinely didn’t know what to do with myself for the entire duration of the thing.
I’ve never been to school there, either. I imagine watching a bunch of children recite their daily indoctrinations must be creepy AF. I’m not sure if it actually happens, though. It’s never in American movies.
I don’t know, it’s kind of like how people like to support their local football team. I think tribalism is somewhat ingrained in our brains. I can’t say it’s entirely logical, but it seems kind of baked-in to people at some level, like a leftover from pre-history.
Well, yeah, but so are plenty of other gross things and you don’t see me out there raiding coastal villages just because we’ve spent longer taking things from each other by force than enforcing some peaceful, democratic social contract.
To be clear, I’m not disagreeing, we have tribalism baked into us. It just happens to suck and we should strive to break past our built-in biases.
Patriotism is the little sibling of nationalism, and the boundaries are fluid. I will never understand why people are proud of other people’s accomplishments and make them their own. Or is it because people were shat on somewhere else in the world than everyone else? Makes absolutely no sense.
Patriotism can be cool, there are (I hope) many things about your nation, it’s achievements and communities that you might be proud of.
Nationalism however, not so much. They’re closely related (and bad people will try to sneak Nationalism under the radar as Patriotism) but are very different things.
I don’t know that I agree with this.
Perhaps coming from a place where the notion of “country” and “nation” don’t overlap one to one makes it easier to see. I wouldn’t really be able to tell you what “my nation” even is, and I wouldn’t have it any other way.
I respect and take pride in culture in all its diversity and complexity, in democracy and in the general sense of human decency. Screw all the so-called nations trying to get me to vouch for them as a political unit, though. Political organization is for buiding roads and hospitals, not for pride.
Our country is under MAGA Nazis rule, and that is nothing to celebrate. Independence Day should be a Day of Resistance, until the MAGA Nazis lose their control.
Because of Patriotism they had it so easy to turn it into Nationalism and now turn it to fascism.
State-level patriotism is always bullshit to begin with.
That’s how you’re tricked into loyalty based on the most arbitrary reasons.
Be the messenger of humanity and get curious about the Universe. People are brothers, and there’s no pride in being born in one plot of land over the other.
If that’s your reaction we need even more murder jets to do a fly over and the already ridiculously sized freedom flags will get even bigger!
But seriously, patriotism is an unnatural artificial and cultivated concept.
Indeed to be used by the state.The state should be you, the citizens.
The state should not exist. We are people of Earth, and we should not be divided by someone. Divided, we are powerless to make a global change, and those who divide us reap all the benefits of this bullshit system.
So we shouldn’t band together, to band together.
You should calm down your drug use IMO.
We should band together based on mutual respect and common responsibility, and not based on someone telling us who to band with and who not to.
The concept of nation-state doesn’t allow us to band with whoever we like, and calls to unite with people born in place X (and commonly against people born in place Y). The concept of state in general oversees and dictates our relationships more broadly.
Multitude of states all fostering loyalty to their rulers doesn’t allow many people to look at those of other nations as equals and fellows with shared global goals. Sure, messages of international peace are commonplace, but hey, we should definitely exclude those pesky Chinese/Russians/Americans/Ukrainians/Israelis/Palestinians/whatever!
When we categorize people by nations through the lens of state, we put easy labels that are far from true. If someone’s a Russian, he sure supports war in Ukraine. If someone’s American, he sure is personally responsible for all the immigrant scare. If someone’s born in Israel or China, clearly he’s all on board with genocide!
At the same time, state-level patriotism fosters coming to terms with terrible people within the nation. Sure, our billionaires might be at fault in some ways, but it’s better than other country’s evil and corrupt billionaires! Our rulers are wise leaders, their rulers are cruel autocrats! My neighbor is a terrible person, but at least he’s not one of those <input the nation with bad stereotypes>!
It forces us to make preference to people who may not deserve our support, who might be actively undermining our causes, it leads us to close our eyes on the sufferings of others outside our arbitrary group that doesn’t even share our views and goals.
Now, I know it doesn’t have to be that extreme, but patriotism is always showing preference to someone or something based on a very arbitrary characteristic, instead of honest and fair consideration. It’s an intentionally cultivated fallacy.
On a personal note, I’d rather avoid ad hominem attacks if you’d like to keep a good faith discussion running. And, FYI, I never take any drugs, not even alcohol.
Utopian nonsense
We can always do our best to make it closer.
Most people claim this to be Utopian, and then just try to tone it down in others, so their own compliance is not seen to themselves as weakness but rather “wisdom”. No - it is a surrender, an act of learned helplessness.
Sure, it’s hard to force politicians to abandon the concept of nations, and it’s hard to bring a revolt to a population so compliant.
But everyone can make personal steps.
First, admit that patriotism is bullshit. There is no ground to be patriotic, and nothing realistically unites you with your “nation”. You have more in common with a person of the same position on the other side of the globe than you have with the president of your very “own” country.
Second, watch your own preferences in people and what you factor in your decision. Maybe you give too much weight to where the person comes from? Is it that you label people in some way based on that characteristic alone?
Third, if you have the opportunity, form an international collective, reach out to specialists within other nations, or if you can’t, see if you can build a collective or even just a friend group with the immigrants around you.
Fourth - advocate for people in other countries, learn what they face, what they get to endure. For example - do you know that the deadliest of recent wars was not in Ukraine or Palestine, but in Ethiopia? What do you know about the current situation in Myanmar, aside from the Facebook drama? Did you consider supporting women rights’ causes in the Middle East?
Personal action and involvement will not allow you to fall for the traps the state tries to implant in your mind, and you’ll be personally responsible for a small, but proud piece of international cooperation - one that should become commonplace to the point when it wouldn’t make sense for anyone to draw divisions.
Human life is human life. Human suffering is human suffering - here or on the other side of the globe. The concepts of unity, hope, and cooperation are all universally recognized wherever you are. Why not step in?
You’re from the US? It smells like you see the whole world through that lens.
Nope, I’m from Russia.
But then again, where does that not have its place? Are people in Europe, say, universally welcoming to immigrants? Or maybe Asia is not full of xenophobia? Africa, at least?..
There are much better factors of unity than being on a certain plot of land.
Can’t answer your post, it’s too deep (I’m on Connect, it doesn’t handle deep posts very well) so I’m answering your latest post here.
After WW2 (that Russia started with Germany):
Russia occupied half of Europe by force, calling it the soviet union. Most countries didn’t have a say and didn’t want to be in the union, and no one was allowed to leave. Some were outright invaded like Czechoslovakia.
The USA has military bases all around the world yes, but most of them are wanted by the countries, and if asked the USA will leave (see France for example). The USA has not tried to annex one single country.
If you can’t see the difference we’ll then I just can’t discuss more subtle things with you like countries and borders and gouvernances. So yeah it took a turn there I guess, a shame if it ends, because it’s been interesting!
Oh, Connect is still out there? Thought it is dead.
Annexation by USSR touched Baltics and parts of Poland. The rest was more of puppet governments - something the US has practiced extensively all around the globe.
Part of it was ex-Axis powers (like Japan), the other part - just about any government thinking of socialism or economic independence from the US or having oil (Vietnam, Cuba, Chile, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Brazil, Bolivia, Cambodia, Syria, Guatemala, China, Egypt - you name it). After the Cold War, there were barely a few years US was not involved in some conflict or the other over its “national interests” or “national security”, suggesting that it was never about rivalry with USSR. Needless to say, local population was generally not very happy about getting these military interventions, carpet bombings, coups and instated dictators.
So, I cannot in good faith agree that US was any better in this respect. Both sucked a lot, and same is likely to happen to any grand military power - if anything because military needs experience to stay efficient, and with great power comes great desire to use it to your advantage.
Well the USA is a democracy and Russia is and has always been an autocracy (with that little blip in the nineties). The USA doesn’t always value human life like you’d like but Russia outright uses, and has always used, people in slaughters, famins etc.
If you can’t see the difference then I do not want to try out your (anarchy?) solution…
Still interesting you can’t see your own country for what it is.
For what it is in what respect? You tried to argue that Cold War is a good vs evil situation, I argued that it is very much evil vs evil.
I fully admit Russia is and always was (I told you why nineties don’t really count) an autocracy, and that actions of Russian rulers have caused a lot of misery and suffering. This doesn’t stop me from admitting the US is a deeply flawed democracy, that American rulers are known to take plenty of unpopular decisions (including wars that no one asked for), and are generally known to not care about lives of people outside the country, causing even more misery all around the globe up to this day.
And this is exactly why I want the governments to have less power, and advocate for direct democracy. Any power is potential for abuse, and Russia and the US have likely proved it the most. Curbing the power of all governments, big and small, has great potential to reduce violence and abuse. With direct democracy and independent media, Russia could have never attacked Ukraine, Israel could never attack Palestine, and US wouldn’t threaten to enter Iran yet again. Russia also wouldn’t have opposition in jails or abroad, US wouldn’t send immigrants to Alligator Alcatraz, and level of human misery would be so much less.
As long as we lead ourselves to believe that this misery and suffering is righteous or “not that bad” to any degree, we empower the tyrants all around the globe.
That is only in theory, like the copcept of democracy
It’s been decades since I’ve cared about the 4th as an actual holiday. Now it’s just a day that I don’t have to work.
Good day to march on your White House, perhaps…
I thought about this too. In the past I used to go to protests because I felt that if our leaders saw the protest that they might change their mind about something.
Now, so many of our citizens are so insane, they think you won’t actually protest unless George Soros pays you. I also can’t picture Trump seeing a protest and saying “I think I’ll reconsider…” It feels more futile than ever.
It’s never futile. Sure, Trump will never listen, never care about anyone whose not himself, never face justice (crap, now you’re depressing me), but what about Al the minion who do his bidding. I mean, they’re evil too, but going deeper ….
This all can’t happen without supporters. Maybe it’s voters who are low information or easily manipulated finally seeing the truth. Maybe it’s federal employees feeling the support to do the right thing. Maybe it’s law enforcement growing shame at how they’ve been used. Maybe it’s judicial branch standing up from being marginalized and corporatized, fighting back against legalized bribery and corroded ethics at the highest court.
The billionaires big bill was passed in the senate on a tie breaker. It would have take only one more senator to be swayed. Big elections coming up in a little over a year- your peers might elect someone who will actually serve them. Various states and cities, corps and law firms are standing up for what’s right: maybe you can get one more
I’ve found that it gives hope to those who hate the direction the nation is going, but feel isolated. We are not a tiny minority, and we need to act like it.
Flags have become a warning over the last decade or so about the person waving it. It no longer has the hope of a better America, solidarity, or welcome; it’s a symbol of a myopic, selfish, aggro, uneducated person full of performative nationalism and real hatreds.
Our independence was supposed to free the people of kings and tyrants. It’s been 249 years since 1776, we have undone what the Constitution authors fought for.
Our independence was supposed to free the people of kings and tyrants. It’s been 249 years since 1776, we have undone what the Constitution authors fought for.
That’s what happens if you stick with a quarter-millennium old prototype of a semi-democratic system.
The constitution was revolutionary and ground-breaking, a quarter millennium ago. But still running that old piece of toilet paper as the basis of a democratic system in 2025 is like driving a Ford Model T today and claiming that it still is the latest and greatest automobile ever created.
I always find irony in the fact that the US helped set up better forms of government in the countries it fought in WW2, Japan and Germany, than it could make better in its own country.
It does make sense though. The main motivator for politicians is power. That means, naturally political systems flow towards maximizing power for those in power, that’s just the natural progression.
To change this, major political upheavals are necessary, so basically events where the whole old leadership is tossed out and the new leadership can try to setup something to stop the same thing from happening again.
WW2 was perfect for that. All those countries were in need of a completely new political system and thus they could be built better from the ground up.
The US never had any event like that (apart maybe from the civil war).
To change the system without such an event, two thirds of all relevant politicians would have to vote for changing the system that brought them to power. Not likely to happen.
In terms an American can understand: “Imagine a car…”
This is why we have constitutional amendments. It’s been extended a good bit over the last centuries. The tools are there but nobody wants to, or can agree on how to, use them.
Have you looked at the amendments? So far there have only been 27 of them over 236 years. Ten of them were created within a year of the constitution being created. They were basically Zero-Day-Patches, not actual amendments, and two amendments only exist to nullify each other (18 and 21) which leaves 15 amendments over 235 years (one of which was actually also created within the first year and only ratified 200 years later).
The last time an amendment was proposed was 54 years ago and the last one ratified was 33 years ago.
Not counting the Zero-Day-Patches, not a lot of these amendments actually change anything fundamental. Notable ones are 12 (governs the election of VP), 13-15 and 19 (civil rights), 17 (election of senators), 22 (president’s term limit) and 25 (succession of the president).
Notably absent from the amendments is anything that changes the core political system or electoral system.
Compare that to other countries. In the time that the US constitution hat 15 minor amendments, France had a total of 15 complete constitution re-writes, not even counting amendments. 15 full new constitutions.
Germany had 69 constitutional amendments since 1949 (76 years, so almost one amendment per year, compared to the 1/16 amendments per year in the USA).
But by far the biggest issue is that a constitutional amendment cannot actually fix fundamental systemic issues. The people who have the power to change the constitution came to power within the current system, so if they fundamentally change how the system works (e.g. by repairing the electoral system in a way that more than two parties can be relevant), they are directly cutting into their own power, so of course they won’t do that.
That’s what you need major constitutional crises for (like e.g. Europe after WW2), so that the constitution can be re-written from scratch, fixing the issues that lead to the crisis.
But the US has been too big to fail for too long and thus there never was anything big enough to take down the US so that it needed to be restarted from scratch. The closest they came to was the civil war, but they didn’t take the opportunity to actually overhaul the system. Probably because it was still too early and there wasn’t much of a precedent of how to build a better democratic system.
But who knows, at the current rate it might be likely that the US is quite close to another chance to re-write the constitution.
Celebrating America hasn’t been something to be proud of since before 2001. We had a couple of high points during Obama, but nothing that tipped the scales.
I’m personally disgusted by this place, and anytime I see someone with an American flag anywhere on their person or property, I immediately assume they’re a conservative and I think lesser of them. I know that this isn’t a reality, but that is what the American flag means to me, and I assume quite a few others.
Absolutely like that for me. Or Christians. If I know you’re a Christian within 15 min of meeting you, we are not going to be friends.
In my lifetime, I’ve met ONE very religious Christian who wasn’t a hypocrite. ONE. He was a very nice guy, though, and I hope he and his family are doing well.
The remaining 99.9% of the time, I’m absolutely with you.
There a very few notably religious people that I associate with. I have a coworker that was a pastor for years and is still religious. He approaches it in the way I think it should be. We discuss religion as a theory, he doesn’t push or tell people what to believe. His belief is that God has his plans and that’s between him and each person. If every religious person lived like him, I’d have a lot less issue with it. I don’t agree with many of his other beliefs that are born from his religious background, but he’s not trying to impose them on anyone or prevent anyone from living their lives.
Other than him, and even still sometimes him, I agree with you. It’s like a scarlet letter that was put on volunteerily to say, “hey, I’m a dick and my beliefs are correct and apply to everyone.”
Honestly as a religious person myself I’m constantly disgusted this isn’t the norm.
If the topic of religion ever comes up, the theory is my favourite conversation. I’m not here to sell you on my view of God, and I don’t want you to sell me on yours. It’s two sides of the same frankly quite interesting coin, and I like learning about the different ways people do things - but I’m not here to make you do things my way. That would be wrong.
And unless the topic comes up organically, it doesn’t fucking matter. We can work together or be best mates or whatever and unless you asked, you’d never have to know I was religious.
The people who complain the loudest about disrespecting the flag are the same people who ruined it in the first place.
Burning it in a discarded toilet next to a truck stop is less disrespectful than this.
If those people didn’t have
hippcrasyhypocrisy, they’d have nothing… Well, they’d still have racism, bigotry, and a bunch of other shitty attributes I guess.hypocrisy. It is a really weirdly-spelled word.
Lol, I did butcher it. I only Lemmy from my phone, so I’m far more inclined to have typos. When I typed that I remember starting it and clicking on the suggestion to auto fill, but I must not clicked where I thought.
I imagine almost everyone who’s not American, like 95.5% of the world population.
I haven’t felt patriotic for July 4 since I was a teenager. And I grow more aliented every year.
Removed by mod
He seems to be the pinnacle of US presidents. It has only been going down since him.
As an immigrant to the US, I’ve always found the blind patriotism commonplace here to be very strange. It feels even more alienating now than ever before.
Common in an authoritarian, warmongering police state.
For them it’s invariably other countries that get this label, they can’t think outside the box bcs of their propaganda.
Feeling patriotic towards a country of traitors.
US best values have been lost long time ago.
I’ve never been more ashamed to be an American.
I’m a-shamed to be an A-merican,
Where at least now I can’t see.
And I won’t forget the libs who cried,
Who gave that right to me.
Lemmy sings
well, at least you’ve got the knowledge that I’m proud of you for that
What the fuck would I have to be proud of? The US has been on a downward trend for a long time and that’s accelerating
Yeah but before, we could eat BBQ and blow off fireworks and pretend like America is going to fix itself.
Literally nobody I know is doing a cook out.
We have some scheduled on July 12th.
What’s July 12th?
I hear you and I agree
