• Zacryon@feddit.org
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    16 hours ago

    TL;DR:
    Automation erodes the base of the labor market faster than new roles emerge, while our current economic system depends on human labor as the primary source of income distribution.

    Solution ideas:
    In the short term, mitigate the effects of automation-driven job loss through mechanisms like automation taxes and universal basic income.
    In the long term, move toward a system where access to basic needs is decoupled from labor entirely, as human work loses its role as the primary source of value distribution.

    Long version:
    I am a robotics reaearcher working in the field of cognitive systems, the lemmy-wide beloved AI. From my point of view we are at a crossroads: one path leads to a robotic utopia, the other to a dystopia.

    The near-future reasons are mainly of socio-economic nature: AI powered robots will replace more and more jobs that are low on the required job-skill hierachy and iteratively improve over time with regard to costs as well as capabilities. And the speed of this developments is increasing. While some may embrace it since this frees capacities such that people can seek positions that require higher qualification, I think that this will not be the case, because I suspect we have something that I would call a “job pyramid”. At the broad lower end we have many jobs available that require only low skills. As we look further towards the top, the availability of jobs becomes more scarce as the qualification level rises.
    “It is lonely at the top”: not everyone can become a CEO, a professor, or take some other high ranking position, because there are not enough openings available.
    At the same time, robots and AI devour the lower end of the pyramid more and more, kicking people out of the level where they would’ve gotten a job and throwing them into an existential crisis.

    I need to emphasize that my “job pyramid” perspective is just a hypothesis and I did not have the time yet to conduct thorough research on this to see whether this is actually justified. It also does not consider other market dynamics such as the evolution of new or small market segments that could result from the economic pressure. (I suppose though that the options are too limited in that regard as well.)

    An additional failure mode (ignoring access to education) is that people are not just motivated enough by money in order to take on the education necessary to get those high qualification positons. Otherwise most of us would probably try to become tech CEOs for example and we just don’t see that happening. This is apparent already at an academic level: most people do not pursue higher education at universities or alike. That’s a systematic incompatibility with how humans actually tic. They are not just simple economically optimizing agents, since human motivation and actions are much more multi-faceted. Therefore, “just reskill upwards” is not a universal solution.

    We have long crossed the threshold where robots became cheap to build, deploy and maintain and much more efficient, safer as well as cheaper than human labour. And that’s what the capitalists see: they do not really see a marvellous new technology that improves the lifes of everyone and leads us into a world where nobody would have to work. They see cheap work force.
    From a business point of view this is fair game, even if ethically questionable.

    So how do we get out of this? If robots and AI steal more and more of the jobs that humans would’ve done, job openings becoming scarce, and financial pressure starts affecting more and more people in an increasingly worse manner, what can we do?
    From my point of view: we need to move towards a post-scarcity society in this regard.

    Currently, labour only has value because it can not be replaced easily. But the devaluation of work will continue. Also, even though it currently looks like a meaningful path for more and more companies to pursue increasing the amount of automation in the short term, this will sooner or later rebounce: if people don’t get enough money, they can not pay for goods and services, which will lead to those companies loosing profits, which will lead to less people being able to afford a basic living and so on.

    To fix this temporarily, we could, for example, impose an automation tax on companies: determine the amount to which a company could be automated and then impose a tax proportional to the amount they were actually automated. If we allow purposing specific taxes, we could use this automation tax to finance a universal basic income. Starting with those people who are not able to make a living due to an increasingly automated society. This tax should strike a balance to still allow making it attractive for companies to go for automation and stay competitive.

    However, this is only a temporary solution, because in the long term, this leads to the same issues I already described before.

    I am convinced that the core issue is an inherent incompatibility of advancements in robotics and AI with a capitalistic society. And for as long as this is the case, there is a creeping doom approaching, leading to a long period of a dystopia where the few keep getting richer while the many will struggle for life. We already have this issue without automation in our society today.

    Wealth re-distribution might help, money is only meaningful if it is being kept in circulation. But I suppose this is also just a bandaid fix.

    We need to move to a state of things, where living a basic life is granted and virtually free of charge. To get there the above solution ideas can help. But ultimately, we will probably need communist robots to open the path towards the utopic future. Someday nobody has to work, but is free to pursue their happiness and unfold their potential, even if it is working on something in the end anyway. But no one would have to fear not getting basic needs met. Everyone could get shelter, enough food and so on. (We are wasting insane amounts of food anyway already today. Isn’t that cruel?) That is the future I am dreaming of.

    But one thing is certain: robotics and AI will continue to develop and the momentum increases. It has come to stay, one way or the other. It is not some basic technology that makes only few jobs obsolete, it will keep distorting the labour market more and more in the future. So we will have to deal with it.

    I have been saying this for what feels like half an eternity and advocating for legislation worldwide to develop new laws and structures in order to deal with this, because we are missing crucial time and are already starting to see how wrong this can go, if we do not act accordingly.

    Thanks for coming to my TED talk.

  • matlag@sh.itjust.works
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    19 hours ago

    “Robots will replace all jobs and work for us!” – Who realistically thought they would be in the “us” here?

    Robots belong to companies owned by shareholders, but mostly oligarchs. In their view, when robots work for “them”, human population has been culled with 99.9% of the population died by starvation and/or stopped reproducing, and the 0.1% billionaire families survivors enjoy a cosy life where robots do everything.

    Until the system crashes and none of these idiots know how to fix anything.

    That’s one more human extinction scenario to the list…

    • JensSpahnpasta@feddit.org
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      12 hours ago

      It’s legal for your boss to replace you with a robot and fire you. But it’s not legal for you to just buy a robot that is doing your job for you while you are still getting paid.

  • hayvan@piefed.world
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    1 day ago

    Robots solve inequality in a social, humane society. Not in Capitalism. Capitalism is based on inequality, it cannot survive without oppression.

    • Korhaka@sopuli.xyz
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      22 hours ago

      Robots are just the new slave labour. The old slave labour is now redundant so doesn’t need to be fed.

      • Soup@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        Slavery is oppression so they’re still right, and oppression includes more things than just slavery which is more true. Capitalism is designed to give power to money, not equal power to people. It doesn’t even serve as a way to give a louder voice to those who work hard because it’s about having money and not about how said money was made.

        So, yes, but you’ve made the comment less accurate.

    • qarbone@lemmy.world
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      15 hours ago

      The same reason people still learn Latin or maintain legacy system in outdated programming languages.

  • UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml
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    18 hours ago

    Robots will solve inequality because once the military is fully automated, the 1% will murder everyone they dont want to have sex with.

    Hope youre hotter then a 8.

  • Mulligrubs@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    CEOs and owners hate payroll, it’s their biggest “expense” and many would eliminate all employees the second they are able to.

    The board would be very happy to have that expense removed; a perfect capitalist company needs no employees, just robots.

    At least we’ll get to see the CEOs bitch, they’re quite an expense on their own and will also be replaced.

    • reksas@sopuli.xyz
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      21 hours ago

      where will they get the profits without customers though? If all companies got what they wanted and replaced employees with robots, people wouldnt have jobs and couldnt afford to buy anything. Do the rich have endgame for that scenario? Can’t see them caring to use humans as slaves either, why bother when they got robots already.

      • Mulligrubs@lemmy.world
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        6 hours ago

        That’s a problem for another quarter, their priorities are profits NOW.

        They don’t need an end game; let’s say everything you described as come to pass; they and their families will be on their islands and in underground bunkers with their piles of riches to recline upon (like a dragon), and we will be up top eating each other.

        That’s their worst case scenario and they are fine with it, their robots will serve them for all eternity.

      • thetentacle@lemmy.world
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        20 hours ago

        you don’t need profits anymore when you have robotic slaves. you need profits to pay people to do the work you want to be done for you. if you have robots doing everything to keep a large estate running for you with all necessities and complete automation, what do you need more humans or profit for? If you need a door replaced you send a robot to make a new one, you don’t need a complete carpentry industry.

  • moonshadow@slrpnk.net
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    1 day ago

    In my town the children fuck with these to learn to fuck with waymos when they grow up. Trapping them with signs is funny and you can’t get in trouble, bashing/stripping them is cooler but they’re expensive enough that pretty much any damage is a “felony” so watch out for that

    • BarneyPiccolo@lemmy.today
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      1 day ago

      There have to be trackers on it, so if you take it home to dissect it, they’ll be crashing through your door pretty soon. That robot is owned by a big corporation, and has more rights than you.

      • Jankatarch@lemmy.world
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        1 day ago

        Kids are inherently anarchist in nature. Donate a faraday net to your local children today. Keep them safe.

      • moonshadow@slrpnk.net
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        1 day ago

        The pros used to use foil lined vans for stripping scooters, imagine they’re still at it. The kids smash n dash with the batteries like pheasant hunters just pulling the breasts and put them in their ebikes to get away even faster next time

  • vaultdweller013@sh.itjust.works
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    1 day ago

    So has anyone broken into one of these things for food yet or no? Because I could definitely see a particularly hungry crackhead with a pry bar cracking one open like a kinder surprise egg.

  • Alberat@lemmy.world
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    1 day ago

    You’ve just spent the night sleeping face-down in a plate of synth-spaghetti in a bar called the Chatsubo. After rubbing the sauce out of your eyes, you can see Chiba sky through the window, the color of television tuned to a dead channel. Ratz’s prosthetic Russian arm whines as he wipes the bar. “I don’t care if you eat that spaghetti or sleep in it, you still gotta pay for it. 46 credits. Pay up, cyberscum.” “Sorry Ratz. I can’t afford it. Want me to give it back?” “You’re under arrest, citizen, for not paying your tab.” "You find yourself in a Justice booth. On the wall monitor in front of you if the huge image of a frowning Compu-Judge. On the smaller monitor is there serious face of a Compu-Lawyer “You have been charged with a serious crime, citizen. I will be your Judge. Due to the serious nature of your crime, there can only be one verdict… Guilty. You must remain in Chiba City. A fine of 500 credits will be deducted from your bank account.”

  • SabinStargem@lemmy.today
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    23 hours ago

    I think robots can help, but it requires laws, overhauled society, and a twist on things. Instead of companies owning many individual robots, such as shelf stockers, cleanup bots, and food handlers, individual people own a single robot. This robot is loaned out to companies, but service can be retracted by the human owner.

    That sort of requirement would make it so that companies can’t become automated fiefdoms of an individual will, as they have to get robotic labor from ordinary people.

    • RosaLuxemburgsGhost@lemmy.ml
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      17 hours ago

      It requires a planned socialized economy so that the robots are programmed to help the masses, not programmed to help protect the private property and endless enrichment of the capitalist class.

      • SabinStargem@lemmy.today
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        17 hours ago

        Allowing ordinary people to modify their robots to have software that is loyal to the person, would be key. A Linux for automatons, essentially.

    • Captain Aggravated@sh.itjust.works
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      19 hours ago

      It requires truly abandoning the idea that one must work for one’s pay. That basic assumption has to completely die before you can enter that world of technological post-scarcity. I don’t think that reckoning is going to arrive peacefully.

      • SabinStargem@lemmy.today
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        16 hours ago

        IMO, the United States is speedrunning the conditions needed to upset the apple cart. As such, much of my focus when making suggestions is the assumption that society would have a serious redefinition of how the economy is supposed to work.

        To that end, I think UBI socialism could pair with capitalism, but in specific ways. UBI providing free necessities, while capitalism offers luxuries. For example, UBI allowing anyone to own a single generic car in one color, with a set feature list. Luxury cars have to compete against the free basic government car, by offering creature comforts, aesthetics, size, and so forth.

        Capitalism is great at offering interesting stuff for a person. But it is fundamentally unfit at ensuring the wellbeing of people. Money should be used solely used for buying lifestyle, while everything fundamental to a decent life is freely given. Free fuel, free food, free basic lodgings, free utilities, free healthcare, free basic supplies, free childcare, free generic clothing, ect.

        It is the bandages decorated with children’s cartoons, fashionable clothing, fancy christmas lights, and so forth that people have to spend money on.

  • TheLeadenSea@sh.itjust.works
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    1 day ago

    Robots that automate food and medical care production and that are open source will make capitalism obsolete. Not robots in general.