after St. Louis police unions instructed officers to publicly display The Punisher’s insignia (the mark of a lawless, fascist murderer) the comic book community was quick to point out the stupidity, and the frankly horrifying message sent by supposed peace officers endorsing a maniac. So it’s a good thing The Punisher personally confirms he hates cops who see him as a friend… making every cop who “wears his mark” or calls themselves a “fan” look like shameful fool in the process.
– Andrew Dyce, The Punisher Confirms: He HATES Cops Who Support Him
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If fascists could read they’d be very upset
They like him because they want to LARP as a reckless, vengeance seeking gunslinger who eliminates anyone who they feel has wronged them or who is “wrong”. As in so many other circumstances, they’ve missed the point and the intended message.
The ol’ Walter White/Rick Sanchez/Joker/Patrick Batemen “hes literally me fr fr” but for adult men doing an actual job. It’d be cringey if they weren’t in a position of authority.
Still pretty cringey tbh. The fact that there’s so many people (mostly white men) who run around fantasizing about gunning down people they disagree with is sad, and terrifying. It’s a whole subculture of violence obsessed gun nuts with a victim complex and low self esteem.
It is important to remember that even the actual brownshirts were a bunch of fucking dorks.
There was a whole bunch of lenmings salivating when someone shot a youtube prankster for getting in his face, pathetic as fuck
Rick & Morty this season really turned a corner with how they interpret Rick and how truly lonely/shitty his life can be because of his very serious personality flaws. Big fan of what they’re doing. Lots of self reflection on the show, more nuanced debates about rick and morty’s (toxic) relationship somehow despite how often it’s brought up, strong mirrors back on the audience. It’s strong stuff
Might have to give em another shot but i would need a strong episode to convince me after feeling let down by the writing. Do you have a favorite?
Season 7 Episode 4: That’s Amorte is incredible.
That’s where vacuum cleaner bags come from?!?
OK, yes, that was excellent. a multi watch EP for sure
What episode(s) or elements left you feeling let down? Just getting context.
Hmm… I got a feeling that the jokes were trending towards easier/cheap shock type. Hard to explain. Felt a bit of flanderization, like the writers were spinning their wheels. In the best way i can sum up a feeling so nebulous, i think maybe talking about the pickle rick episode is probably the best way i can describe what I’m feeling.
Most of pickle rick was just mouse gore and stuff but i loved the expansion on rick and daughters nasty relationship. Loved his reaction to the Doc. (Perhaps the subtext of the gore was all the hoops rick jumps thru rather than dealing with emotion, but it wasn’t a joy to watch) i … dunno… it doesn’t feel natural like it used to? Doesn’t seem like they’re (the writers) having any fun
One ep i liked, morty’s memories or whatever. No notes. Great episode.
Ah, i quit after season 4
I’d say pick it back up on Season 6, skip the knights of the sun episode that was a random regression to some of their worse writing for like the whole first 50% of the episode. Season 5 has some good ones but it’s also a bit mixed. Definitely don’t watch the dragonheart spoof episode that one is foul - I think it’s season 5?
That’s Amorte (S7) is a fantastic suggestion (saw that other comment)
If you’re into the Rick Prime/Evil Morty plot lines, know that S7E5 is INCREDIBLY consequential. As is the Season 5 finale (which kicks a ton of ass btw).
Im glad to hear they’re doing evil morty well. I’ll start with your rickomendation (and maybe that’s amorte too) and see if i can remember the love i had for the show
I didn’t even know the new season came out already :P
I’m guessing you are kind of joking, but to be clear this came out years ago haha
Most cops in North America barely even passed high school, you think they’d pick up on literary concepts like an anti-hero or even a morally gray character? They see protagonist, they automatically assume they’re unambiguously the good guy, no exceptions.
Idk I actually feel like they’ve seen exactly what the point is. You just have the occasional writer trying to morally absolve Frank for a few pages and then go right back to murdering with his super cool big guns
Hell let’s leave the comics for a second. Watch the opening of season 2 of the punisher on Netflix and tell me if that looks like any attempt at nuance/reflection on season 1 lol
The punisher is a murdering lawless maniac but I don’t think he’s a fascist, is he?
Punisher 2099 was fascist (Wouldn’t kill cops, and became part of Doom 2099’s regime when he took over America.) but Frank Castle Punisher (A.k.a. the one we know.)? Pretty much equal opportunity murderer of criminals and baddies.
I don’t think that makes him fascist, just a broken person with twisted morals attempting to do good (in his mind). IIRC, he makes no attempt to push his morals beyond himself.
In fact, doesn’t he specifically tell people not to be like him?? That’s very much NOT fascie behavior.
Idk, a lot of fascist ideology revolves around a single person being able to save society via strength and commitment. Instead of society being able to enact meaningful changes through the proper means, we need someone who can cut through the bureaucracy and just take out the “bad guys”.
Unfortunately a lot of western writing reinforces the belief that individual greatness can overcome even the most difficult situations. This isn’t saying that all western authors are fascist, rather that most of the stories we tell require a first person perspective for us to resonate with it.
This is why the most popular propaganda films in Nazi Germany weren’t films like triumph of the will, but instead were films like The Lives of a Bengal Lancer and Gabriel Over the Whitehouse.
I mean, isn’t that literally why he tells people to not be like him?
I think he was created to point at that exact issue.
I think it highlights the difficulty of attempting to profit from attempting to satire fascism. The people who understand nuance aren’t typically the crowd that needs to be reminded that fascism is bad, and the people who do need that reminder are so often selectively deaf to nuance that conflict with their ideology.
Punisher may have started as satire on fascism, but over the years there are going to be authors who are going to asses the importance of that aspect of the character differently. Some are going to take the original message to heart and make it the centerpiece of the story, others are just going to use it as a set piece to get to the vengeance and violence.
Over time the character turns from the cautionary tale of an antihero, to a piece of intellectual property used to sell stickers to chuds. Unfortunately the author has very little control of how people interpret their work.
See the entire collection of Warhammer lore.
lindsay ellis has a great video about satirizing fascism
I assume they mean “murderer of fascists?”
Has he ever been portrayed in comics killing fascists?
I do remember this one future one-off comic where he killed a bunch of rich pricks and politicians who even had a small repopulation program going, because they were the ones responsible for armageddon.
Rather than let them live and continue humanity, he killed them all for the crime of destroying it. Then he walked into the fire, ending his own life.
I’m not a big comic guy but I thought then and now that that was the perfect punisher story.
He did the only thing he knew how to do, to kill. a thing that definitely helped no one except for himself, then with no one else to punish he burned literally in the fire he was consumed with all his life.
That’s poetry.
Sounds like The Punisher: The End which starts with him in NY State Prison for his vigilantism when nuclear war breaks out.
I haven’t actually read any Punisher, but it sounded more plausible than The Punisher being fascist
I haven’t read a lot, but it would be interesting to see how corporate comics would write an ‘antifa’ Punisher. They would absolutely slander the movement, like with the Joker (Johann Most + L’Homme qui rit), the Flag Smasher, or Anarky. But it would still be a curious read.
Red Skull, Dr. Doom, and Hatemonger II, though the first two weren’t mainline continuity.
Holy shit, Hatemonger II’s weapon is a “Hate Ray” and he uses it on the Punisher to make him kill an antifascist Journalist! Punisher takes the assignment not because he hates fascists, but because they’re infringing on Captain America’s brand 🤣
A fascist is someone who supports a single strong leader with total control of the nation. ‘Dictator’ was an actual position in the Roman Republic; the people could vote to give one man absolute power for a period of time. Makes sense if you’re dealing with a natural disaster or invasion and don’t have time to go through the usual channels. Fascism became popular in the chaos of the post WW1 era. Things were changing rapidly, and conservatives wanted to rein in the ‘undesirables.’ Ironically, the Communist Russian Revolution was a huge spur to the creation of numerous fascist parties across Europe.
Frank Castle, the Punisher, is not a fascist. He isn’t interested in taking power for himself, and doesn’t want a dictator. He often speaks of having the greatest respect for Captain America, the guy who always chooses the side of liberty and fair play. Frank knows that he’s a criminal and a murderer. He just doesn’t care. IMHO if he and the Joker were both locked up and unable to kill each other, the two would get along fine.
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The Batman Punisher crossover has what you’re looking for. Bats stops Frank from ventilating Joker’s forehead.
If I was a particularly malicious comics writer I would make that the crossover universe the Injustice universe.
I want Mark Hamill Joker and Brad Garrett as Frank. BTW I’ve see Brad in person, and he’s a giant. Would have been perfect for Jack Reacher, instead of the pretty boy they used.
Stares at the camera sadly
Jim-faces
Conversation? He’s not Batman. Frank Castle would straight up annihilate Joker.
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Even captain america does plenty of fascist things mate, Punisher is definitely very close to fascism by the mere fact that he represents someone who thinks they are above the law and they know better and that they can deliver their version of justice.
Of course that alone doesn’t make him fascist, but the things superheroes are portrayed doing nowadays are very much things fascists like.
Id recommend checking out this excellent video from Folding Ideas for example
I don’t really see how he could be construed as one, other than the kneejerk “fascism is when bad things”.
The whole point is that he’s not like cops.
How fascist he is depends on who is writing him. His symbol is literally a stylized Nazi totenkopf, and while he has never voiced support for totalitarian leaders, his solution to crime - escalating the violence - is consistent with fascist ideology.
People used skulls as a symbol of death long before the Nazis.
Associating his symbol with that is a huge stretch.
Stretch? Gerry Conway, the original author, planned the character to use the totenkopf, and the artist re-worked the symbol.
Oh wow, I didn’t know that. I simply meant that they look nothing alike other than being skulls.
I don’t see the relation? Not all skull motifs are a totenkopf.
Seems like they specifically changed it in Pre production
Last time I went through US customs the agent checking me had his backpack behind him with a punisher patch (plus a thin blue line one, because of course he did). Gotta use true fashy believers to check all them damn immigrants and all that…
Thin blue line is a gang symbol. We need to normalize asking people with thin blue line bullshit why they’re flying gang symbols.
I’ve occasionally seen the black and white American flag with one red line instead of the blue one. Apparently it’s meant to show support for paramedics and firefighters. I wish that one was more popular.
Yeah, you really only see those often if you know firefighters/EMTs it seems.
I wish these groups would be more original and stop bastardizing the US flag. It also gives a creepy paramilitary vibe to what should be social support organizations.
The way they cropped it, they leave out the best part. Here’s the full interaction. 4 pages from Punisher #13:
Yeah, the whole bit about how they should be looking up to Captain America as a role model is the most important part.
Who is on the roof
Not immediately revealed in that issue, but in the next one it’s clear Black Widow has been following him.
Thank you. I was irritated that I couldn’t find this, but you’ve linked more and better versions anyway.
He’s definitely a lawless murderer, and the types of cops that display his insignia certainly seem to lean fascist, but what makes the Punisher fascist?
I think in this case “fascist” means “anything I don’t like.” You know, like “socialism”.
Am I that old? Words used to have meaning…
It means both things, you just have to pick apart who’s saying it.
Put another way, if someone is a fascist, one of the best things they can do is muddy the waters. Fascists love confusion about what they are. You’re never not going to deal with this problem.
Believes might makes right? But I read the headline here that he’s a fascist-murderer not a Fascist who is a murderer
Yeah, a murderer who targets fascists is how i read it.
Great point - I hadn’t considered that reading of it…
Yeah, but the Punisher isn’t a coward.
Here’s the full comic scene so you don’t need to skim through the whole article to get the bits and pieces of it.
There’s a saying I first heard from cops in my country and then later saw pop up in several TV shows, the last one clear in memory being The Rookie.
The saying embodies that whenever cops decide to group together to the point of getting a symbol or name for said group, it’s only a matter of time before they go to jail.
In corrupt countries, they may not actually go to jail, but the point is that whenever cops do this, criminality will always ensue.
I don’t know where the US fits in your consideration of corruption but cops very rarely go to jail here, even (especially?) when they form up around a symbol. Here’s one example: the long-lived murderous LA Sheriff’s Department gangs. https://knock-la.com/tradition-of-violence-lasd-gang-history/
The point is that when they label themselves with a symbol or name, they up to some criminal shit already or before long.
And yes, sections of US police are corrupt as cops get away with murder on a daily basis.
Corruption doesn’t need to mean they are on the take (although there’s probably plenty that are), it can also simply mean that they turn any level of blind eye for their own or external groups.
I saw a Don’t Tread on Me sticker right next to a Thin Blue Line sticker the other day (on the back of a giant fuck-off Ford truck, of course) and was like “that dude needs to make up his fuckin’ mind.”
“Tread harder, daddy!” seems more like it
I mean, to me the meaning of that juxtaposition is pretty clear.
The Gadsden flag highlights individual primacy, but the thin blue line sticker makes it clear that it’s his individual primacy that he’s concerned with. For an anti-authoritarian evoking that symbolism, the ‘me’ refers to the general autonomy of humanity or at least Americans, but in this case it probably literally refers to that specific individual’s autonomy or to the autonomy of the United States as a country in a nationalistic sense.
He’s basically just representing his subculture and thumping his chest about how nobody better tell him what to do or get in his way, while also showing that he’s affiliated with a big gang. Whether he’s aware of the racist speech the symbol is referencing or the symbol’s deeper meaning is kind of up in the air, but it still probably wouldn’t produce much conflict with his sense of nationalist autonomy in an authoritarian context regardless.
Honestly, it’s that context that I think makes the association with Punisher inevitable. Whether the character supports the current gang in charge or not, he clearly believes in an authoritarian model of crime and punishment; that’s the lens he views the world through and the impetus for his actions. If it’s satire, it certainly doesn’t read that way. Though, to be fair, the show is probably a lot more egregious in that regard than the comic (while also likely being more widely consumed).
Frank Castle supports authoritarian measures so much that he goes beyond what the legal system allows for. He literally names himself after an action designed to reinforce authoritarian hierarchy. Sounds pretty on the nose to me.
It’s a lot easier to lick boots when they are stepping on you.
The image is kind of wrong. The punisher does not hate cops. He doesn’t like cops that celebrate what he does.
I have read a lot of punisher over the years, and the thing that always infuriates me is how much handwringing there is by some of the writers that always ends up backsliding into “but it’s still pretty cool that he murders people with his super cool guns and a skull on his chest.” The only way to truly break from that image is to completely abandon who the punisher is and enter a new phase entirely that does not regress again. It needs to be like God of War 4. Kratos is not the same person he once was. Yes he is capable of violence, but he clearly does not relish it and does everything he can to avoid conflict as well as truly tries to teach his son that actions have consequences. He has had a spiritual change, essentially, and it is reflected in his actions and demeanor. No, he has not mastered it, no it is not perfect, but he is consistently trying to be better and grow. I cannot say the same for Frank Castle. It always becomes “…but I have to” when he’s barely tried anything else as he then instigates conflict.
Brief moments of “the punisher is actually kind of bad y’all“ that is always surrounded by constant firearm fetishization and glorifying murder/masculinity is just not convincing. No amount of little moments of clarity can fix that.
It’s like all those non-Catholic Christians who display Crusader symbols. They are forgetting that the Crusaders would have murdered believers like them in a heartbeat. Plus the Crusaders probably killed more Christians than Muslims and Jews, since the Muslim conquerors would force the local Christian population to fight on their side.
The Christians, at least during the 3rd crusade fought because they knew the crusaders would murder them despite being Christian. King Richard ‘the lion heart’ had entire towns brutally murdered for mere convenience. Christians looked to Saladin since he was their refuge from the europeans and when he sacked cities didnt banish or commit genocide. Saladin ended up losing his support in the end because he limited his army from pillaging.
Is he fascist?
I don’t read a lot of punisher comics.
To be perfectly clear about my experience with this character, I have watched the thomas jane punisher movie, which is a straight up vengeance movie.
But I never got the impression the punisher was fascist.
He doesn’t seem like a pro-dictatorship kind of guy.
Is he, in the comics?
Did one of us misread? Title says fascist murderer like I took it as he kills them.
Grammar is funny that way it could be interpreted your way or it could be interpreted as “fascist who murders”
English is pretty amazing. You can say two (or more) different things with just two words.
I would guess you misread that, it seems like a grammatically unlikely interpretation given the context.
In the article, the phrase is describing the punisher in light of the police worship of a " lawless, fascist murderer", so I would expect both of those adjectives to be referring to the punisher.
And I don’t think the punisher is known for killing fascists either, although I’m willing to defer to someone who has read any of the comics.
No he’s not. The point is that cops wearing his symbol are fucking idiots. The punisher is a lawless vigilante who hates cops. Cops - an organization created to enforce laws - have no business wearing the symbol of a lawless vigilante, and they’re stupid idiots for wearing the symbol of one that hates their whole organization.
He doesn’t hate cops. He fully buys the thin blue line bullcrap for “the good ones.”
He hates cops that would try to do what he does.
Read Punisher: Max. They did, I think. Works with and likes cops in that one. Very fascist tone.
No doubt cops idolizing the punisher are fascists and idiots, i just think it’s a strikingly prominent, inaccurate title and focus for the article.
Well I think the issue is that you equate fascism with pro dictatorship stuff, people being seen as exceptional and above the law and shouldn’t be questioned are part of fascism, look at the adoration Trump gets despite his crimes, look how ready they are to excuse it and look at him like a savior that will fix it all, does that not feel similar to how superheroes are portrayed?
I am using the definition of fascism, yes, to point out that the punisher does not fit that definition.
Your connection between Trump and the punisher is untenable; Trump is an immature wannabe dictator starving for attention living in a self-created world of illusions, deliberately and vocally ignoring the practical realities around him, and paying others to keep him in power as long as possible.
The punisher is a solo vigilante quietly skulking around in the shadows whose main purpose is revenge for his family with no interest in becoming a leader or even a part of society. He takes matters into his own hands, literally.
The video you posted has a pretty strong “i’m 14 and this is deep” vibe, it’s a narrow conclusion-driven critique of extremely limited facets of a few pg-13 movie characters.
Superman was created by two Jewish teens who eventually used the hero to tell stories about fighting specifically fascism, and real world terrors like mine collapses.
None of those heroes want to be a leader, they all have special hideaway places that they self-inter themselves so that they won’t become some sort of leader that they know they shouldn’t be.
The video isn’t a valid critique of any of those heroes. Culturally insensitive American movies making Americans look good or special as the heroes isn’t exactly a new thing or particular to superheroes. Brendan Fraser did it in the mummy. Most movies with a hero from any country do that.
What does it matter who created superman? Or what he did in the past when talking about his specific portrayal in Man of Steel.
And you still keep talking about wanting to be a dictator as it being a core facet of being a fascist, it isn’t
Punisher isn’t fascist but he certainly acts in a way and does things that Fascists like and want to do, hence why he is a such a symbol for the thin blue line cop crowd.
Because the creators determined who the character would be and how people would portray him for so far 80 years, in stark contrast to a very brief portrayal by a very small team.
It’s irresponsible to draw a character conclusion from such a limited sample.
And while agree that punisher is not fascist, I disagree that he does things fascists want to do and acts in a way fascists like to act.
He’s a symbol simply because of his violence. Cops have a license to bully and use violence, and while the punisher does not, police officers can’t imagine a world where you don’t have a license to commit those kind of crimes, and so they falsely empathize with the punisher.
Mate you are weirdly defensive, no one is drawing character conclusions about Superman the video is specifically about modern day portrayals of superheroes he makes it clear like multiple times.
The punisher self appoints himself as judge jury and executioner that is very much fascistic, maybe you are not exactly clear of what fascism is after all.
In my opinion Cops like the Punisher because they see themselves as above others (the core tenet of fascism) as enforcers of the law who sometimes have to go beyond what’s allowed to ensure safety of others and a lot of them have racial biases to put it mildly making them more than just fascist adjacent.
Now since you are only familiar with the Thomas Jane version that’s just a revenge story as you yourself said, I’d recommend checking out Daredevil, In season 2 Punisher comes in and then there is an excellent Punisher standalone series on Netflix, where the first season is better than the second.
Now since they want the character to be likeable he does stuff like fucking up a pedophile because well who is gonna have an issue with that. But that really is just a few steps away from punsihing black and other minority criminals which is what cops see themselves doing.
I’m defensive specifically about the points we’re talking about, and yes, people are drawing specifically historically and culturally incorrect character conclusions about Superman as explained in that simplistic video.
There isn’t anything weird about mentioning the specific examples that refute llogical supplemental materials that draw incorrect conclusions about the personality of certain characters.
I do agree that it seems like you don’t understand what fascism is, because you keep describing vigilanteism as if it is the same thing as fascism, while vigilanteism is almost diametrically opposed to fascism.
Fascism is the employment of a governmental body to enact a singular governmental perspective within which no participant may disagree, legally, societally, or civilly.
The punisher is a lone vigilante uninterested in controlling anything, singularly focused on revenge for specific injustices.
It’s just not the same thing.
Vigilantism definitely shares traits with fascism.
Fascism is the employment of a governmental body to enact a singular governmental perspective within which no participant may disagree, legally, societally, or civilly.
I mean that’s just hilariously wrong, it implies there are is no fascism if the government isn’t fascist.
What you described is totalitarianism
a system of government that is centralized and dictatorial and requires complete subservience to the state.
Which is an aspect of fascism but not the definition.
Here this guy does a good job of describing white fascism:
Wasn’t his whole thing that he takes the extra steps to stop people from ever doing bad things again? I’ve also not read punisher though.
Yeah but the extra steps are just shooting them in the face or snapping their necks.
Can’t commit a crime if your face was eaten by piranhas
That’s what I meant by extra steps tbh
Cool, then I’ll just say yes and we can both pretend we know what we’re talking about hahaha.
Depends on the writer. Sometimes he’s a contractor for the American government, he’s been a Frankenstein and an Iron Man, sometimes an outright fascist, sometimes killing fascists.
Depends which comics. People say it’s ironic cops use the Punisher skull, they say the character hates cops. These people never read Punisher: MAX. It’s not ironic, it’s right on brand. Plus people that read it in like 2008 are sometimes 30 year old cops now.
Oh, thank you for this, I was waiting for someone who knew anything about the comics to chime in. I’m going to check that out immediately.
The Punisher is a monster whose only redeeming feature is that he preys on those worse than him.
I don’t even think that is a redeeming feature since he probably gets his targets wrong as frequently as cops do.
Gwenpool knew what to do with The Punisher.
Cops are some of the biggest fan boys out there. The movie ‘The French Connection*’ inspired them to wear Popeye’s hat and ankle holster. Magnum PI inspired them to grow mustaches. The TV show Hill Street Blues got them wearing turtlenecks.
*If you haven’t seen it, watch ‘The French Connection.’ Great New York locations, Oscar winning actors, and one of the best car chases ever filmed.
Co-opting stuff isn’t about understanding.
