I lean leftwards because I want more people to get the help, dignity and peace they need and deserve. Now I feel a wave of being told to “harden my heart” and I feel scared and isolated. I don’t have it in me to become a martyr and estrange myself from most people any further, I get nervous with the leftism I see so often expressed as wanting the bad people suffer, and that anything short of revolution is not just not good enough, but worse than doing nothing. And then I have constant guilt that I’m judging people more discriminated than me for how they express things; that my fears aren’t valid and expressions of privilege.
By now I’m feeling emotional burnout, I get annoyed by any respone that isn’t in-depth analysis because it just feels like watching the same responses happening over and over and never going anywhere.
Do you view socialism/communist society as a reward for people like heaven is to Christians? 'cause it’s not. It’s a social necessity. You don’t need to martyr yourself and no one in the actual-marxist movement is asking you to. Advancing the social dialectic is something that happens whether you want it to or not, so you might as well be pushing it in the better direction since there’s no other option.
There Is No Alternative To Marxism.
There Is No Alternative To Marxism
+1
violent revolution is assured not by a desire for violence inherent in the base but by the unyielding logic of capitalism–and the bourgeois-controlled superstructure dominated by that logic–ensuring that violent revolution will come to pass
the word ‘necessity’ proves itself lacking. its social connotations are inextricably tied up with desire (a red herring) while its scientific connotations address the configuration of outcome (the dialectic produces a resultant scenario, synthesis of the imminent and its contradiction, and this synthesis is a necessary completion of the triad)
a more direct word is probably “inevitability,” although that’s still hitting too wide; the inevitability of violence in the consequent period directly following collapse is not the inevitability of revolutionary violence, per se. barbarism is still the base case we must avoid.
so if we need something narrower, that describes only the problem of understanding revolutionary violence apart from the personal, it would be something like, “by destructively suppressing all avenues for peaceful revolution within capitalist societies, the capitalist system preconfigures violence as a guaranteed aspect of any revolution that may occur.”
this isn’t advice for hardening your heart, OP. you have zero personal obligation to engage the perceived social compulsion to pick up the knife and steel yourself, not least because that compulsion is not there.
the goal is not to become the violent revolution. the goal is not to desire it. at the level of the individual, the goal is to understand what is happening and why, to not be 100% blindsided when ‘it happens’. the goal is to stay alive. if staying alive for you means keeping your soft heart and aversion to the lurid expressions of frustration that evoke violence while they forget or gloss over or downright misunderstand the central concept, then that is a good thing and the thing you should do.
Those are good points. I tend to be pretty good at knowing what to expect, but bad at actually preparing for them, doing what is to be done. That’s something I could focus on when I begin getting organised
I highly recommend you to check out the first half of Pedro Ross’s book “How the worker parliaments saved the Cuban revolution”. It’s a very passionate retelling of the community organizing to help each other and confront the odds during a very dark and difficult time (the Periodo Especial, after the illegal and antidemocratic dissolution of the USSR).
I also recommend you to listen to The Stalin Eras series by ProlesPod, they have an episode where they detail recountings about food commissars during war-induced famine literally starving to death while being in charge of the food, because they understood that feeding the peasants who’d bring in next year’s harvest was more important than feeding themselves.
However: It’s also very relevant that there’s (rightfully) a propagandistic effort by communists such as myself not to outright promote violence for violence’s sake, but to showcase that peaceful idealism is definitely abused by the ruling classes and injected into leftism. I hate violence, but I hate even more that we live in an eternal spiral of it, and that the movements that tried to distance themselves from taking arms (see Allende) ended up crushed and on the receiving end of much worse violence.
Socialist history is chuck full of acts of selfless love. Hexbear is a bit irony-poisoned and that works differently on different people, I personally enjoy it, it fosters a very direct and confrontational atmosphere where ruthless criticism is often welcome (I agree we may be too much sometimes)
Marxists would love a non-violent way to achieve lasting positive social change. Unfortunately every time they try it results in fascists taking over, killing them (and hundreds of thousands of Marxist adjacent people) and rolling back any positive changes made. Scary ‘authoritarian’ communism has a rationale which its supporters have came to after hard lessons.
There are obviously ways to organise your community and achieve positive changes there, but the system we exist in is rigged and such action can only go so far.
Ignore people if their only motivation is violence on their class enemy. They are terminally online or children or both.
Are you doing organizing work irl? Your descriptions sound like lots of interactions with terminally online people.
It’s indeed my issue with online spaces specifically. I do want to join an organisation, but I struggle with maintaining daily life as it is. Perfectionism is also making me procrastinate while I bicker about the right org, opsec etc.
Upside is that I now live (mostly) away from my parents in a university city.
Perfectionism is also making me procrastinate while I bicker about the right org, opsec etc.
My suggestion here is that you try to nail down the opsec question and then just join an org that seems okay (and not like some abusive cult or chauvinist shitshow) because you can just leave and the experience will help inform you to find a better one.
One of the things you’re probably running into is that short form text is a low resolution way to communicate and when folks get used to that they become poor communicators. In addition because there is no education program for participation at different levels, there is no ability to efficiently communicate assuming a shared baseline understanding. The closest equivalent to the latter here is like memes about struggle sessions, jokes, etc. But it’s also probably why you prefer longer format posts and explanations. I think some of the ideas, like revolution being necessary, or expressions of frustration and direct opposition to our enemies’ violence without qualms, comes from them having developed a very specific understanding of the world that disagrees with yours, but there isn’t a longer explanation to build a shared base between you. And online culture and attempts to “police” spaces by going hard on people, plus how difficult it is to tell when someone is eternally curious versus criticizing in a way that’s inappropriate, leads to toxic interactions that have no chance at building consciousness, only alienating others.
All of this doesn’t happen every time but it’s pretty common.
irl organizing is good because of the work and development for both the individual and the org, but also because irl communication has to work differently than this and can be grounding. Plus a proper socialist org will have a required education program where questions and disagreements are welcomed so long as they aren’t fully derailing all the time.
@purpleworm@hexbear.net’s suggestion is good but even just a principled reading group can be a good start. In Europe, where correct organizations (communist parties) are usually banned, you’d need to find organizations that differentiate themselves enough to avoid the ban. I’m suggesting this particular direction because it will directly go into some of your questions about revolution and violence, which ultimately are about reading a lot of history.
I think the majority opinion on the site has long been the idealist position that sadism toward reactionaries is cool and good, which is simply backwards, but that needs to be separated conceptually for the inarguable necessity for violence to establish socialism because the masters of society, the owning class, will on the whole not simply surrender their power. If socialism could be established peacefully, that would be better, but either way torture, punitive execution (rather than the wartime necessity of killing actual threats to the revolution) and so on do not advance socialism.
Regardless of how one feels about the people who are openly licking their chops about Doing the Thing, history shows us that the Thing is still going to have to be Done. I think that how people process that knowledge is a matter of their own psychology, and I think a very common survival response to the looming threat of violence is to lean into it. I also think there’s a normalizing social value to having a bunch of people clacking their teeth and banging their forks and knives on the table whenever an oligarch is around.
At the risk of seeming ridiculous, let me say that the true revolutionary is guided by a great feeling of love. It is impossible to think of a genuine revolutionary lacking this quality.
– Che Guevara
I mean, the necessity for violence is a purely structural issue that will have different qualities in different contexts. Its really important to have a concrete basis for revolutionary change, and my ignorance will lead to some speculation and back of the napkin googling. So please have some patience and take this as examples not as concrete basis for action.
Like, in the Netherlands, you live in a social democracy, 16% trade union membership. Based on the level of organization of the workers and relative social safety of your working class, the particular quality of resistance will more likely take the form of strikes,worker organization and demands than “Molotovs”. You were turned into a leftist by your own experiences, you are a reflection of your environment. Revolution isn’t a bloody coup but a transformation of social relations of production.
On the other hand, the Netherlands is the beneficiary of economic partnerships with South Africa which defeated legitimate apartheid but still bears the hallmarks of severe racial exploitation. As long as your social democracy exists as a function of neo colonial exploitation, as social democracies most often do, socialist transformation of your country is impossible. Likely, violent militant and nonviolent political resistance will be necessary in South Africa, and as closely combined as the two economies are, the working class of the Netherlands will have to function as part of the global working class, in solidarity with workers who are most heavily exploited, in order to achieve that transformation.
This is a question of worker consciousness, which is 1:1 with the question of vanguard/worker leadership. When discussing consciousness, we have to think about it as a structural phenomenon rather than a set of personal opinions, as it is often framed.
I catch shit from more politically and militant minded comrades all the time, because my approach is largely pedagogical. I think that self-development, which is itself a form of revolutionary change, can be uncomfortable. It often does not mean finding a group that tells you that all your opinions are valid, it does not mean being part of a collective that you never criticize and who never criticizes you. What gives us optimism and the feeling of accomplishment is engaging directly in the work of class struggle. If you’re engaging mostly with memes and takes, then you’re probably prioritizing the wrong groups. In my own practical work, most of my heavy book and theory study gets consumed by reading dozens of long political position, tactics and strategy papers per month, and long form responding to them, discussing, and disseminating the highlights. I still like memes and takes for entertainment value, but I also know a lot of comrades who kinda hate that shit and discourage it over practical discussion and engagement.
So from my perspective, I think many of your attitudes bear the hallmarks of leftism and practical mindedness. You might have to mix up your routine somewhat and take on some more IRL organizing work to feel a sense of connection to the struggle, and doing so might be just what you need to feel more connected to revolutionary transformation of society.
I get nervous with the leftism I see so often expressed as wanting the bad people suffer, and that anything short of revolution is not just not good enough, but worse than doing nothing.
This is, in my opinion the problem with online leftism. I don’t think people should suffer. Bloodshed will have to happen, but I think wanting someone to suffer rather than rehabilitated or just dead is a brainworm that must be excised. Likewise, while revolution must happen at some point, how it happens is going to be different in every country. Communism is a science, and the material conditions matter. I understand people’s disappointment with the DSA politicians in America, but I think in the imperial core it is a good sign that they are popular. It shows that the people want progress. And when people fail to deliver in promises because they folded to capitalism, leftists can still capitalize on that disappointment. Leftists groups will certainly continue to be crushed by the state, but the more minds are changed, the power can be taken away from it.
The people murdered by imperialism and poverty don’t get to choose whether they like violence or not
anything short of revolution is not just not good enough, but worse than doing nothing.
This bothers me often on this site. The gleeful sneering at anyone attempting to enact any immediate and material positive change in the imperial core and beyond. So fucking happy with their own cleverness for noticing every contradiction or compromise. Anything short of an army large enough to topple the richest countries in the world organizing itself in an empty field like a flash mob, with no cultural change preceding the formation of this grand army because that would be an incrementalism, is a pathetic waste of time and anyone with any hope of a slightly better world for the marginalized within the core is an imbecile to be mocked.
Feel like a lot of ppl here basically sort all progressive/nominally progressive forces (whether its parties, other groups, states or even just individuals) into 2 categories, first is the approved Real Socialists and Anti-Imperialists who need to be supported no matter what and cant ever be critizised too harshly and who can only fail cuz of outside interference (sometimes the outside interference is implied to come from extremely marginal forces that clearly dont have that kind of power to influence things), and then if its not one of those then everything they do needs to be scrutinized to the max, every mistake brought up anytime theyre discussed, everyone who does support them vocally is a naive idiot, etc
(Were not naming any names on purpose, were only saying this is how some ppl act, not which groups or ppl ppl think belong in either category)
the golden rule of being better than everyone: doing nothing > imperfection
Socdemism is structurally an impediment to the benefit of people even in the imperial core. It’s easy to use “making perfect the enemy of the good” language when speaking in generalities, but fundamentally there is no addressing capitalism by contenting ourselves with the election of socdem politicians.
I find it extremely convenient that the only productive action that the majority here recognize is “community building”. But not in any established orgs, because theyre either socdems like the DSA or proletariat-bourgeois like the teamsters or filled with sex pests or otherwise problematic leadership like insert western org with “communist” in their name here. Which at best leaves community volunteer work or forming unions from scratch, and at worst just means informally hanging out with like-minded people. I’m not shitting on volunteering, but I don’t think wearing a hammer and sickle pin to the food bank or turning the local coffee shop into a coop is going to move the needle when it comes to winning the hearts and minds of the western proletariat. So much here is wallowing disguised as realpolitik.
You are assigning things to me that I never said. Go ahead and join the DSA or whatever, go ahead and join one of the trot orgs, probably don’t join a sex cult but like hopefully you don’t call that me being “unpragmatic”. I dislike the central PSL leadership for obvious reasons, but if someone wanted to join a local branch while being aware of that, it is what it is, and FRSO is to my knowledge better in this respect.
I am against socdemism, but even nominally demsoc orgs can be used productively. I agree that there are some real wallowers here, but they are mainly the “there’s nothing I can do because [my country] is too reactionary” types.
hypothetically, a lot of people are needed to provide emotional, medical, food, legal support, at no point in any revolution more than 10-20% of people were engaged in fighting as in movie fighting, with guns and stuff taking positions. in protests some people provide masks or food or first help. nor is there physical resistance in the usa, if you are there, so thats pondering the orb.
and successful violent revolution won’t be military anyways, it will be waves of stochastic incidents
focus on decreasing profit rates, the porkies will provide the rest
I live in the Netherlands, I think a US equivalent would be like Massachusetts but with more Cory Booker types.
I’m aware that I can still contribute in ways that don’t involve throwing molotovs. Rather, I feel a constant impostor syndrome, where IRL I come off as “The Annoying Leftist” (recently, I told my mom that I take issue with her rich friend using Ukrainian drones to justify moving from Russia to Israel permanently), but in places like this one I feel like a “normie” by comparison, because I didn’t call her friend a Nazi that deserved to be hit by a Khorramshahr missile. I feel this with many things in general: being too different for “normie culture”, but then feeling too “normie” for alt culture(s).
Being polite to others in your day-to-day even when you strongly disagree can be… aggravating sometimes… and people need an outlet. I would consider most of the language here to be venting frustrations - which (in any setting) trend toward the colourful and hyperbolic for the catharsis of merely saying it, rather than expressing genuine intent.
Is a joke. Mostlyes.big agree. im like Mr. Cool Breeze & Chill when dealing with reactionary sentiments, clowns, and bozos. i don’t have people justifying/celebrating genocide to my face much at all, so it’s not a big moral/ethical conundrum im facing. it’s more casual ideological framing and i just push back a little as i can with jokes or quips… i.e. landlords are living from [others’] paycheck to paycheck, cops need more overtime to take naps in parking lots and evict poor people in the rain, private equity is a very chubby tick, etc and look for who smiles with a twinkle in their eye.
im more interested in finding pals than verbally pwning and identifying myself to enemies.
funnily enough, i said roughly same about my coworker’s friend to his face, benefits of being unfireable i guess.
nah, don’t mistake rhetoric for actions or actions for outcome, people can be venting or whatever, our aim (as i think more and more) is to strike at material world, because porkies are all idealistic nonces, they don’t think materialism is correct and don’t look there as much as into popular culture and discourse.
Adding to the “is this people online?” crowd.
I lean leftwards because I want more people to get the help, dignity and peace they need and deserve. Now I feel a wave of being told to “harden my heart” and I feel scared and isolated.
Harden your heart against whom? Who is telling you this?
I don’t have it in me to become a martyr and estrange myself from most people any further,
I’m taking “martyr” here in a figurative sense, but no you don’t have to isolate yourself from people to be effective. I would argue it’s counter productive, unless you are working on something that requires secrecy.
I get nervous with the leftism I see so often expressed as wanting the bad people suffer,
I don’t think wanting people to suffer is “leftism”. It can certainly be people on the left expressing anger and hurt.
and that anything short of revolution is not just not good enough, but worse than doing nothing.
I think this is short signted. What is revolution anyways? One violent clash and the world is fixed? No, it’s going to take a lot of different people doing a lot of different things. Isn’t mutual aid a revolutionary act?
And then I have constant guilt that I’m judging people more discriminated than me for how they express things; that my fears aren’t valid and expressions of privilege.
Is this online? It’s not about you. Let people be angry. They have reason to be angry. If you take it personally, maybe ask (yourself) why? Are you harbouring guilt for participating in something harmful? Can you stop doing it? Can you turn this into something positive, maybe amplify the voices of the less privileged without adding in your own voice, so that others can hear and learn?
If it’s not online my response is mostly the same unless it’s someone you have a relationship speaking to you directly. In that case, maybe try and understand why they are telling you these things. Are they asking you to change? Are you a trusted person they are venting to? Etc.
By now I’m feeling emotional burnout, I get annoyed by any respone that isn’t in-depth analysis because it just feels like watching the same responses happening over and over and never going anywhere.
It’s okay to take a break, comrade.
Is this online? It’s not about you. Let people be angry. They have reason to be angry. If you take it personally, maybe ask (yourself) why? Are you harbouring guilt for participating in something harmful? Can you stop doing it? Can you turn this into something positive, maybe amplify the voices of the less privileged without adding in your own voice, so that others can hear and learn?
Banger, should be a standard reply on this site
If I might humbly add: Stop apologizing on behalf of your country or giving others “permission” to resist your country’s imperialism. Its. Not. About. You.
Liberal individualism runs deep
If you take it personally, maybe ask (yourself) why? Are you harbouring guilt for participating in something harmful?
It reads that what they are saying is that they see people talking about genuinely wanting to, inventing a random example, have some chud shot in the gut for being a bigot, and if OP says “that doesn’t seem like the best solution” they are told they are privileged and they feel bad about being positioned as a reactionary for not supporting this line of thinking.
For the record, no one has actually told me this, it’s an expectation in my head based on convos I’ve seen and personal impostor syndrome
I apologize for projecting then, because I have been told that
Hey if you want there to be some pushback against pointlessly violent comments here on Hexbear but don’t feel comfortable doing it yourself, feel free to report the comment. That stuff is against TOS.
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have some chud shot in the gut for being a bigot, and if OP says “that doesn’t seem like the best solution” they are told they are privileged and they feel bad about being positioned as a reactionary for not supporting this line of thinking.
OP has said this isn’t what they were talking to but I want to offer some advice on this situation anyways for any other youths.
You don’t need to reply to everything. Sure, if you think what people are suggesting is wrong and bad then it’s fine and good to speak up. But if you are already stressing about how you are perceived, you aren’t in the right space to offer your dissenting opinion online. Let someone else take that on.
I’d weigh speaking up in your actual community (could be online too, but usually a smaller or more closed circle) higher than replying to randos online. You don’t know who is just trying to initiate conflict for kicks.
I wouldn’t call myself a “youth” but I guess otherwise it applies to me as well. I would love more than most people would ever believe to be able to just comfortably never argue again about 99.9% of the things that I argue about, but my personal issue is that there are many points where I know from experience that if I say nothing, most likely no one will, and other times where there is at least a pretty realistic chance no one will.
Edit: I guess the logical answer is probably “go somewhere else”
What do you think you will achieve? Do you think the people you are arguing with will change their minds?
Almost never. I tell myself that perhaps someone else reading it might be persuaded.
It is indeed an online thing. I indeed harbour guilt, because I know that there are things I can do but I don’t, out of fear, because of preoccupation with “more important” stuff like school and staying healthy, or an “all or nothing” mentality that isn’t sustainable.
I’m white, male and cis in one of the most Global Northern countries on the planet. I’m relatively well-off too and most politics don’t affect me directly. I constantly worry thar when someone complains about a certain opinion/person whether it includes me, because I can very easily slip back into things like complacency or reformism if I don’t stay vigilant.
Thanks for the thoughtfulness.
Please take this with kindness. I’ve been off work for 4 months due to burn out and I wish this is how someone explained it to me 20 years ago:
There is no need out there in the world that is so unique that only you can meet it except for taking care of yourself. No one else can know your needs as well as you do and fulfill them for you. If you are not taken care of, you will not be able to do anything for others. Wise people don’t ignore maintence and expect a machine to just run infinitely, right?
There is no shame in struggling and asking for help, just as there is no shame in struggling and taking a break. Focus on your schooling and self care. This will equip you to better care for your comrades when you have more capacity.
I constantly worry thar when someone complains about a certain opinion/person whether it includes me,
I say this to myself all the time “What other people think of my is none of my business”, but also in this case they aren’t thinking of you as an individual so there is even less to worry about!
because I can very easily slip back into things like complacency or reformism if I don’t stay vigilant.
As a practical tip I’d suggest adopting “I don’t know enough to form an opinion” as a mantra. That way you don’t need to worry about them lumping you in with a group that is complacent or supports reform because you simply don’t have an opinion on the topic!
Obviously this doesn’t work if it’s something you need to make a decisions on, but global politics? Do you influence it? No? Stop worrying about it right now.
The two lessons at the end are good ones and I’ve been trying to follow them for quite some time. Unfortunately my insecurities are very persistent, so it will take a long time before I’ve fully taken them to heart. I generally tend to judge myself more harshly than others, then being told that I’m doing better than I thought.
I’m white, male and cis in one of the most Global Northern countries on the planet. I’m relatively well-off too and most politics don’t affect me directly.
Sounds like capitalist society served you every bribe it could and you still reject it. Take their bribes and use them to ruin the capitalist class’s strenuous efforts to miseducate, indoctrinate and control the information space. Use them to support the struggle where people have a need you can meet.
violence
ok, I see the argument
cruelty
who the fuck is arguing that cruelty is necessary?
I’m never going to be able to participate actively in a violent revolution. I could protect my family and loved ones with violence if necessary but I’m just not that person. Fortunately, there are people who can.
If you want to be able to help your comrades if and when the time should come, there is plenty need for non-combatants. If you live in a rural area, lean to farm. If you live in a city, learn first-aid!
Learn first aid, whether rural, urban, suburban.
Yes, revolution is certainly necessary, but if you live in the imperial core you can at your option take comfort for now that it probably will not come to where you are for quite some time. In that time countless acts of structural and actual violence are visited upon the working class all over the world by the bourgeoisie. I hope at the very least that when a revolution does occur or has occurred in your own country or elsewhere you will investigate before you speak and not rush to condemn it simply because it happens to be violent, as all successful revolutions will be to some extent. It is also almost certain that the scale of violence required for such a revolution is less by orders of magnitude than the scale of violence required to maintain and extend the capitalist world system.
Mark Twain’s “two reigns of terror” quote goes here.
