- cross-posted to:
- conservative@sh.itjust.works
- cross-posted to:
- conservative@sh.itjust.works
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What? Pretty sure Afghanistan was lost too?? Or are we using strategic ambiguity in new ways?
The way I interpret this is single-handedly lost the war. Afghanistan was over 4 presidents (Bush, Obama, Trump, and Biden). The sloppy withdrawal by Biden was die to no planning and a treaty signed by Trump to do so by 2/29/2020.
Trump is the one who unconditionally surrendered Afghanistan. It’s on him.
But still, not winning against Stone Age goat herders for 4 presidents… I don’t know man, what was the plan? Bomb the desert again?
If that’s the case, then Nixon didn’t single handily lose the Vietnam War either.
But let’s be real. The Democrat president who inherits this war in 2028 will be the one blamed for loosing it.
The sloppy withdrawal by Biden was a treaty signed by Trump to do so by 2/29/2020.
The war was won, the person you handed the reigns to just ran away so fast when the enemy came it appeared like it was you being run out of the country.
You yanks REALLY need to lose this one. Your noses need to be rubbed in it. You need to feel the SHIT you put the rest of us though. And you need to get seriously angry at the Israelis and rub THEIR noses in it. You need a big enough shock to CHANGE.
(Like I know most of the people on Lemmy are not Republican idiots. I’m obviously not talking about you personally, but about the «general public opinion» in the US, especially the Republican idiots.)
In America, we punish the incumbents. BoTh PaRtIeS have told their own constituents to fuck off; membership of registered voters is at 30% each. Independents are now 40% of voters.
Whoever wins the election tells the people who elected them to fuck off; so, we vote them out. That’s it. The new election winner then tells the people who elected them to fuck off, and so on.
Examples: Biden runs with minimum wage increase as platform, wins, then tells everybody to fuck off.
Trump then runs with “no war” as platform; wins, goes to war and tells his voters to fuck off.
He will be replaced by a Democrat, who will then also tell their voters to fuck off.
Repeat ad nauseam. Neither party does what they are elected to do and are then punished, to be replaced by the other party that will refuse to do what they were elected to do.
We can’t vote ourselves out of this, unfortunately.
He will be replaced by a Democrat, who will then also tell their voters to fuck off.
The real political innovation here is that the Democratic party is telling its voters to fuck off before the next election.
They don’t have anything to loose. Another Republican president? Great! They can sit on their asses for four more years writing angry tweets about how offended they are while telling voters to fuck off. Democrats win? Even better! Sit on their asses while insider trading and taking billionaire tributes while telling voters to fuck off. What a great system we have.
I agree with the incumbent part, but exactly how was Biden able to pass minimum wage law but decided not to? It can’t go in reconciliation and they didn’t have the votes for it in the Senate.
I’m sadly forced to work alongside some republican asshats, and let me tell you, they’re fucking ecstatic about how the usa military is kicking Iran’s ass. Reality has no bearing on them.
They don’t care. It’s a video game to most Americans. That’s what having oceans between you and the bombs does.
The US committed a war crime on day one, and Israel has been on a war crime spree since Oct 7… if this turns into a world war, it’ll be that Mitchell and Webb skit… “are we the baddies?”
You’re being too lenient. It’s not just Republicans, they’re only 1/3 of the population, the even bigger issue is the “moderate” and “apolitical” people that make up another 1/3…these people will loudly oppose anything and everything but blatant extreme right wing authoritarianism, in fact they’ll get more upset about the final 1/3 of the population that’s against authoritarianism than they will ever get at literal dictators.
And you represent the real problem, in my opinion.
bOtH pArTiEs need to stop treating independents like shit. It doesn’t help you. You REQUIRE independents to win, perhaps you should stop treating them with contempt? Maybe do what they want… like stop supporting Israel?
You might THINK not supporting Israel is “blatant extreme right wing authoritarianism”, but independents don’t agree with you. Have a little respect… a tiny bit.
Just an idea.
I’m not a Democrat and I sure as hell don’t support Israel…what are you even talking about? The 1/3 thing is a consistent split throughout history across the globe, I’m not just talking about Israel or our right wing terrorist party and our super ultra right wing terrorist party.
I think you’re way overestimating the consistency of independents in the US when it comes to Israel. See recent Gallup figures from February. It’s only in the last year that net sentiment seems to cut against support for Israel.
This seems to come up a bit. Disaffected voters recognize that neither dominant party represents them, see that others feel the same way, and then seemingly assume that the other disaffecteds share their opinion on x or y. If only the party would align with me on this topic, they’d bring over all the independents! It’s not that simple of an equation for many issues.
This isn’t to say Democrats to a good job at triangulating public will or building a coalition. They do not.
well said, Dilldough
…I’m not sure Europe would be better off if Iran was controlled by Russia, and I’m not sure if an independent Iran is a realistic option. At the end of the day, it seems like Europe needs the oil more than America does.
I sort of agree though. I haven’t heard a compelling argument as to why we are interfering in Europe’s problems. They have the strength of character to take on countries like Iran and Russia.
Europe didn’t fight Israel’s war against Iran for it. Europe was quite happy leaving Iran alone, having the odd awkward diplomatic discussion. Europe was happy buying oil and related good from the gulf states as needed.
The US need to lose because they shat the bed.
Even more, Europe and the US had a goddamn deal with Iran that now sounds like an unrealistically optimistic scenario.
No one’s done that since Nixon? Would you call Afghanistan a victory? Although that was also Trump.
It’s not that he lost… it’s not that he started it because putin told him to… it’s not even that his moron running the “war department” is an alcohol addled butt sucking asshole…
It’s because of all the goddam taxpayer money he threw DOWN THE FUCKING COMMODE on the death merchants. What? Did Raytheon need to clear out some old inventory?
Putin didn’t get him to start, it was Bibi.
In Afghanistan, Trump unconditionally surrendered to the Taliban, but left Biden to complete the withdrawal. Before that, Iraq was either a loss or a stalemate, depending on what the poorly articulated objectives actually were.
The last time the US won was WW2.
The US “won” in WW2 because they managed to pick the winning team. There was a significant pro-nazi faction in the country at the time and it wasn’t really until Japan attacked Pear Harbour that they really picked a side and went all-in on it. Before that, they were fine with selling stuff to Nazi Germany, and Japan for that matter.
I never claimed otherwise.
The allies won WW2. The US alone would have lost.
If we make that distinction then we’re looking at Spanish American war as their last win.
Well… I guess they won the American Civil War.
Half of them lost it though, shall we call it a draw?
The wars were won in both cases. Decisively.
Hearts and minds were not won, in either case. There is a good question whether the nationbuilding could even theoretically have succeeded, given how tribal and divided the countries were. IMO it was stupid to try in the first place, especially in Afghanistan.
We keep entering conflicts with no clear objective because our leadership lies about our reasons for entering the conflict. In both cases we had no hard evidence they were even continuing development of nuclear weapons.
We defeated their military and occupied their countries, but winning implies completing an objective successfully. When we exited Afghanistan the Taliban instantly took control. They completed their objective, they won the war.
Hows our “Project for a new American century” coming along? Seems it wasnt as easy as just writing down all the things we lusted after and grabbing them via pure hubris.
7 wars and a movie… just missing the movie.
I’m sure they’ll make a movie about how the war made them sad
Maybe they needed the ratings for the final war/season to be higher for the movie.
yes, inevitably casting “principled” god-fearing maga people as the real victims in all of this, who are always calm and dignified, and never ever wanted any violence, but the outcome was forced on them… by muslim and woke democrat terrorists who were the real epstein pedophiles all along. We can have an AI write this movie in about 5 minutes. I bet Noah Wiley would agree to play Hegseth.
I think this article forgets how Trump effectively surrendered Afghanistan to the Taliban the last time around.
Also, calling Iraq a win is really stretching things.
Unless you consider how beneficial these wars were for the Israel first politicians and lobbies
Also Afghanistan. Also Vietnam.
The headline said “since Nixon.” The US lost the Vietnam war while Tricky Dick was president.
Mission Accomplished, babyyyyyyyy!!!
Winning a battle is easy, winning an occupation is close to impossible.
Most people seem to have decided that one is on Biden for some reason, including Biden.
eh. might be 55% Biden 45% Trump, 50/50? 60/40? but really it hardly matters. These last two presidents had the legitimate authority and tools to see the right thing done regardless of zionist funding pressure and they both decided to actively do war crimes and take the bribes instead of doing whats right. Neither is worthy of any leadership position, and they should both be in prison in orange jumpsuits for crimes against humanity. This is what weak and unprincipled leaders get us. These two incompetent arrogant idiots may be the end of all of us.
Which is really weird considering wasn’t he literally following the timeline Trump set out? A timeline that was almost certainly concocted to screw over the Democrat if Trump lost and that Trump wouldn’t have actually stuck to if he won?
Trump wouldn’t have actually stuck to if he won?
Funny how you say that…
It is on Biden, he didn’t have to stick to Trump’s controversial deal with the Taliban, he could have had a spine and given a statement about how he supports bringing the troops home but that leaving Afghanistan in the hands of the Taliban will only put them at more risk in the future and how Trump made a fool of us by dealing with them. But no, every liberal has to treat Biden like he has no agency, like he didn’t continue negotiating with the Taliban and eventually gave the final withdrawl orders leaving locals who helped the US to fend for themselves.
This thread is full of the most absolutely bizarre takes imaginable.
The war in Afghanistan was a complete failure from start to finish and was only ever about making more money for arms manufacturers and oil companies. At literally any point in the decades long occupation, the best thing to do would be to immediately withdraw. The decision to withdraw was one of the best policy decisions any president has made in my lifetime (an admittedly low bar). I was hoping and praying for that decision for literally 20 years of my life. Personally, I’d tend to credit Biden with it since he was the one who actually followed through and accepted the political fallout from all the psychopathic hawks in the media.
And I come in here and the two sides are, “Biden good because [incredibly good and necessary decision] was actually Trump’s fault!” vs “Biden bad because [incredibly good and necessary decision] was Biden’s fault!”
How on earth has everyone in here come to this conclusion that if we prolonged the war even another 20 years, we could accomplish something we completely and utterly failed to do in that time? Even our own puppet government was telling us to leave. If you want to blame someone for losing the war, blame Bush, because the war was already lost within the first year at most. I literally cannot comprehend how anyone could look at that situation and want us to stay unless they were directly profiting from it.
Rationally, I know that liberals are bloodthirsty warmongerers who worship Khorne and want to build mountains of skulls and all, but like aren’t you supposed to keep up some kind of pretence of not just wanting to turn a country into a perpetual slaughterhouse?
liberals are bloodthirsty warmongerers who worship Khorne
Excuse me? It’s spelled “Koɿ n”.
It was a no-win situation. If he stayed, the Republicans who pretended to care about war being a bad thing would have raked him over the coals about throwing out future FIFA peace prize recipient Donald Trump’s flawless exit strategy.
And we see that when he went through with it anyway what a fucking mess it was, and they blamed him for it imploding anyway.
I’m of the firm opinion that we could have occupied Afghanistan for a century and the result upon exiting would have resulted in the exact same outcome. There were perhaps better ways to do a drawdown that wouldn’t result in leaving billions of dollars worth of military hardware, vehicles and munitions behind for the Taliban to sieze and use for themselves, but it still eventually had to happen and we got what we got.
Democracy can’t be given to someone else. It must be hard fought for and won by the people themselves, or it’s value will never become apparent to them.
I agree, and think you summarized it well. There was no win, and somehow Biden chose the worst way possible, leave the Taliban with billions of military equipment and abandoning everyone who helped the US, despite NOT sticking to Trump’s original timeline so be couldn’t even use that excuse.
He was under massive pressure to pull out because everyone was tired of this costly losing occupation, and he fucked up the pullout. That’s on him.
But no, every liberal has to treat Biden like he has no agency, like he didn’t continue negotiating with the Taliban and eventually gave the final withdrawl orders leaving locals who helped the US to fend for themselves.
So I didn’t go into everything in my comment because I was specifically only commenting on that one aspect. But I’m actually mad at Biden because I know he had agency in the process and didn’t have to hang all those interpreters out to dry, or leave a ton of fully functional hardware for the Taliban to use. I’m not trying to excuse Biden for his actions, I’m saying it’s weird that he chose to step on the landmine that Trump left for him rather than do anything to make leaving not a disaster and then just chose to eat the criticism after.
Like I’m glad that he did actually leave rather than staying and occupying Afghanistan forever. But I agree with what was said in that other comment that basically it was a no-win situation and Biden chose the worst possible way he could have left.
he didn’t have to stick to Trump’s controversial deal with the Taliban
Trump had already given away anything that would given Biden bargaining power. It was a deliberate setup.
Trump set it up to look that way.
Don’t mention any decency from Biden. It’ll ruin the narrative.
Don’t mention any decency from Biden. It’ll ruin the narrative.
You could just as easily say, “Don’t mention any decency from Hitler. It’ll ruin the narrative.”
Theres a reason people aren’t aware of a lot of the actually good things Hitler did. If you can figure out why those things arent mentioned these days, you will understand why people dont dwell on the good things Biden did.
Here is the stuff I’m talking about:
- Championed animal welfare causes.
- An anti-smoking crusader.
- An early champion of many environmental causes.
- A notable champion of the wisdom of infrastructure spending and infrastructure bills in general, just like Biden.
- An avid fan of the arts.
I will spot you a hint though: Biden/Hitler/ Trump all share a common problem, its one word, starts w a “G” and ends in “cide”.
um what? america has only won 2 wars against a guerrilla force of their own terf in the last 100 years.
Every $10 increase in crude translates to roughly 24 cents per gallon at the pump. So we’re looking at 25 to 45 cents per gallon — baked in, structural, not going away when the war ends, not going away when the headlines fade, not going away ever.
Can we stop with this narrative that this is somehow a bad thing?
The price of oil has been too low. calculate the cost if externalities, and the price should be close to infinity.
Just stop oil.
Food prices are still tied to fossil fuel prices. This will cause a lot of very real pain, among the poorest in the world.
So yes, we need to get to net zero carbon. But there has to be a more humane way than unplanned cold turkey.
It’s only cold turkey now because we haven’t done it in the last 50 years.
That time has passed. It was supposed to be a slow transition since 1970s.
Now the only option is to just stop now.
And most of the world’s food is produced locally. For those few heavily industrialized countries that chose to centralize their food systems to be dependent on fossil fuels, they have enough wealth to give free food to their poor populations.
And most of the world’s food is produced locally.
…With imported nitrogen fertilizer made from fossil fuel. And with farm machines burning imported oil. And transported even to local market using imported fuel.
Nope. False misinformation (though common misconception).
Most of the world’s food systems never adopted the broken “green revolution”. They’re local and mostly organic.
Did AI write this article? It repeats itself a lot.
Daily Kos still exists?
Yeah, they’re still sending out a newsletter and doing decent articles on their webpage but they’re low on fundraising.
Nixon had the decency to resign, Trump will drive us all 6ft under without any hesitation.
Nixon was not decent. The difference was that a Senator (Goldwater) told Nixon point blank that he was getting impeached and the senate had the votes to convict and remove.
Like most government officials “retirement” is getting fired.
I’m pretty sure Trump would give the order to launch the nukes and kill us all in that situation.
That’s why he’s firing the top military people. They won’t follow illegal (and reprehensible) orders, so he knows they won’t bomb blue states.
absurd claim even as a die-hard cynic.
He won’t nuke his top money makers, California and NY pay for half of the US military already
Trump 100% does not think that way.
Man bankrupted casinos, he has failed upwards most of his life and I don’t doubt he’d try some shit on CA and NY if he thought he could get away with it. It’s not their economies stopping him, its knowledge he might have to face consrquences if he did something too excessive, and as his brain liquifies I find myself wondering how long before he thinks the odds are okay.
It doesn’t matter how Trump thinks, the US military isn’t going to nuke their own families, don’t be ridiculous
I have to hope the people with access would refuse to obey these illegal orders.
By that point, if Americans STILL think they can vote and avoid violence then the American public really us beyond hope.
They also didn’t have Faux “News”, hate radio, or the Internet back then, either.
What’s so fucked up is that POS of a FCC chairman just celebrated making it even worse than it already was for truth.
Fox was started precisely because the moneybags never wanted a Republican president held to account again.
I genuinely think he’s by far the most likely president in this country’s history to launch ICBMs if he knows he is fucked. Which was a conclusion myself and any non-moron also came to in 2015.
He is really old now. A good cold, covid, a peanut or even a strong fart could do him in.
He’s never been anything but a silver spoon total loser. He’s not even a skilled criminal. Fucking bush league in every measure.
He expected to lose the first election. He wanted to be able to use it as proof that the system was against him, to fire up the Fox News rubes and jumpstart his new TV network. He basically wanted to lose, and instead he won.
It’s amazing. He’s such a failure he failed at failing.
Donald Trump has spent his entire life falling up stairs.
This is a very dark replay of the plot of The Producers.
The BIGGEST Loser!!!
nobody loses as good as me, I’m not saying but everyone else is saying it. the best loser, the BIGGLIEST loser. Arnold Palmer, now he was a great loser, you know they say he had a really big penis, I never saw it myself it’s what people tell me, tremendous dong and tremendous loser.
thank you for your attention to this matter.
That’s an insult to Bushes and shrubbery.
Nah, even the bushes were better at this than him
No one wins when people start shooting at each other. There are only different degrees of losing. There is no glory in war, only suffering of the poor for the rich.
Gotta argue. The winner here is the 3d side that sells these people guns.
While somehow Biden get’s blamed for the fiasco, Trump did order the full withdrawal of US troops from Afghanistan, essentially a surrender to the Taliban, though he did keep their US bank account held treasury.
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