The purpose of a system is what it does.
On that basis I’m fairly sure 90% of leftist infighters are actually right wing bots.
A 50-50 of right-wing bots and right-wing moderates who don’t want to be associated with the rest of the right-wing so they claim to be of the left (looking at you, liberals)
yall are saying different things!!
Something something firebomb a Walmart.
I kinda laugh because there was that one guy firebombing warehouses like not a year ago.
I was walking across the bridge when I saw someone standing on the ledge, looking ready to jump.
I rushed over and shouted, “Don’t do it! Think of the collective struggle! There is so much worth organizing for!”
They looked up, wiping away tears, and asked, “Like what?”
I said, “Well… are you a reactionary, or do you fight for systemic progress?”
They sniffed. “I fight for systemic progress.”
“Great!” I said. “Are you a liberal reformist, or an anti-capitalist leftist?”
“An anti-capitalist leftist,” they replied.
“Fantastic! Are you an anarchist or a Marxist?”
“Marxist.”
“Incredible! Marxist-Leninist, Trotskyist, or Maoist?”
“Trotskyist.”
“Amazing, comrades in the vanguard! Fourth International, or the International Socialist Tendency?”
“Fourth International!”
“Unbelievable! Posadist revolutionary permanent struggle, or orthodox United Secretariat?”
“Orthodox United Secretariat!”
“We are practically reading the exact same pamphlets! Now, tell me: when analyzing the Degenerated Workers’ State hypothesis regarding post-1928 Soviet bureaucratic collectivism, was the bureaucracy an emergent ruling class with unique exploitative relations to production, or merely a parasitic caste misallocating surplus value while preserving the proletarian property base?”
They frowned. “Clearly, state ownership meant it remained a distorted workers’ state, so the bureaucracy was merely a counter-revolutionary caste, not a true class.”
I took a step back, clenched my fist, and yelled:
“Die, class-collaborationist counter-revolutionary revisionist scab!”
…and shoved them off the ledge.
lol I’ve seen this before and even saw a little animation of it. Does anyone have a link? I’ve been looking for a few years now.
Its a bit off this classic.
Haha perhaps this was inspired by that but I’ve heard it with leftist sects too.
tale as old as time.
Remember, poor people rely on you to gatekeep the movement. Think about how people struggling with medical bills will feel if they find out you let a non-vegan help. Not on my watch.
purity progressives: “I mean yea, he wants universal healthcare, ending wars, abolishing ICE and the police, investing in schools and the arts, social safety nets and taxing the rich… but… he called RFK jr an r-word one time… so, he’s basically a nazi and I hope he dies”
Man I wish I lived in your parallel reality where those where the deal breakers preventing anti-fascist coalitions from forming. Rather than, you know, imperialism and genocide.
Yeah it sucks. But, y’know, if the imperialism and genocide is invariant between the options, I’m still gonna vote for the one doing fewer other terrible things 🤷🏼
Obviously I’m also going to do everything I can to get to a point where I don’t have an imperialist, genocidal government. Mutual aid, canvassing for leftists in the primaries, political organization, developing community, taking over small municipalities, labor organization, etc.
All of which is gonna be a lot harder now that this side has declared antifascists to be a terrorist organization, and arrests people for pamphlets.
That’s a point we can debate (not that I feel like doing so right now, but it’s at least connected to reality enough to be worth debating). My problem is with the parent commenter, who’s acting like all the “purity tests” are about trivial minutae and not how many children each candidate wants to bomb to death.
To be fair, the original post is about leftist infighting, not liberals. A lot of the leftist infighting is about trivial minutae.
But that just doesn’t happen on a scale relevant to American politics. The informal progressive coalition is basically solid. If there’s a place where this is supposed to be relevant, I don’t know about it.
But, y’know, if the imperialism and genocide is invariant between the options, I’m still gonna vote for the one doing fewer other terrible things 🤷🏼
What’s the worst that could happen if I let the democrats know that not even genocide will cost them the election? What’s the worst that could happen by further entrenching the oligarchic uniparty? Surely the democrats won’t ever put me in the camps!
Obviously I’m also going to do everything I can to get to a point where I don’t have an imperialist, genocidal government. Mutual aid, canvassing for leftists in the primaries, political organization, developing community, taking over small municipalities, labor organization, etc.
No critique here, glad to see at least one blue dog understands there’s other tools.
All of which is gonna be a lot harder now that this side has declared antifascists to be a terrorist organization, and arrests people for pamphlets.
As opposed to the other side who also arrested peaceful protesters on bogus charges. Who also beat up protesters. Who also broke up strikes. Who also hounded leftist organisers.
The difference is that the media is more critical of it now. People are much more agitated under Trump. Organizing is easier in many ways.if I let the democrats know that not even genocide will cost them the election
I keep seeing variations on this, and no one has been able to explain to me how that communication vector works. When has that ever worked? They just double down or shift right to try impotently to scoop “moderate Republicans”. If they really are a uniparty, do you think they really care that much about winning or losing anyway? They’re gonna keep supporting genocide no matter how many times they lose.
The point isn’t to try to persuade the DNC (by doing literally nothing), the point is to slow the bleeding while we build what comes next.
glad to see at least one blue dog understands there’s other tools.
Those are the main tools. Voting is the “other” tool. But it’s an easy tool, and it scales well with community organization. Seriously, take over a small municipality.
As opposed to the other side who also arrested peaceful protesters on bogus charges. Who also beat up protesters. Who also broke up strikes. Who also hounded leftist organisers
Exactly. "Also"s don’t matter when you make the choice. The things that are the same are gonna be the same either way. What matters are the differences, and there are obvious differences. Like labelling “aintifa” a terrorist organization.
People are much more agitated under Trump. Organizing is easier in many ways.
Of course, on the backs of already marginalized people. I don’t have the stomach to knowingly increase the suffering of others for political gain.
I keep seeing variations on this, and no one has been able to explain to me how that communication vector works. When has that ever worked?
Pretty simple. If I am doing a genocide, and you vote for me, it makes it clear you are at least apathetic about genocide.
The point isn’t to try to persuade the DNC (by doing literally nothing), the point is to slow the bleeding while we build what comes next.
Voting for the DNC does not slow the bleeding. Voting for the DNC makes it harder to build anything else.
Those are the main tools. Voting is the “other” tool. But it’s an easy tool, and it scales well with community organization. Seriously, take over a small municipality.
Depends on your analysis on electorialism in modern day America. I think it has some value locally, and in bigger elections its only positive use is to build momentum for leftist parties.
"Also"s don’t matter when you make the choice. The things that are the same are gonna be the same either way. What matters are the differences, and there are obvious differences. Like labelling “aintifa” a terrorist organization.
So not exactly, because I am arguing there is not practical difference between the two. I suppose the republicans are more overt, which is a positive, since it makes even liberals reel.
I don’t have the stomach to knowingly increase the suffering of others for political gain.
Sure you do. That’s what you do by voting for democrats.
If I am doing a genocide, and you vote for me, it makes it clear you are at least apathetic about genocide.
That doesn’t imply the converse, it doesn’t mean that not voting communicates any information about your stance on genocide, it just makes it clear that you’re apathetic in general.
Voting for the DNC makes it harder to build anything else.
How? The GOP is actively arresting people trying to build anything else. Attempts to co-opt a movement isn’t harder to overcome than prison.
I suppose the republicans are more overt, which is a positive, since it makes even liberals reel.
Again, they are causing additional suffering. You think it’s a positive because you’re not one of the additional people suffering. My empathy won’t allow me to ignore the additional suffering caused by my action, or lack thereof. I can’t just take an ideological stand when I know it will increase the suffering of others.
Constant suffering I’ve learned to cope with, since I’d be catatonic otherwise. But the people only on one list? I can’t just stand by, I have to at least save them. I don’t know how you can do it, my body physically revulses at just the thought of standing by even if the difference is only one person. I don’t think I’d feel human.
The ability to form political coalitions with people on an issue by issue basis
… is the ability to govern
Yeah, but that sounds quite liberal, and things “liberal” are a big no-no on this website 🗿(even if we’re talking socdems or demsocs).
I have been told by .ml users right out that socdems are basically Nazis and therefore I am the enemy.
Just don’t ask them why Stalin, who first got the idea of calling socdems “social fascists” and declaring them to be the enemy, was so cozy with actual nazis up until 1941. 🌝
Absolutely not, I will only work with people I 100% agree with, and I will happily throw the people I 75% agree with to the people I 0% agree with if I don’t get my way!
/s
Great piece of political wisdom:
“Never say no to a small piece of pie right now. There is time for more pie later.”
Very well said. Take a piece quick, instead of bitching you don’t have your fair share, pieless!
The only group acting like that is you “both sides aren’t the same” types, who call people tankies and commies and “purity testers”, and who post denigrating strawman memes like you did, all because others aren’t voting for the candidate you want them to, despite your so-called tankie enemies ostensibly agreeing on every social issue. What’s the difference between these two groups other than their voting strategy? That sounds like 75% agreement to me. And what is it when you demean these people and shoot down every candidate they’d actually support as “too radical”? Sounds like throwing them to the people you 0% agree with to me.
Maybe double check that sarcasm tag.
What candidate do I want people to vote for this election? What candidate am I shooting down as too radical?
Any third party candidate
Let’s say we had Harris and Mamdani in the running for Democratic nominee. Who would you want nominated? Who would you suggest people vote for?
And if Harris ended up the nominee, you’d want me to vote for her, wouldn’t you? And if I didn’t I’d be, in your mind, exactly the kind of “leftist infighter” and purity tester that you’re posting about, wouldn’t I?
cut to the chase, people making a political stunt to refuse to vote or a symbolic vote for a candidate they knew had no shot (Jill Stein)… all basically voted for Trump.
You can be mad at the DNC for their bullshit, and you’re justified. But when the cards were on the table, the time for debate was over… instead of fighting against the worst president in history… you said “they deserve it”. If that was your attitude, you lose the right to say that you’re against fascism. Because you still had some manner of power to choose, and you chose to not give a fuck.
the only people who voted for trump are the people who voted for Trump. any other vote was a vote against Trump
My thought process was not what you say it is.
My mental model of the election dynamic is more complicated than the one you presented, so bear with me.
My thought process was:
How did we even come to the point that Trump had a shot at winning? And I remember back when we said the same thing about Bush, and about Reagan before that. And then I had a horrible thought:
What if, just like how Reagan presided over the country becoming unbelievably worse, and then Bush presided over that continuing to happen… What if Trump is only the worst thing so far? What if we all vote for an establishment dem out of fear, just as last time, and the time before that, and the time before that, and the time before that… And even if they win (as they do every so often) they don’t really do what anyone wants, and America keeps becoming more and more horrible to live in, and people keep getting more desperate, education keeps getting worse, and suddenly - someone even worse than Trump is now a viable candidate?
After all, America has generally gotten nothing but worse since the 1980s. There have been some serious social wins, but they’re incredibly overshadowed by economic losses. Sure gay people can get married now, but they (ans everyone else) are also far closer to being effectively enslaved than they were 40 years ago…
So with all that in mind I thought, “if only those people in the past, before the consequences were too dire, had stuck to their guns through those hard times and forced the party to really represent them next time” and I realized that, to them, at their time, it must have felt as dire as it felt now to me.
So I made a sacrifice to my own current well-being, because I was trying to lay the groundwork for a greater well-being for everyone in the future. My decision had nothing to do with punishing others, nothing to do with not giving a fuck, and its sad to me that that’s the only explanation you can think of.
I want to say something like: “You lose the right to say you’re against fascism, because you refused to make a short term sacrifice for future generations, you refused to look at even contemporary history, you refused… Etc”
But I won’t say that, because you were trying to do the right thing too, and you just didn’t see the situation the same way as me. But you wanted the same thing. And even though from my perspective, you enabled fascism, I would never dare say you’re not against it just because I disagree with your methods. Try to do me the same courtesy.
the worst president in history
You know that and I know that. But dozens of millions of voting Americans are propaganda victims and do NOT know that.
The leaders we need, are ones who can reach out to at least some of those people and show them a path back to civil society.
The only big complaints I remember were about the Nazi from Maine
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Liberals and ableism, such a classic combination. Next do some homophobia or body-shaming.
Are you gonna post the same memes insulting half the democratic voters until they lose the midterms?
These posts just feel like pure projection on your part.
I will keep on shitposting on the “both sides bad” clowns that pop up like mushrooms every late election cycle, until they do something useful, thank you for asking!
We’re here all the time, you just only notice when CNN reminds you to go vote every two years
Well don’t let me stop you from supporting diet maga then, I’m sure the world will improve immensely with your corporate funded genocide supporters in charge…
awshit, you’re doing the thing!
“you don’t align 100% with my views, so you’re basically a MAGA nazi ruining the country”.
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awshit, you’re doing the thing!
"you don’t align 100% with my views, so you’re basically a MAGA nazi ruining the country”.
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If the opinion of me and those like me can be dismissed, why are you so obsessed with it? Why do you worry so much?
Hey, aren’t you the guy who just called me a fascist enabler for not voting Kamala? Ohhh the irony
The difference is that voting for corporate democrats is harm reduction and abstaining is leaving room for the unabashed fascists.
Voting for corporate Democrats is making room for worse fascists in the future, abstaining is forcing corporate Democrats to start representing their constituents
^ something that should have been understood decades ago, and you still don’t understand today
No it doesn’t. You have a two party system which makes things much more complicated.
- Corporate dems are payed by their donors to keep the left at bay, if they do it through policy while in power or through playing opposition doesn’t matter that much.
- As long as you have only two parties people have nowhere to go, there will not be enough pressure to change the party.
- A low voter participation does not lead to systemic change, it leads to even less democracy overall
- If you believe democrats would move to the left through less voters than the same would be true for republicans when we elect democrats.
- You are not the majority, the voters show us again and again that they will not stand behind progressives in big enough numbers. This does not only go for the US but worldwide.
- If you do not vote you still carry blame, Gaza might have looked the same but people wouldn’t get shot in the street by ice. Governtment agencies wouldn’t be reduced to a minimum and so on and so forth. There is real world harm done by republicans right now and if you go back Nixon and reagen did immense damage to the country to this day.
Its just not that easy if your activism is reduced to “not voting” than it is completely meaningless.
Hey, that doesn’t actually work because they don’t give a shit. You aren’t “teaching the establishment a lesson” because they don’t actually need your vote to enrich themselves. Meanwhile the Overton window steadily slides to the right.
But maybe when the opposition is trump you should avoid to abstain?
voting is not harm reduction
Harm reduction is when you further entrench genocidal fascist oligarchs <- you
Yup, that the nuance is lost on you is expected. Have the day you voted for!
Well, I didn’t vote, so the only one having the day they voted for is you :)
TIL “Rights for Trans people” is diet “No Rights for Trans people”, and it makes no difference to real people since both sides same.
Care to favor us with some more political insights, Rousseau?
As a trans person living under a far-right government, you should go fuck yourself if you support the Democratic party.
Ah yes trans people, famously a group Kamala ran on protecting. As she said, when asked about their persecution: “They should follow the law” and as she concluded when she lost “too much woke identity politics”. What a bulwark! And what a record she has of protecting trans people! Yes she would certainly have protected trans people from persecution, that much is clear from all she said and did.
What is the Trump admistration’s policy on trans people, you absolute piece of shit?
Nice whataboutism you got there. Care to stay on topic and stop deflecting?
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I’m playing the long game, I’ve secretly infiltrated Lemmy in order to… get people to do the world’s most basic thing against the rising fascists. I’m caught!
The previous comment was deleted - you’re getting people to participate in direct action?
People’s Front of Judea or GTFO
I thought we were the popular front?
spits on the ground Splitters!
Hilarious coming from someone who defines criticizing a center-right party as “Leftist Infighting”.
Always happy to provide a lil giggle in the meme comm 😎
I support cooperation between various lib-left factions but authoritarians are our enemies no matter the flavor.
Good, keep infighting
It’s not infighting if we have huge, unbridgeable ideological differences.
That’s not to say we can’t be temporary allies against a greater foe like fascism but there can be no unity with people who ultimately want us dead.
It’s not infighting if (…)
You know, thats what we all say.
(…) if we have huge, unbridgeable ideological differences
The difference: I don’t expect revolutionary states to be perfect.
That’s not to say we can’t be temporary allies against a greater foe like fascism
Step one in the fight against fascism would probably be to stop voting for fascists. The democrats are also fascists.
No, you don’t expect revolutionary states to be better than anything. Not even fascism. The only reason I would consider allying with you at all is that the fascists are a much more imminent threat at the moment. But that could easily change.
I am not willing to fight for mass murder, political repression, and at best, a social democratic welfare state. We can just skip the first two and join with social democratic parties if we want that. But personally I aim higher.
Before primaries? Sure by all means, infight!
After primaries and before general election? Unite against fascist Republicans and support Democrats. Pretty simple.
How do you know someone is a nazi? Anyone who denies republicans are worse are themselves a fascist.
Funny, my litmus test starts at “do they support a genocide?” and then move on to things like “do they want to expand the militaristic police surveillance state?” and “are they running on being tough on immigrants?” and “do they do violent crackdowns on peaceful protesters?” and “do they protect womens rights?” and “do they protect queer people?” and “do they throw minorities and marginalised groups under the bus in order to appease right wing fanatics?” and “are they warmongers?”
Funny how that is. Funny how some of us only seem to care about whether or not their team is winning, while others care about what the teams are doing. Very funny.
Fresh ml account absolutely SPAMMING anti-voting shit as midterms approach. Shocking.
lol right. No excuse for this stuff. Bot or human, they’re only helping Republicans by spreading this bullshit.
Everyone Who Disagrees With Me Is A Bot.
Either that and school has just started and I got tired of just seeing hexbear stuff @BanMeFromPosting@hexbear.net
I didn’t say you’re a bot. I implied you’re a propagandist.
Go do your thing on hexbear instead, they love capitulation to fascists.
Well you know that is funny because I guess I’m more able to step back and look at the big picture from a rational standpoint; you know, logically looking at every single issue:
- Are Democrats better than Republicans on support for Ukraine against the Russian Genocide? — Yes.
- Are Democrats better than Republicans on LGBTQ+ Rights? — Yes.
- Are Democrats better on women’s rights and abortion rights — Yes.
- Are Democrats better on antitrust? — Yes. (See what they did to Ticketmaster and what Trump reversed).
- Are Democrats better than Republicans on Climate Change — Yes. (Republicans backed out of Paris Climate Agreement)
- Are Democrats better at handling global pandemics? — Yes. (better science adherence; Republicans backed out of WHO).
- Are Democrats better at not committing January 6’s? — Yes.
- Is ALL opposition to Palestinian genocide in government from Democrats? (Abdul, Mamdani, Bernie Sanders, Tlaib, etc.) — YES.
So, anyone who is not supporting Democrats over Republicans is of course enabling an objectively-worse party and President (Trump). I mean if I was Palestinian I certainly would take my choice of any Democrat over any Republican! Worse than that, they are objectively stating that they do not care about the other issues mentioned (and this is non-exhaustive).
Single-issue voters are bad, even when it comes to allegations of genocide (because there is a gradient to even one genocide, let alone the second you conveniently neglect to discuss).
Thus, the default position should be: Anyone willing to allege Republicans are equal or better than Democrats should be treated as a nazi because their ill-logic in fact supports the worst evil, the nazi.
(It’s kinda like that saying, “If there’s a nazi at a table and ten other people there, you got 11 nazis.” Well, if you have a nazi, a Dem, and someone saying “BoTh SiDes!”, then you’ve got 2 nazis.)
- Is ALL opposition to Palestinian genocide in government from Democrats? (Abdul, Mamdani, Bernie Sanders, Tlaib, etc.) — YES.
What are you talking about? You know that Republicans like MTG exist right? And you know that AOC herself voted against MTG’s Iron Dome defunding bill right?
Are Democrats better than Republicans on support for Ukraine against the Russian Genocide?
Liberals and labelling everything a genocide in order to cheapen the term: classic.
The war in Ukraine would not have happened if it werent for the agressive postering of the democrats, so I’m gonna have to say no.Are Democrats better than Republicans on LGBTQ+ Rights?
Yeah man that’s why they throw trans people and drag queens under the bus every chance they get. Thats why their response to persecution is that “they should follow the law.” That’s why their takeaway from losing the election is that they were too woke. When the republicans aren’t targeting queer people, then the democrats are.
Gonna say no again.Are Democrats better on women’s rights and abortion rights.
Yeah like when they codified Roe v. Wade. Or like when they did anything to stop Roe v. Wade to get overturned.
Gonna give it a no.Are Democrats better on antitrust? — Yes.
Talk about single-issue and then narrow the scope to this lol. The democrats are just as bad at strike breaking and being anti-union. The democrats are just as beholden to corporate interests. (See how they never affect any actual change, like with Ticketmaster.)
Big old no again.Are Democrats better than Republicans on Climate Change — Yes. (Republicans backed out of Paris Climate Agreement)
The famous Paris Agreement! The do-nothing treaty with no punishment for breaking it, which the democrats did nothing to uphold when they were part of it! What did they do though? Whoops thats right, massive fracking contracts, expanded military and so on and so forth. Another no.
Are Democrats better at handling global pandemics? — Yes. (better science adherence; Republicans backed out of WHO).
So far the main example to take would be COVID which had lockdown initiated under Trump, had Trump hand out more stimulus checks, and the lockdown was lifted by a democrat president, despite the fact the pandemic was - and is - still ongoing. Under a democrat president the public tracking of COVID was wound down until it was made accessible only with wastewater-records, which were then also made nearly impossible to access and use. Gotta say that does not seem like a government capable of handling a pandemic, gotta make it a no.
Are Democrats better at not committing January 6’s? — Yes.
Seems like an argument against Democrats, since you’re arguing that republicans are insane power hungry fascists looking to take complete, total, permanent power. Kinda seems like the democrats should have some sort of opposition prepared.
Is ALL opposition to Palestinian genocide in government from Democrats? (Abdul, Mamdani, Bernie Sanders, Tlaib, etc.) — YES.
BERNIE SANDERS? Mister “both sides”? Alright, you’ve lost the plot. In your eyes saying “Netanyahu bad” is enough. And even then this is once again a pathetic attempt at moving goal posts. Was the party committing a genocide? Yes. Is the party supporting the genocide still? Also Yes.
I mean if I was Palestinian I certainly would take my choice of any Democrat over any Republican!
If you were a Palestinian you would be too busy burying your family and scrounging for scraps of food to be able to give a shit about what color political party does the bombing and starving, you absolute freak.
Single-issue voters are bad, even when it comes to allegations of genocide.
Should have guessed from your “Russian genocide” that you were some variation of liberal zionist.
NEWSFLASH ASSHOLE: YOU ARE A SINGLE-ISSUE VOTER, YOUR ISSUE IS “not Trump”.
As has been painstakingly detailed, people opposing Democrats due to genocide are not single-issue, it is just the ultimate issue and even that is one Democrats cannot do basic shit on.Well, if you have a nazi, a Dem, and someone saying “BoTh SiDes!”, then you’ve got 2 nazis.
On that we agree. The nazi and the dem are nazis.
Not true, its 95%
