Hot take time: LOTR isn’t reactionary for the same reason that reactionaries love it, which is the same reason subsequent authors fail to imitate it. It is a genuine artifact of the earlier mode of thought reactionaries want to return to. Tolkien, at least to some degree, in a way that only an upper class englishman still could by the 20th century, authentically believed in the divine right of kings. He could write about the rightful king returning to his throne and making all well again and really mean it with his whole chest. Subsequent authors can and have repeated those tropes to death but it always rings hollow because deep down they cant help but find the idea quaint even as genre conventions and market forces drive them to write it again and again.
Lord of the rings, along with a lot of literature from like 50 years prior is pretty much free from the irony and lack of “earnestness” that modernism and postmodernism brought to the medium. Tolkien was a medievalist romantic (not derogatory) and he wrote like one. His style was already anachronistic in the 1930s, because it’s much more reminiscent of Goethe or Byron, whose time had already passed, while much different works like Metamorphosis or The Grapes of Wrath were being published. Only someone with both a thorough understanding of northern European medieval literature, it’s themes and forms, and a very keen imagination could’ve done what he did, and do it so well.
I think one can like LOTR while realizing that there’s something in the text that really resonates with fascists. It has long been one of the (otherwise very chauvinist and Anglo-allergic) Italian right"s favorite books. Analysis of the text (and many works of literature) shouldn’t stop at “is this piece of literature fascist beyond a reasonable doubt?” it should be something like “who wrote this, for whom, and did they succeed in connecting with that audience? What do people find in it?”
That being said, someone on this site posted a series of essays about how the idyllic life of the shire is actually a feudal hellscape… If anyone remembers it post it pls.
Edit: nevermind, found it
If these people did a modicum of research they’d come across On Fairy Stories, an essay written by Tolkien that essentially is his creative manifesto. Death of the author blah blah blah, like sure you could have a fascist reading of it but the author is really clearly not going for that and really hated the nazis a lot, they shot at his kids as well as what we already know the nazis got up to. He of course also had huge beef with their appropriation of Germanic and Norse mythology to their own ends and considering he had started his work obsessed with the same thing while Hitler was getting gassed in the trenches, he got there first and was better at it. The text itself takes a good bit of effort to make fascist. There’s monarchist elements for damn sure but fascists didn’t invent racism or bloodline based ideas of superiority, they just ran with it in a modern way and that racism and superiority manifests itself in very not fascist ways unless its a villain doing it. And villains are bad.
Fuck the characters who seem to see the world as fading or lesser than it used to be generally have that belief because power was more concentrated both politically and metaphysical. That power has been diffused into the world over those millenia. Just like how Arda is Morgoth’s Ring in a closer to literal sense in that he diminished himself to further influence the world and can’t truly be defeated without also destroying the world. Like…sure the elves aren’t as mighty and the numenorean bloodline is thin, but look where that got the elves and men in the first place. Half a continent and a bigass island sunk into the ocean and 2 attempted wars against the divine. The first against morgoth lasted way longer but never needed to happen in the first place and was for sure a phyrric victory, most of the continent was missing after and the numenoreans decided to fucking attack and dethrone god and that’s after doing widespread settler colonialism and slaughtering the descendants of the same people they came from who fought morgoth and could have gone to numenor but didn’t wanna. Even keeping something like Rivendell or Lothlorien going requires putting a lot of yourself into the world and for Tolkien where immortal beings are ‘part of’ the universe and less distinct from nature than men there’s a bit of themselves that get locked into those works and their maintenance, lord of the rings was low key as hell compared to previous conflicts. So the world was really better off without these mighty kings and warriors. The third age had hobbies and the rest didn’t
Dude I just want to read about hobbits smoking weed.
The Palantir for which the company is named is one of Sarumon’s artifacts, a “seeing stone” which allows observation of the outside world and communication with distant beings. It is through this in the first place that Sarumon is first contacted by Sauron and convinced to become a collaborator with evil. Because Gandalf is out in the world grilling, he is vaccinated against such appeals, but because Sarumon just spends his life in his magic goon cave thinking about how powerful and smart he is, he’s easily brought over to Sauron’s side by flattery and logic like “actually it’s good to join the dark side because I can push Sauron left, and maybe even I could start my own dual power dark army, and even if the dark lord wins would that actually be so bad?” Sarumon is really the most interesting character and one of the best fictional portrayals of an elite fascist I can think of.
I went in and I’m like “i’m not gonna read all that” and I didn’t but I read this paragraph and lmfao “gandalf out there grillin’” while Sarumon “spends his life in his magic goon cave” thinking about how powerful and smart he is" lol i’m sorry I think that’s funny
Is Count Dooku just Sarumon and Christopher Lee both of them?
Wait, let him cook…
It’s worth remarking that Theil’s company is named for an artifact of evil magic. It’s something like a proto-Internet device, that twists people’s minds through letting them communicate with fascist groomers, and allows them to observe the whole world from a distance instead of living in it as a human being. In a way Theil is just a more advanced version of the Zizians becoming “Sith Lords” Theil has just decided that being the Dark Lord is cool actually and likes everything Sauron and Sarumon stand for, he just plans to do it smarter this time.
Pretty sure the palantir were made by elves and not evil. It just so happens that Sauron currently is in control of them
yeah but they were made by that asshole Feanor
Feanor is like the Elon Musk of elves. Gets himself in stupid schemes that not only fuck him up but damn a whole bunch of people. Oh and they’re also racist, fascist pieces of shit.
literally their world’s version of Cain with the kinslaying
Yup, made by Feanor
so the elves are liberals making and maintaining the tools of evil and then sauron is the worse evil using it more effectively.
They didn’t maintain them at all. The palantir were created like 20 000 years prior to lotr
shhh you’re getting in the way of my analogy to american politics
Ooooohh! You’re correct, but you didn’t preface your answer with, “Um, actually…” so we cannot give you the point.
Would anyone else like to buzz in?
difference is that elves like to touch grass.
Yeah there’s nothing evil about the palantir inherently, just the fact that an evil demigod is currently shoving his malice through them at all times.
The palantir aren’t evil. Theyre neutral
I think they mention that. The internet isn’t inherently evil either, it’s just that way because of how our society is
They were also essential to winning the war. Sauron got just as fucked over by it as the people he tricked with them. Basically it causes a Vulcan mind meld between any people using it and there used to be more and they were kinda like a bunch of pay phones on a party line. Sauron got Denethor to the point he was at by showing selective truths, Denethor had essentially the same Right as Aragon to use the palantir so they could both use it to their advantage which Denethor believed he was doing and gathering intel but he got shown how fucked he was and was having a bad time coping, sauron knew a hobbit had the ring and when pippin looked at the isengard palantir Sauron figured that pippin had the ring (there’s a whole lot at the end of fellowship and start of two towers that clarifies why sauron was so slow to get the news that saruman was both for sure trying to get the ring for himself and also had been defeated. A few days later Aragon rings him up on the palatir and shows off the sword that kicked his ass last time and says he’s coming to do it again. Sauron figures Aragon took the ring from pippin and its gonna be used in a war and goes full war mode and leaves mordor easier to get through. Plus they were made by Feanor who is like…the shadow the hedgehog of Tolkien
Aragorn keeps the Orthanc stone at the end and promises Pippin that he’s using it to keep an eye on him
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I can’t think of Tolkien’s work without thinking of Marx’ words on “Feudal Socialism”:
Owing to their historical position, it became the vocation of the aristocracies of France and England to write pamphlets against modern bourgeois society. In the French Revolution of July 1830, and in the English reform agitation, these aristocracies again succumbed to the hateful upstart. Thenceforth, a serious political struggle was altogether out of the question. A literary battle alone remained possible. But even in the domain of literature the old cries of the restoration period had become impossible.
In order to arouse sympathy, the aristocracy was obliged to lose sight, apparently, of its own interests, and to formulate their indictment against the bourgeoisie in the interest of the exploited working class alone. Thus, the aristocracy took their revenge by singing lampoons on their new masters and whispering in his ears sinister prophesies of coming catastrophe.
In this way arose feudal Socialism: half lamentation, half lampoon; half an echo of the past, half menace of the future; at times, by its bitter, witty and incisive criticism, striking the bourgeoisie to the very heart’s core; but always ludicrous in its effect, through total incapacity to comprehend the march of modern history.
The aristocracy, in order to rally the people to them, waved the proletarian alms-bag in front for a banner. But the people, so often as it joined them, saw on their hindquarters the old feudal coats of arms, and deserted with loud and irreverent laughter.
The Lord of the Rings is so reactionary, it wraps around into being slightly based.
when that was first posted over there I was surprised nobody brought up The Last Ringbearer by Kirill Eskov
such a good book
Good takes on that thread!
I agree that Tolkien isn’t perfect and has some problematic elements, but I think Rightists project too much of themselves into the legendarium and Leftists let them take it. I do think it’s open and people can read almost anything into it, which is how art works, but I also think Tolkien deliberately crafted aspects of the world in such a way that does create space for this type of take.
Always had a soft spot for Harad, personally.
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I think there are so many readings of the Lord of the Rings that it is possible to make it say whatever you want by picking and choosing quotes.
Its a story about an evil race of people invading from the east. Its also about how the people of the world must move past racial prejudice to defeat evil.
You can take whatever message you want from it. When I read it recently I found it funny how many characters were just saying “the West has fallen, billions must die”
They’re not evil Eastern people, though.
There are orientalist elements but the Easterlings and Haradrim are not anymore evil than anyone else. Literally the most powerful, noble, specially God-blessed race of the most Western Men did the same thing and followed Sauron only to build shrines to Morgoth and invade Aman, the land of the Gods. Arguably far more evil shit can be attributed to Numenoreans and their descendants than Easterlings or Haradrim.
As /u/stillhauntingeurope mentioned in that thread, Easterlings and Haradrim initially allied themselves with Sauron because of their experiences of colonization at the hands of the ‘Men of the West’.
People go on about the “men of the West” thing without looking deeper. It is explicit in the text that the Numenoreans corrupted themselves by their practice of colonialism and all the evils that come with it.
And then I’ve seen people decry the portrayal of Easterners as evil or savages or whatever, but again, they’re ignoring the text when they do so. Even without Sam’s thoughts on the dead Haradrim, it’s fairly explicit they serve Sauron not due to some innate evil, but because of their history with the Numenoreans (who would demand tribute, attack, and enslave them) and Sauron manipulating and outright coercing them.
Considering its the same numenoreans who colonized the south and east and what we see in lord of the rings is partially blowback and partially being ruled by dudes who descendants from the Whittier numenoreans and were down with sauron
Exactly.
Just a shame the Men of the West never really faced any punishment for their crimes. I don’t necessarily want Sauron to win, I really don’t, but fuck those Westoids.
All my homies hate Numemore.
I found a really really good nearly 4 damn hour long YouTube video raking Numenor over the coals. The thumbnail had been on my homepage for like a month and it figured it would be a breadtube kinda deal by a movie fan. Nope, it’s got very in depth Tolkien research and puts disparate things together fantastically to really illustrate that the Numenoreans were jerks. Its worth a watch
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I was referring to the orcs as the evil race from the east. And I’m not saying that is objectively the reading of Lord of the Rings, but if you want to say that the story lends itself to a pro-fascist viewpoint, its easy to do that. Its also easy to say that the story is pro-anarchist or monarchist or grill pill or whatever you want.
That’s fair. Orcs aren’t from the east though, TECHNICALLY, but I understand what you mean.
It’s definitely open to different interpretations, fully agree.
I mean…fucking everyone from The East. That’s where the elves woke up
It’s been a while for me but I’m pretty sure you’re thinking of Men. Elves woke up in the West of Beleriand.No one really can definitively say where orcs came from but if we assume they were corrupted elves, which I like, then they are still technically a ‘western’ race.Nah, you’re right! Elves woke up in the distant East as did Men. So I guess orcs could be considered eastern by my headcanon but so would everyone else like you said so I don’t know where that leaves us. Haha
Starting in the east and going west to die (like the sun) is a common trope in these epics, and actually just a common theme throughout culture and religions
The east could just refer to normal ass middle earth which was to the east of beleriand as well
