An oldie, but a goodie
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I feel it’s equally important to point ot that Torvalds recognized his toxic behavior, apologized for it, and took steps to rectify it.
In an email to the Linux Kernel Mailing List, which also addresses the kernel update of Linux 4.19-rc4, Torvalds writes: “I need to change some of my behavior, and I want to apologize to the people that my personal behavior hurt and possibly drove away from kernel development entirely.”
“I am going to take time off and get some assistance on how to understand people’s emotions and respond appropriately.”
That was seriously admirable. From memory he actually did improve quite a lot after that as well.
I’ve heard he’s not perfect but he doesn’t lose his temper anymore and has only gotten better with age. I respect anyone who can self reflect and introspect and come out a better person.
Yeah, shouting at your subordinates in public is utter bullshit.
So is breaking the userspace
So two wrongs make a right? Or could this have been a civil private email instead? And if civil private conversations aren’t working, then it’s time to part ways.
A civil public email would have been fine.
Acceptable, yes. But a good manager knows not to shine a spotlight on the mistakes of the team. There’s nothing to gain keeping it public that you wouldn’t also gain by keeping it private. But your team’s morale is kept high if you sing their praises instead of their shortcomings.
I get what your saying, but i feel like the aggressively public development model means that more could be public here than i would accept on another team.
This probably helped others not to make the same mistake
Of working with Linus? Yes, it probably did.
What? I’m talking about breaking userspace?
I’m really glad you added this, that was pretty awful to read.
It’s sad we don’t get this energy anymore. Who will keep the fuckers in line now
Not going to touch the general toxicity as it’s something Linus has already apologized and worked through with professional help, but I love the attitude when it comes to responsibility.
Far too often it’s easier to blame someone else for error.“No this is our problem, and I’m ashamed you’re trying to blame someone else for it” is respectable take
His style of being direct, having a high quality threshold and calling out bullshit immediately and bluntly is why the Linux kernel went from a university project to powering everything from lightbulbs to super computers. I think it kind of ridiculous that this demonstrably effective style got framed as “toxic” just because he hurt a few people’s fee-fees.
You can be direct and call out bullshit without swearing and name calling. While the content of this sounds reasonable, the tone definitely isn’t. If someone talked to me like that I’d tell them to fuck right off.
Yes you could but he didn’t and clearly his style was self evidently effective. And I’d add that if you’ve ever read the LKML archives, that these rants were rare and usually preceded by long chains of discussion before it reached that point.
Doesn’t make it right. Michael Jackson’s dad abused his kids and they became world famous artists, doesn’t mean abusing your kids is acceptable or should be seen as such.
This is a nonsensical comparison
It’s not a comparison, it’s an analogy. Important distinction.
Except it’s not a distinction at all.
analogy (n.) - a comparison between one thing and another, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification.
It’s a rotten analogy. Comparing Linus having a go at some volunteers is not analogous, or comparable to a father abusing kids.
Yes you could but he didn’t and clearly his style was self evidently effective.
Depends on how you define “effective”. Because by his own admission, it gets shit done, but also alienates people in the project and turns off others from joining it.
So yeah, you’ll get the update pushed, and it’ll work, but down the line you find yourself struggling to keep up without the help of people that don’t want to work with you.
Linus’ mistake is a classic one: really self-sufficient tech person doing fantastic work with a team but not appreciating that there’s a whole social layer to it that is every bit as important as the standards and procedures at keeping everything working.
I define effective by the fact it was self evidently effective. No need to split hairs or dissemble here. Linux is objectively, indisputably the most important piece of code in the world. Everything else, such as a the context free boo hoo about some times when he has had a go at people is just noise.
Seems like the man himself disagrees with you, since he saw it as a big enough problem to get professional help and make long lasting changes. 🤷♂️
Or he’s just playing the game within the current “social layers” that have attached to or are inherit to the project to placate those who require placating. Not like pubic figures haven’t had to blow sunshine up asses to shut the the “whiners” up before. And if so, maybe those lasting changes are trivial because it was never a major habit to begin with and rare. Its was just an approach to get the result. But you’ve to show the public you care (even if you don’t) and talk about how you worked real hard and put in the work. (Even if the work was trivial)
Sure you can. But the evidence i see in my immediate vicinity is that informations go in through one ear and straight out through the other without holding on to anything if presented in in a none swearing or name calling manner. It hurts but it works.
Oh noes he used bad wordsies? My fee-fees!
Demonstrably effective
Where’s the logic in looking at something successful and picking a singular thing to be responsible? What seems more likely is you are looking for an idea you are attached to that exists adjacent to something successful. It’s like a Mormon looking for successful Mormon CEOs to then claim the company’s success is due to the Mormon work ethic. It’s like how in Whiplash the Charlie Parker story is venerated and seen as explanatory by the characters.
The logic is simple. This is s his style and it demonstrably worked. I’m sure you could point to someone else’s style that also works in another context but that’s irrelevant.
But did it work because of the style or in spite of it? No reason to believe it wouldn’t be even more successful if he had been less abrasive like he is now.
Because of it, quite obviously.
How is that obvious? Especially because it’s become even more successful after he’s mellowed out?
“Especially because it’s become even more successful after he’s mellowed out?”
You state that as if its also “obvious”. How is this a fact? How is it obvious? Is it more successful because of his mellowing or irrespective of it? On its face, seems to me we cant nod our head in agreement to your sudden assertion any more than arc’s assertion that Linus’ initial style worked.
You seem to want arc to provide some sort of metric or proof to back up his assertion. Well, where is yours? Where’s your metric/data?
Way to infantalize the people calling him out while excusing his childish tantrums.
Randomly blaming pulseaudio when talking about 100% CPU usage by KDE. I don’t like pulseaudio, but this is childish indeed.
There is a difference between a rant and a tantrum. If you read the post, you could see very clearly he makes a point very forcefully.
Okay. How about: don’t lash out at people when you’re mad.
Way to infantalize … his childish tantrums.
Come on dude. Either there’s a standard here or there isn’t.
Uh yeah. Childish behavior is childish. Holding people to a higher standard is not.
… he hurt a few people’s fee-fees.
Way to infantalize the people calling him out while excusing his childish tantrums.
You’re infantilizing Linus’ expression of anger, just the same as the person you’re replying to is infantilizing people who’re upset by it.
Either they’re both bad, or they’re both acceptable - or you’re effectively saying that infantilization is fine, but only towards people whose behaviour you disapprove of.
One behavior is inherently childish. One is not.
One is objectively the attitude of an infant and thus does not require the act of infantalization in order to be framed as such. This is not the double-standard gotcha that you think it is.To rephrase, one more time:
The act of calling out childish behaviour is not childish.One behavior is inherently childish. One is not. One is objectively the attitude of an infant and thus does not require the act of infantalization in order to be framed as such.
No, it isn’t, and this is a subjective opinion on your part. Not everyone agrees with you, so it’s not objective. Even what exactly is ‘childish’ behaviour is subjective, and arguably culturally dependent.
His behaviour is pretty much by definition, that of an adult. An adult with poor impulse control, poor anger management skills, sure. But childish? That’s a value judgement which contains no insight likely to reach anyone. It adds nothing to the conversation.
Use less reductionist words to explain why it’s bad.
Or to rephrase: Linus’ reply isn’t bad because it is childish. All calling it childish, or infantile, communicates is your own judgement.
Also; describing your judgement as ‘calling out’ - particularly when this is behaviour he has since admitted was poor, and has taken time out to address - just reads like you’re using the language of social justice to justify judgemental language.
I think too many people get upset about swearing. It brings a strong emphasis, it’s not disrespect imo. Knowing how Linus is, I’d take that response in stride. I appreciate his direct approach especially to the brazen arrogance of someone too full of themselves to see themselves as wrong. It wouldn’t be a great way to start a conversation, but as an ender it’s terribly effective. He called a fucking idiot a fucking idiot. That shouldn’t be toxic. Not everything that hurts someone’s tender feels is toxic. The intent should be taken into consideration.
I agree on the first part. However this is from 2012 and in the meantime Linus himself realized and admitted that he was not proud of behaving like that and took real measures and seeked help in order to improve himself.
I totally agree. I have mad respect for Linus for the work he’s done and the immense amount of retardation he’s had to sift and fight his way through.
I have very little respect for the people critiquing his behavior while contributing nothing of value themselves.
Hell yeah. But it’s not considered good anymore, everyone has to be very nice and whatnot. Too bad imo but I guess less hurt feelings.
It’s easier to label other people toxic rather than finding flaws in themselves. More people will agree with someone being toxic, because deflection as a tactic got so ingrained in people that they don’t know better.
Torvalds got professional help for that. Even he acknowledged that it was a problem.
Exactly. It might not be good to be on the receiving end, but the chain of discussion that went before these rants should have given people the clue they needed to stop while they were ahead.
Tough love isn’t toxicity, even if Linus had to grovel a bit to divert the Karens elsewhere.
Shut the fuck up.
Stop breaking user space
Getting angry = tOxiCK i cry evertem
Everyone gets angry, but this is not a constructive way to communicate what someone else needs to do. You can express all of this without belittling and swearing at someone. Being angry is fine, taking it out on other people is rude and unnecessary.
How to communicate with someone who in conversation about KDE randomly blames pulseaudio and opensuse?
He basically has one rule and one rule only… we don’t break user space… IMO, if you break that one rule, I believe he has the right to be angry. It’s not constructive, but I wouldn’t hold it against him.
If he was my boss and he treated me like this I would absolutely hold it against him! Honestly I don’t care how much an employee fucks up, there is no excuse for abusing them.
Even more so because Torvalds is not his boss and the guy is a volunteer that is not being paid for his contribution.
I’m glad Torvalds was the bigger man and got help for his temper.Red Hat email, not a volunteer.
Where is abuse part? More like victimblaming from Mauro.
Yeah, I completely agree, the guy’s a duche, blaiming others for his mistake (assumption, that leads to a shitty PR, which is a mistake).
As I said, if I did that, I would gladly take the heat from Linus. Own up to your mistake. Yes, you do deserve to be called names. You’re a maintainer for the most wide spread kernel in the world. “But I don’t get paid…”. You can quit at any time pal, no one is forcing you to do it.
Own up to your mistake.
To be fair he did it after Linus’ speech.
I posted 3 screenshots in comments here.
The virgin IT tech tears in here are real.
So I recently had a conversation with some who though Linus Torvalds (kernel) and Linus Sebastian (Linus Tech Tips) was the same person.
That was a pretty funny and confusing conversation.Imagine Torwalds doing reviews of old CPU coolers and completely losing his shit 🤣🤣🤣
Yes, please! 🍿
you know… that could be YT gold right there.
Fuck it’s me.
I am Spartacus!
I thought he branched out to tech tips as a way of making extra money. Never seen the tech tips myself and with the controversy not too long ago probably never will.
No, I am Spartacus!
I’ve only ever heard of torvalds because of pages like this one and since I don’t watch LTT videos often, I’ve only ever heard his first name connected with the channel.
As an entertainment show about tech, it’s a pretty decent show to watch, I wouldn’t use it to base my decisions on, but if you want to hear someone talk about tech stuff in a somewhat entertaining way I’d say give them ago, Linus can be a bit much sometimes but the rest of the crew are alright.
But LTT-Linus is 17 years younger and Canadian. O_O
Time to merge both Linus branches together into a Linus Hivemind.
I was a couple weeks into using Linux before this was made clear to me and the world made a lot more sense.
The trick is to listen to the pronunciation. Linus of LTT pronounces it as Linus, while Linus of Torvalds uses either Linus or Linus, but he doesn’t mind if people call him Linus.
/s
“You are HIV aladeen”
Yeah, those mailing lists used to have some quite funny stuff; my favorite so far is smth along the lines of “whoever thought this was a good idea should be retroactively aborted”.
But, on the other hand, damn it’s toxic. Should’ve really sucked to work on the kernel back then.
I was curious as I couldn’t help but laugh, but damn dude. That is rough. Hilarious looking at it now, but I feel bad for whomever was at the receiving end.
Of course, I’d also suggest that whoever was the genius who thought it was a good idea to read things ONE FUCKING BYTE AT A TIME with system calls for each byte should be retroactively aborted. Who the fuck does idiotic things like that? How did they not die as babies, considering that they were likely too stupid to find a tit to suck on?
That’s some quality venom.
Gold
Someone else pointed out that he actually apologized for being toxic sometimes and took some time off as a kernel maintainer because of that. Nice to see.
This happened on kernel 3.8, he stepped down on 4.18. That’s plenty of time time for as lot more fuckups.
It’s not really a fuckup it’s like a fucksideways.
The kernel was safe, only feelings were hurt
I meant Linus’ behavior was a fuckup. And he probably fucked up a lot between this example and his stepping down.
Was the product impacted? Did Mauro get his commit together?
If the product was undamaged he was just rude. A fuckup means he hurt the mission, he hurt his goals
He did hurt the mission. Plenty of kernel maintainers have left, and those were people who had been with the project for years. Losing experienced people to toxicity 1000% harms both the project and the product.
In almost instances of Linus going off on one in public it is because maintainers weren’t doing their jobs (to act as quality gatekeepers), or particular developers thinking they could steam roll road changes through if they kept submitting them, or not listening to what Linus was saying. I remember Linus used to ream out Hans Reiser a lot (the guy who was subsequently imprisoned for murdering his wife) because he constantly tried to get ReiserFS into the kernel despite serious issues Linus had with it.
So generally when you see a rant, there is a history behind it and the rant itself is directed with a point. I also think it’s self evident that the kernel has benefited from this “benevolent dictator” model. I’m sure some people have gotten all precious over their feelings being hurt. The rest raised their game and the result has been a code quality standard you’ll probably never see anywhere else.
Did that demonstrably happen?
If there’s a surplus of talent (sounds like Mauro was dead weight) then at most he was just rude on Mauro’s way out the door.
I’m not saying it’s cool to be rude, but if it’s Linus’ review then you get what you get. To be butthurt about someone being rude to you should motivate you to learn your code interactions better. (In this case error handling)
You seem eager to pose this “if the product was undamaged” as if you can quantify what might have happened differently, but then in a comment below you ask someone else to prove that maintainers left.
It might shock you to learn that products are developed by people. Actual people stay or leave and work wildly differently based on things like respect, expectations, and being in a hostile environment.
Want proof of that? Go work on an actual project with a team sometime.
edit - And this isn’t even accounting for the ways toxic communication impedes wider adoption of a product
People who could be easily replaced. It’s a non issue.
I do work on software teams, and don’t conduct myself like Linus, because I’m not Linus. That pattern of communication isn’t available to me, an average engineer.
But if someone spoke to me that way (and they have) I took it as a clear signal I need to level up and act right. Not an invitation to feel bad about myself.
Linux has clearly not missed out on wide adoption in any way.
Honestly, I maybe get why some people are too sensitive to work in such conditions, but from my professional experience, I’d much rather prefer getting angry mail explaining why my actions are stupid, than everyone being nice to one another but the codebase is utter garbage and everything falls apart, which happens a lot in private companies.
Ugh, having been on the receiving end, this type of belittlement is the worst, and breeds resentment, factionalism, and a host of other toxic elements in the workplace.
Irrespective of the validity of his critique, prima donna developers are the worst and I would start looking for jobs elsewhere because programming is already stressful enough, don’t want to start worrying about the people.
Like, I get how it’s funny, but I would hate to get this kind of shit from someone I respect. Would really mess me up, personally
So publicly, too. People have quit over it.
If someone whom I respected shat a bit in email about my work product, I’d be sad for a bit. Then I’d read it again and understand it’s my work product and I am not my work. I can make mistakes and I can fix them, and fixing mistakes is how we get awesome.
I have received negative feedback. And I did feel just a little butthurt about it. But it was in NJ and I was new, and didn’t see from the first read that Buddy was expressing frank and honest concerns about my work product and not me. I’m embarrassed to say how long it took me to clue in, but I did. And we worked through my mistakes and I was the better for it. And I learned.
And when he said my work didn’t suck as much, I knew I was improving, because I could trust him.
You need to learn honest from asshole.
I get what you mean, but there are ways to say you fucked up, without calling you expletives. Some days, you get angry and scream at someone, but it doesn’t really make it feel amazing for the party being screamed at.
I didn’t mean it was mean from him to give him feedback or correct him, but the way he said it was a bit overblown.
As already stated it’s less about the facts being communicated and more about the way they’re being communicated.
I would posit that the mismatch in the style of communication lead to you needing more time to clue in. And in that way, the initial feedback might have been an inefficient way to relay the point.
However it’s also entirely possible that trying to package it in a better way, the point of the feedback-giver would have gotten lost, leading you not to clue in at all.
Communication is hard, especially tailoring it to the expected audience. That being said I don’t think being an asshole is ever ok, unless it directly saves lives or something. 😅
That’s why you should never put people on a pedestal. There are a lot of people I admire, but I always try to imagine them being stupid assholes most of the time to balance things out in my head.
It’s nice to have an idol to aspire to, but they don’t say “don’t meet your heroes” for no reason…
Not me, I’d just take a closer look at what I’ve done and see where my mistakes are.
It’s not like we’re married or something, I don’t live with him. It’s just an email, get over it.
I don’t think having tough skin should be a prerequisite in IT.
You can tell a person they made a mistake or are wrong without being a cunt about it.
When the person doesn’t see anything wrong with what they did, yes I belive I have the right to be a cunt about it.
I’d give as good as I got and we’d be fine. Not everyone is a spineless crybaby who melts down at the first hint of disapproval. Are you all little children?
Edit: Stupid question, apparently. Good thing it was rhetorical.
Wow, you are sooooooo tough, guy!!!
So strong and manly!!!
I’m sure you have so many girlfriends!!!
They might even smoke weed
NO WAY!!!
THE DEVILS LETTUCE?!!??!
That’s so toxic. You may need therapy
Guy called me spineless crybaby. It’s fair to hit back.
I hope I never meet you. You really don’t know how to human.
This is way beyond a first hint of disapproval.
Found the Karen.
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He’s the Gordon Ramsey of programming. THE KERNEL IS FUCKING RAAAWWWW!!!
I like the discussion this has generated around toxicity and professionalism, but I’m still very amused by the fact that he censored himself in the last line after not doing so for the rest of the message.
Absolutely awful shit and I would be ashamed for decades if I acted like this to another person.
Really shows the worst of him here. It’s rare that he becomes this toxic and humiliating.
To his credit he undertook sensitivity training and is a much, much, better communicator now.
He used to channel the whole juvenile angry-but-gifted programmer crap, accepted (eventually) the criticisms and did the right thing: changed.
I agree. In a leadership role it’s one thing what you say to a person in front of others and a completely different thing what you say when alone with them…
To be fair, if he said what he wrote here in private, it’d still be extremely bad leadership.
Obviously he should correct them and point out why, but maybe not trash on them entierly.
Lmao he is often celebrated for his put downs
I think he’s being fair and balanced. Also please stop calling mild irritation “toxicity”, it only makes you sound like a whiney douchebag who cries whenever they’re questioned about anything.
If this is not toxic, what is? Where do you draw the line? Would you call this email professional?
Fair and balanced in the same way as Fox News. :)
This was anything but “mild irritation”. Makes me wonder what does a great irritation look like for you
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Please don’t ever have kids.
I find this kinda insulting in an unnecessarily personal way. How is this comment not toxic in its own right? Kinda gross imo.
Removed by mod
First of all, this is horrible and no one should talk like that.
But it’s funny that he censored the word “fucking” as if that crossed some line
It’s disgusting that this post has not been removed, has a 96% postive vote ratio, has over 1K upvotes and is sitting at the top of All after almost a day.
This isn’t a Linux meme. It’s a celebration of abuse, abusive behaviour and abusive people.
All the people ITT condoning or making even the slightest accommodations for this behaviour ought to be ashamed and need to take a good, long look in a mirror.
What are the moderators of this community thinking? Are you reading this stuff? Do some of you agree with any of it?
Of all the things to celebrate about Linus and Linux this is not one of them.
There is no value in leaving this post up. There is nothing to be learned or gained by revealing just how gross some supposed Linux supporters may be.
Does anyone ITT seriously think this is how Linus or Linux developers want to be remembered and celebrated for their dedication and decades of toil?
Do you think anyone that’s been on the receiving end of this kind of abuse on the job or in the home wants to jump onto Lemmy today to see this celebration of abusive and awful behaviour.
There are no excuses to be made. It doesn’t matter that this happened many years ago and that Linus has managed to overcome behaving like this. The post itself is now the issue.
The many comments that have made even the slightest excuse for this kind of behaviour are awful and damaging to the reputations of Linus, Linux and the Linux community.
I like that Linus is so strict on not breaking user space because this obviously aids with compatibility and it’s probably a big part of why rolling releases work.
But I sure hope Linus’ eventual successor won’t be toxic and…cringe. It’s hard to take someone serious when he’s raging this much.
The good news is Linus did eventually learn this isn’t okay and took some time off to reflect on how to approach these things better.
He still doesn’t tolerate things like he was responding to here, still responds to them firmly and directly, but doesn’t rant, yell, or hurtle insults
Good point, didn’t even realize this was from 2012.
I like that Linus is so strict on not breaking user space because this obviously aids with compatibility and it’s probably a big part of why rolling releases work.
I think kernel still has compatibility with paleolithic glibc enabled by default
Why cringe? I find it fun.
Well you’re broken and hurting inside.
What a nasty response
This is hilarious to read from outside, but I am definitely not speaking like this to my colleagues
Damn that was probably very hard to read for Mauro. This is something you never want to receive as Mail in your job. On the other hand it is good that Linux priorities fixing the kernel instead of letting other developers fix your code.
