I was talking to one of my friends and he mentioned staying home on July 4, citing how there are a lot of really ugly things going on in the US.
After thinking about this myself, I’m starting to feel the same way. Instead of being proud of the country, I’m feeling like I’m just another wallet that companies and the government are trying to suck all the money out of.
The cost of living is going up, the housing market is a nightmare, I don’t feel very confident in our government at all, the job market is a nightmare…
I think I’ll be staying home this year too… anyone else?
I’m a USAF vet. My ancestors literally fought in the revolutionary war, and signed The Declaration of Independence. I’m going through the motions this year, but I don’t feel it at all. I’m pissed that we’re multiple stages into a nazi regime. I’m profoundly flabbergasted at how anyone could be for this. How anyone that is for it, can’t see that they’re going to be the “out” party. Some already are seeing it.
I’m incredibly disappointed that the news has gotten so out of touch that they just rolled over and lapped up the rhetoric. Local news is all sunshine and rainbows while ICE kidnaps people, and a corrupt POtuS breaks the constitution left and right. While he deploys military against its own citizens. While rights are stripped, aided by a corrupt SCOTUS. While the rich get richer off of our backs. While the checks and balances are obliterated.
stop “going through the motions,” then? do something?? anything???
idk tbh anytime i see someone act as surprised as you are at this point it’s someone who believed, strongly, in the noble lies fed to us. i don’t mean to judge you pointedly, but knowing you’re an air force vet… doesn’t exactly inspire confidence in the counterpoint to that opinion.
i came from a family with a lot of military brats so im confident in saying 99% of people who enlist are either doing so out of economic desperation (aka coercion) or they’re dumb enough to believe the shit the recruiters/propoganda/government spew. if i offend… that’s fine. i have respect for the trauma, both physical and mental, that vets have gone through but i think you guys aren’t just cogs in a machine and are morally culpable for what you’re involved in doing. i respect the people on an individual basis, but spit on the org as a whole.
anyway idk not to babble on and on but point being maybe the euros are right when they say none of us have the balls to do what needs to be done. people won’t even say what needs to be said because they fear losing their jobs and careers due to corporate, dystopic surveillance of their every word. it’s the most milquetoast acceptance of literal fascism in history and your comment and the behavior you espouse is exactly why they’re able to do it.
don’t get me wrong, i’m not casting stones. i am not without sin either. i’m sitting here shitposting on the internet instead of marching. i’m also part of the problem; but it’s time we start calling it out instead of getting offended at the notion we are just letting it happen.
people won’t even say what needs to be said because they fear losing their jobs and careers due to corporate, dystopic surveillance of their every word.
in this spirit i’ll be the first to say. fuck ice. i won’t self-police myself for thought crime anymore. the first chance i get to kill an ice agent im taking, and every true fucking patriot should feel the same. it’s time to water the tree of liberty, man.
If you want to be effective at changing the system, killing random ICE Nazis won’t do it. Everyone here is advocating peaceful protest, but that also won’t do it - or at least, not by itself.
Instead, consider direct action - sabotage of the means of production that prop up the fascist state.
Take a listen to Rev Left’s interview with Palestine Action to learn what I’m talking about: https://revolutionaryleftradio.libsyn.com/size/5/?search=Palestine+action
I find the bit about believing the lies we’re fed as somewhat naive. We’re all on a journey, and everyone starts in a different place, with unique foundations.
My current opinions vary wildly from those held 20 years ago. Change is a good thing, and I think it should be expected as the norm.
I see where you’re at. I take no offense. I definitely could be doing more. I can’t work either, so it isn’t like I don’t have the time. Physical issues are my only real hold back. My enlistment was fear of being trapped in an abusive home, as well as feeling like high school didn’t offer enough of an education to prepare me. We both have the luxury of doing what we’re doing.
However, I offer a few counter points.
What does killing 1 ICE “officer” accomplish? How does that affect change in the right direction? Does this cause others to do the same and follow suit?
We need more that I don’t think we’re at the point of accomplishing yet. We need a full on civil war. One that I’m not sure how we get to kick off, all at the same time, all across the nation, without it fizzling out quickly.
The problem then comes in how to coordinate that. How do we communicate, nation wide, in a way that is not vulnerable to monitoring and disruption by the very place we’re trying to change? How do we coordinate arming and supplies? How do we coordinate movements and operations?
We can’t stop at just POtuS either. 99% of it needs to go. Dem leadership has been largely sitting on the bloody nubs that they try to “reach across the aisle” with. SCOTUS and most all other courts are compromised. Plus the billionaires, the behind the scenes assholes, and even state and local governments. It all needs a clean sweep.
We have too comfortable of a life. We’re too complacent. We were too far removed from the fascism that spilled over in Europe. We were too padded. It didn’t really hit us, in either world war, back here. Our troops came back home and went back to regular life as usual. We had a civil war, but we didn’t punish any of the perpetrators. That led us right back where we’re at. At the time though, you could survive on your own. Support a family off of the land. There wasn’t much of an infrastructure. There was no pain to be felt by the general populace (loss of life aside).
I do think we’ll get to full on armed conflict. I feel as though mid terms will be the kicker. I just don’t know if armed conflict is where we’re at yet. Not that I don’t think we should be. It’s that the general populace is too comfortable. We, apparently, need our lives to hurt more. To be affected more. Is it sad? Absolutely. Is it very much against everything that the founding fathers envisioned, especially when drafting up the 2nd? Absolutely. They would be completely disgusted with all of us. Myself included.
The fix is not killing ICE officers.
The civil rights movements of the 60s, Jim Crow, etc, won by being willing to be beaten. By voluntarily entering a cafe and sitting there waiting to be served like a human being, meanwhile being willing to be called names, dropped food and drinks onto them, burnt with cigarettes, abused.
That willingness and perseverance in wanting to be recognised as the human beings they are awoke the rest of the population.
Pacifist demonstrations and matches are a way to achieve that. They are displays for your fellow colleagues, not for the government you want to depose. Make clear that they are pacifist. Prepare and inform the people going. Sit down if you are charged. Stop violent people there. Etc. Make obvious that the fascist are fascists that way and say and invigorate people to your side.
The first act that started the Tunisian “Arab Spring” was just one street seller being killed by the police.
There is no “correct” spark. And nobody knows what will spark a war until it has happened.
Maybe some guy that gets shot by ICE, maybe some guy that kills an ICE thug, maybe something else.
I agree with most everything you said here, it’s a good analysis. Sorry for being a bit of a reactionary this morning. Not sure why I was on such a shit-slinging vibe earlier but I’m willing to own up to it.
What does killing 1 ICE “officer” accomplish? How does that affect change in the right direction? Does this cause others to do the same and follow suit?
We need more that I don’t think we’re at the point of accomplishing yet. We need a full on civil war. One that I’m not sure how we get to kick off, all at the same time, all across the nation, without it fizzling out quickly.
I would see a civil war, or something like it, as the first “real,” and rational opportunity for an individual to kill an ICE agent. In my mind, doing so as a sort of lonewolf is so absurdly stupid as to not be considerable but I understand that’s probably not a reasonable take these days anymore when it comes to discourse in the commons. Therein is the sociopolitical paradox you mentioned about what actually sparks the powderkeg. In short, I think we’re saying about the same thing in principle, I’m just an edgelord before noon I guess lmao.
Thanks for taking the time to respond, I always appreciate discourse. Meet all sorts of cool people on lemmy. Hope life has more in store for you, for all of us. Good luck!
Absolutely no shade my friend. I am absolutely as pissed off as you are. I really wish it would make a difference. Many of us do. It just isn’t quite there yet. The stew is close, we just need the vegetables to get ready.
I love the discourse as well. We don’t get a feel for everyone’s feelings towards things when we don’t. Others may even bring up things we hadn’t thought about, or an angle we didn’t see.
Good luck to you as well!
deleted by creator
Our country is under MAGA Nazis rule, and that is nothing to celebrate. Independence Day should be a Day of Resistance, until the MAGA Nazis lose their control.
State-level patriotism is always bullshit to begin with.
That’s how you’re tricked into loyalty based on the most arbitrary reasons.
Be the messenger of humanity and get curious about the Universe. People are brothers, and there’s no pride in being born in one plot of land over the other.
If that’s your reaction we need even more murder jets to do a fly over and the already ridiculously sized freedom flags will get even bigger!
But seriously, patriotism is an unnatural artificial and cultivated concept.
Indeed to be used by the state.The state should be you, the citizens.
The state should not exist. We are people of Earth, and we should not be divided by someone. Divided, we are powerless to make a global change, and those who divide us reap all the benefits of this bullshit system.
So we shouldn’t band together, to band together.
You should calm down your drug use IMO.
We should band together based on mutual respect and common responsibility, and not based on someone telling us who to band with and who not to.
The concept of nation-state doesn’t allow us to band with whoever we like, and calls to unite with people born in place X (and commonly against people born in place Y). The concept of state in general oversees and dictates our relationships more broadly.
Multitude of states all fostering loyalty to their rulers doesn’t allow many people to look at those of other nations as equals and fellows with shared global goals. Sure, messages of international peace are commonplace, but hey, we should definitely exclude those pesky Chinese/Russians/Americans/Ukrainians/Israelis/Palestinians/whatever!
When we categorize people by nations through the lens of state, we put easy labels that are far from true. If someone’s a Russian, he sure supports war in Ukraine. If someone’s American, he sure is personally responsible for all the immigrant scare. If someone’s born in Israel or China, clearly he’s all on board with genocide!
At the same time, state-level patriotism fosters coming to terms with terrible people within the nation. Sure, our billionaires might be at fault in some ways, but it’s better than other country’s evil and corrupt billionaires! Our rulers are wise leaders, their rulers are cruel autocrats! My neighbor is a terrible person, but at least he’s not one of those <input the nation with bad stereotypes>!
It forces us to make preference to people who may not deserve our support, who might be actively undermining our causes, it leads us to close our eyes on the sufferings of others outside our arbitrary group that doesn’t even share our views and goals.
Now, I know it doesn’t have to be that extreme, but patriotism is always showing preference to someone or something based on a very arbitrary characteristic, instead of honest and fair consideration. It’s an intentionally cultivated fallacy.
On a personal note, I’d rather avoid ad hominem attacks if you’d like to keep a good faith discussion running. And, FYI, I never take any drugs, not even alcohol.
Utopian nonsense
We can always do our best to make it closer.
Most people claim this to be Utopian, and then just try to tone it down in others, so their own compliance is not seen to themselves as weakness but rather “wisdom”. No - it is a surrender, an act of learned helplessness.
Sure, it’s hard to force politicians to abandon the concept of nations, and it’s hard to bring a revolt to a population so compliant.
But everyone can make personal steps.
First, admit that patriotism is bullshit. There is no ground to be patriotic, and nothing realistically unites you with your “nation”. You have more in common with a person of the same position on the other side of the globe than you have with the president of your very “own” country.
Second, watch your own preferences in people and what you factor in your decision. Maybe you give too much weight to where the person comes from? Is it that you label people in some way based on that characteristic alone?
Third, if you have the opportunity, form an international collective, reach out to specialists within other nations, or if you can’t, see if you can build a collective or even just a friend group with the immigrants around you.
Fourth - advocate for people in other countries, learn what they face, what they get to endure. For example - do you know that the deadliest of recent wars was not in Ukraine or Palestine, but in Ethiopia? What do you know about the current situation in Myanmar, aside from the Facebook drama? Did you consider supporting women rights’ causes in the Middle East?
Personal action and involvement will not allow you to fall for the traps the state tries to implant in your mind, and you’ll be personally responsible for a small, but proud piece of international cooperation - one that should become commonplace to the point when it wouldn’t make sense for anyone to draw divisions.
Human life is human life. Human suffering is human suffering - here or on the other side of the globe. The concepts of unity, hope, and cooperation are all universally recognized wherever you are. Why not step in?
You’re from the US? It smells like you see the whole world through that lens.
Nope, I’m from Russia.
But then again, where does that not have its place? Are people in Europe, say, universally welcoming to immigrants? Or maybe Asia is not full of xenophobia? Africa, at least?..
There are much better factors of unity than being on a certain plot of land.
Can’t answer your post, it’s too deep (I’m on Connect, it doesn’t handle deep posts very well) so I’m answering your latest post here.
After WW2 (that Russia started with Germany):
Russia occupied half of Europe by force, calling it the soviet union. Most countries didn’t have a say and didn’t want to be in the union, and no one was allowed to leave. Some were outright invaded like Czechoslovakia.
The USA has military bases all around the world yes, but most of them are wanted by the countries, and if asked the USA will leave (see France for example). The USA has not tried to annex one single country.
If you can’t see the difference we’ll then I just can’t discuss more subtle things with you like countries and borders and gouvernances. So yeah it took a turn there I guess, a shame if it ends, because it’s been interesting!
Oh, Connect is still out there? Thought it is dead.
Annexation by USSR touched Baltics and parts of Poland. The rest was more of puppet governments - something the US has practiced extensively all around the globe.
Part of it was ex-Axis powers (like Japan), the other part - just about any government thinking of socialism or economic independence from the US or having oil (Vietnam, Cuba, Chile, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Brazil, Bolivia, Cambodia, Syria, Guatemala, China, Egypt - you name it). After the Cold War, there were barely a few years US was not involved in some conflict or the other over its “national interests” or “national security”, suggesting that it was never about rivalry with USSR. Needless to say, local population was generally not very happy about getting these military interventions, carpet bombings, coups and instated dictators.
So, I cannot in good faith agree that US was any better in this respect. Both sucked a lot, and same is likely to happen to any grand military power - if anything because military needs experience to stay efficient, and with great power comes great desire to use it to your advantage.
Well the USA is a democracy and Russia is and has always been an autocracy (with that little blip in the nineties). The USA doesn’t always value human life like you’d like but Russia outright uses, and has always used, people in slaughters, famins etc.
If you can’t see the difference then I do not want to try out your (anarchy?) solution…
Still interesting you can’t see your own country for what it is.
For what it is in what respect? You tried to argue that Cold War is a good vs evil situation, I argued that it is very much evil vs evil.
I fully admit Russia is and always was (I told you why nineties don’t really count) an autocracy, and that actions of Russian rulers have caused a lot of misery and suffering. This doesn’t stop me from admitting the US is a deeply flawed democracy, that American rulers are known to take plenty of unpopular decisions (including wars that no one asked for), and are generally known to not care about lives of people outside the country, causing even more misery all around the globe up to this day.
And this is exactly why I want the governments to have less power, and advocate for direct democracy. Any power is potential for abuse, and Russia and the US have likely proved it the most. Curbing the power of all governments, big and small, has great potential to reduce violence and abuse. With direct democracy and independent media, Russia could have never attacked Ukraine, Israel could never attack Palestine, and US wouldn’t threaten to enter Iran yet again. Russia also wouldn’t have opposition in jails or abroad, US wouldn’t send immigrants to Alligator Alcatraz, and level of human misery would be so much less.
As long as we lead ourselves to believe that this misery and suffering is righteous or “not that bad” to any degree, we empower the tyrants all around the globe.
That is only in theory, like the copcept of democracy
Because of Patriotism they had it so easy to turn it into Nationalism and now turn it to fascism.
Flags have become a warning over the last decade or so about the person waving it. It no longer has the hope of a better America, solidarity, or welcome; it’s a symbol of a myopic, selfish, aggro, uneducated person full of performative nationalism and real hatreds.
Our independence was supposed to free the people of kings and tyrants. It’s been 249 years since 1776, we have undone what the Constitution authors fought for.
Our independence was supposed to free the people of kings and tyrants. It’s been 249 years since 1776, we have undone what the Constitution authors fought for.
That’s what happens if you stick with a quarter-millennium old prototype of a semi-democratic system.
The constitution was revolutionary and ground-breaking, a quarter millennium ago. But still running that old piece of toilet paper as the basis of a democratic system in 2025 is like driving a Ford Model T today and claiming that it still is the latest and greatest automobile ever created.
I always find irony in the fact that the US helped set up better forms of government in the countries it fought in WW2, Japan and Germany, than it could make better in its own country.
It does make sense though. The main motivator for politicians is power. That means, naturally political systems flow towards maximizing power for those in power, that’s just the natural progression.
To change this, major political upheavals are necessary, so basically events where the whole old leadership is tossed out and the new leadership can try to setup something to stop the same thing from happening again.
WW2 was perfect for that. All those countries were in need of a completely new political system and thus they could be built better from the ground up.
The US never had any event like that (apart maybe from the civil war).
To change the system without such an event, two thirds of all relevant politicians would have to vote for changing the system that brought them to power. Not likely to happen.
In terms an American can understand: “Imagine a car…”
This is why we have constitutional amendments. It’s been extended a good bit over the last centuries. The tools are there but nobody wants to, or can agree on how to, use them.
Have you looked at the amendments? So far there have only been 27 of them over 236 years. Ten of them were created within a year of the constitution being created. They were basically Zero-Day-Patches, not actual amendments, and two amendments only exist to nullify each other (18 and 21) which leaves 15 amendments over 235 years (one of which was actually also created within the first year and only ratified 200 years later).
The last time an amendment was proposed was 54 years ago and the last one ratified was 33 years ago.
Not counting the Zero-Day-Patches, not a lot of these amendments actually change anything fundamental. Notable ones are 12 (governs the election of VP), 13-15 and 19 (civil rights), 17 (election of senators), 22 (president’s term limit) and 25 (succession of the president).
Notably absent from the amendments is anything that changes the core political system or electoral system.
Compare that to other countries. In the time that the US constitution hat 15 minor amendments, France had a total of 15 complete constitution re-writes, not even counting amendments. 15 full new constitutions.
Germany had 69 constitutional amendments since 1949 (76 years, so almost one amendment per year, compared to the 1/16 amendments per year in the USA).
But by far the biggest issue is that a constitutional amendment cannot actually fix fundamental systemic issues. The people who have the power to change the constitution came to power within the current system, so if they fundamentally change how the system works (e.g. by repairing the electoral system in a way that more than two parties can be relevant), they are directly cutting into their own power, so of course they won’t do that.
That’s what you need major constitutional crises for (like e.g. Europe after WW2), so that the constitution can be re-written from scratch, fixing the issues that lead to the crisis.
But the US has been too big to fail for too long and thus there never was anything big enough to take down the US so that it needed to be restarted from scratch. The closest they came to was the civil war, but they didn’t take the opportunity to actually overhaul the system. Probably because it was still too early and there wasn’t much of a precedent of how to build a better democratic system.
But who knows, at the current rate it might be likely that the US is quite close to another chance to re-write the constitution.
I haven’t felt patriotic for July 4 since I was a teenager. And I grow more aliented every year.
Removed by mod
He seems to be the pinnacle of US presidents. It has only been going down since him.
As an immigrant to the US, I’ve always found the blind patriotism commonplace here to be very strange. It feels even more alienating now than ever before.
Common in an authoritarian, warmongering police state.
For them it’s invariably other countries that get this label, they can’t think outside the box bcs of their propaganda.
I imagine almost everyone who’s not American, like 95.5% of the world population.
I’ve never been more ashamed to be an American.
I’m a-shamed to be an A-merican,
Where at least now I can’t see.
And I won’t forget the libs who cried,
Who gave that right to me.
Lemmy sings
well, at least you’ve got the knowledge that I’m proud of you for that
What the fuck would I have to be proud of? The US has been on a downward trend for a long time and that’s accelerating
Yeah but before, we could eat BBQ and blow off fireworks and pretend like America is going to fix itself.
Literally nobody I know is doing a cook out.
We have some scheduled on July 12th.
What’s July 12th?
I hear you and I agree
Feeling patriotic towards a country of traitors.
US best values have been lost long time ago.
Canadian here and we celebrated the fuck out of our national holiday which just passed. We have a stronger feeling of solidarity than we’ve felt in a long time. Despite the threats of annexation and shifting tariffs, we are feeling more hopeful than we have in many years, possibly because we’re making new friends in the global sandbox and coming into our own power now instead of constantly kowtowing to the USA in all matters.
Except a few folks in Alberta who would love to be part of the modern Nazi regime. Fuck them, tho.
Personally, I’m not feeling that same vibe. I think the solidarity against the US is a very good thing, but the sheer amount of ways Canada is just “America Light” is very depressing. Its to the point that our flag has been so sullied by absolutely shit tier movements in the last 5 years that I can’t stand to see it anymore.
Every time I see a private flag pole, bumper stickers or anything kind of patriotic merch my knee jerk reaction is “I bet this dude’s a fuckwad.” I know that I’m painting with a huge and shitty brush but I just can’t even fight against it anymore. I know it’s wrong. I just don’t care, and that makes me sad.
I live comfortably here, but given even a minutely convenient reason to emigrate I think I’d take it.
Canada is a car infested, anti-human shit hole just like America. To paraphrase Steve Harris of Iron Maiden a bit “We oil the jaws of the
warcapitalist machine and feed it with ourbabiesimmigrants.”I’ve felt like that for years, too. But Canadians boycotting en masses, then soundly rejecting mini-Trump has given me hope. Since then, our leader has been reaching out to other countries to form new relationships and deals. We just signed a rare earth minerals deal with Greenland, of all places.
Yes, Canada has been hamstrung by US demands but the vice-grip they’ve had over us has deteriorated. This wouldn’t have happened if not every single other country in the world was going through the same thing. So it feels a bit like a rebirth to me, with the possibility of finally being able to come into our own as a nation.
Why feel patriotic for a country that literally stole/claimed what wasn’t theirs to being with? Never felt such a thing for this so called “first world”.
Whose was it? At what point in history was ownership established and why was it not the previously displaced people’s instead? How long does it take to establish ownership, and what means are justified to do so? Who exactly is the United States anyway?
World history for millennia has shown that the conquerors write the rules. Ownership is established immediately upon victory. It matters not if you’re a yanomamo tribe living 1000 years ago or a modern military 1st world country. The victors write the rules.
Isn’t the whole point of civilization to get away from the tyranny of men with sharp sticks? We can’t let the crimes of our ancestors justify modern crimes.
Being a Brit, for years I’ve jokingly referred to the 4th of July as ‘Rebellion Day’ to my USian friends. Not sure I’m joking any more, just hopeful. Go on. Rebel!
Overthrow your tyrannical government, you won’t.
