I think it’s very clear that the Albertan separatist movement is rooted in conservative “welfare queen” rhetoric and not anything valid, so perhaps let’s focus on the québécois sovereignty movement. I know that the local anarchist stance is, of course, ni Québec, ni Canada, and I have seen a variety of opinions from local communists. But I would be interested to know how non-local leftists perceive the concept of québécois sovereignty.
Context for the sovereignty movement in a spoiler so as to not pollute your opinion of it before responding
Perhaps non-Canadians are not aware, but there was a period of time where sovereigntist groups such as the FLQ (Front de libération du Québec / Quebec Liberation Front) were engaging in “terroristic” (I always hesitate to use this word due to its weaponization by bourgeois states) actions, which resulted in the Prime Minister essentially declaring martial law to deal with it.
There was also a referendum in 1995 that came extremely close to passing, with only 50.85% of voters voting against independence. A “yes” vote of 50% plus one would have been successful.
Many of the movement’s early key figures were involved for reasons of white supremacy, and the movement is extremely white to this day. The popular conservative parties are sovereigntist and also extremely xenophobic, following in French tradition in policing what kinds of clothing Muslim women are allowed to wear.
But what I find extremely interesting and odd is that the province’s “left” party, Québec Solidaire, is also sovereigntist.
I can probably elucidate upon more history and nuance of the reasons why the movement became popular if people need or would like more context.
I would imagine a lot of US conservatives back these movements, a balkanised Canada would be even easier to control and subjugate and even annex. Probably why these movements tend to be so right wing, rather than focused on indigenous liberation.
I refuse to give a shit about the “suppression” of French Canadians while the indigenous people of the Americas are facing actual oppression.
And Albertan independence is chuds who want to do some treason to become an American outpost but even more so. Fuck them.
Gotta be careful with this kind of thinking. You’re almost going into a reverse hierarchy ranking most to least oppressed. What about the oppression of women? Or the oppression of indigenous women within their own communities? Are you going to keep dismissing specific groups until you find the one you consider the most oppressed? We need to analyze and understand all forms of oppression of the proletariat under capitalism.
You obviously can’t directly compare the conditions of French Canadians and indigenous communities but nevertheless French Canadians do experience specific forms of oppression. Especially in relation to the Anglo majority. The Canadian police disproportionately infiltrate French unions, lower wages, low representation in the federal government etc. That being said…bourgeois nationalism in the form of the Bloc isn’t the answer but contemporary Canada has many specific circumstances and a very diverse population that needs to be reconciled with in order to create a real unified proletariat.
What’s worth noting about the FLQ “terror tactics” is that they were infiltrated by the then RCMP-SS to such an extent that the RCMP actually boasted about it and said “we are the FLQ”. Their undercover agents would act as provocateurs and push for members to buy weapons and plan violent attacks. Which they refused to a large extent. And they were almost solely responsible for planning and carrying out the bombings attributed to the FLQ.
Read “manufacturing threats” by Alexandre Popovich
Good recommendation, thank you. The RCMP acted with relative impunity during this timeframe and there have recently been stories about their infiltration of BIPOC communities during this time coming out in the media as well.
As much as we all hate Canada, the working class of Quebec would be much worse off if they exit and form their own country. They would simply be picked off piece by piece by BurgerLander corporations and sold for a pittance.
I believe sovereigntists on the right have some sort of idealistic view of the economy post-sovereignty, where Quebec becomes self-sufficient and trade is mostly done internally. There has been a lot of pearl-clutching over “Chinese dumping” of products recently in the wake of the closure of a few longstanding local manufacturing businesses. I am sure they would ban imports to save local businesses if they could, regardless of the impact it would have on the cost of goods for citizens.
Even without looking at the impact on the economy, the working class in Quebec would be immediately worse off without the equalization payments the province receives from the federal government.
I am kind of sceptical towards them. I find it hard to believe that the Quebecois or the Albertans face actual oppression and it seems like the separatist movements are not really that liberatory. To my understanding the Alberta separatists are a bunch of chuds obsessed with petro-machismo and the Quebec separatists seems to be more right than left. As I see it all they want to do is to do more capitalism but with a different flag. There doesn’t even seem to be a soft liberal progressive idea of a better society in it, such as with Scottish separatism which wants to avoid some of the worst English brainworms.
I don’t think separatism would improve conditions for Canadian workers. I understand the idea of “this sucks, let’s leave” but ultimately it is a red herring that doesn’t address the underlying structural reasons why people are dissatisfied.
This is very accurate. There’s also the matter of a sovereign Quebec meaning the physical separation of the four Atlantic provinces from the rest of the country. I’m from Canada’s east coast. The general vibes there are a broad sympathy to the Quebecois for various genuine historical injustices, especially the poor historical treatment of the francophone working class by anglophone business owners until shockingly recently. We had much the same happen to francophones on the east coast, especially in the province of New Brunswick. They faced a lot of discrimination in workplace promotions, home loan approvals, candidacy in elections, construction permits, education opportunities, etc. We understand, we sympathize, we modern east-coast anglophones really do try to be better to our francophone fellow citizens than our ancestors were.
But there’s also a powerful feeling that the modern Quebec separatists really don’t care about the consequences of independence to anyone east of them. The east coast has been economically devastated for many decades, arguably since the end of WW2. We simply don’t have the economic base to survive independently. We depend heavily on interprovincial trade and on international trade deals negotiated by the federal government. Basically on the east coast we distrust the federal government slightly less than we distrust Quebec separatists, so we tend towards supporting Quebec’s “cultural independence” as a way to keep the moderates there happy and avoid a factual independence that would screw us over.
I think you’ve pretty much summed it up.
It’s worth pointing out that the Alberta “separatists” are largely astroturfing Americans who are doing a lot of crimes and actual real voter fraud, and the current ruling party is complicit.
My non-Canadian vibe take is that it’s just settler infighting that First Nations don’t give two shits about.
Cant speak to quebec, but in alberta indigenous people have been strongly opposed to separatism
Look I don’t know anything about any of these movements but I wanted to mention that the Cascadian independence movement also includes a part of Canada
My understanding of the Cascadia movement from talking to British Columbian comrades is that it had very limited support, based mostly on the flag looking nice and British Columbians feeling like they had more in common with Washingtonians than with Albertans, and that a lot of its popular interest died out when Trump was elected.
greater idaho will try to ethnically cleanse cascadia, prime minister randy ford will send the mounties to help the cascadians, europe will give military support to the idahoans, and president tucker carlson will nuke ottowa.
Without clicking your spoiler, it’s my basic understanding that some Canadians (Alberta, I suppose — I couldn’t have told you the province if asked blindly) want to leave. I’m tentatively fine with that; however, I also know that most Canadians live within 100 miles of the US, simply due to the fact that further north than that, it gets stupid cold stupid fast. So while Canada is pretty big, the largely inhabited chunk is very small, and the northern bits are largely uninhabited.
Instead, I wonder if Canadians who wish to leave for more conservative lands would be better just going to the US. And Canada can take progressives from conservative areas. I feel like those Americans would make better Canadians than the Canadians who want to leave, and conversely, those Canadians would make better Americans than the Americans who want to leave — with the exception being that America shouldn’t be as bad as it is. But you see what I mean, I hope. Progressive Americans living in conservative areas are not going to vote the problems away. If you replace them with conservative Canadians and everyone has full citizenship and rights, nothing’s going to change.
If I were a progressive American in a conservative state, I would consider renouncing a US citizenship to become Canadian, provided I could get work, and live at least at the same quality of life I’m used to. I mean it’s gotta make sense.
I see people in Florida saying they want to vote on recreational drug use, but they don’t want to go to California because they want to keep their guns. So I’m thinking they could go to Oregon. They’ll trade hurricanes for wildfires, but they lose out on humidity, and wages/cost of living are higher. Legal drugs and pro guns. The only issue becomes family — I think it’s like 4000 miles away? Not sure exactly. Opposite coast and way north as opposed to way south.
I also know that most Canadians live within 100 miles of the US, simply due to the fact that further north than that, it gets stupid cold stupid fast.
This is true. But it’s also about more northern soil not being very good for farming. The last glacial period scraped away a lot of soil from much of modern Canada, pushing it southward into what is now the US midwest and northeast. That’s part of why those areas have such productive farmland. After the glaciers retreated the bare land looked mostly like this. There just hasn’t been enough time for natural processes to replenish the soil.
There are currently US influence campaigns pushing for Albertan “independence”, so you’re not far off the mark. Though most Albertans are very against the idea of joining the United States.
