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“Erm akshurally, the correct term for sending troops into another country without concent is invasion. However, when its one of the Good Guy Countries™ its called self-defense and promoting international law. If you disagree then you clearly hate freedom and democracy, you’re also a Russian bot” -☝️🤓
I can’t believe they would allow blatant antisemitism on this website, how could you
Ikr, clearly I need to be locked away for thought crimes. How else are we supposed to protect freedom?
God damn that is like word for word how every time I have lightly called out an invasion from the US/Israel. I’m some people see this shit besides me.
The West controls this narrative theough media, propaganda and social media. The constant fucking Isreal dick sucking is finally being noticed by a few.
Can israel just chill for once and can we stop giving them any help
With the upcoming US election, Bibi knows no one will take action, least it upsets the AIPAC.
So he is using this period as a window of opportunity to do this shit.
That’s anti semitism /s
Unfortunately there are too many fascists and too many Christian fanatics who believe that Israel and the wars it is doing are necessary for the rapture to happen.
Funny they believe they can make their God come back to destroy the little project He/She/They/It created so the most sniveling, back stabbing, and sanctimonious 1% can go a special place of wonder, happiness, and peace in the universe.
And then those 1% would destroy that place as well.
That’s the best fucking response I heard to that in a long time. I wish I could upvote more than once.
Yet another reason religion is a scourge.
Rapture but I guess it’s a rupture potentially as well.
Zionists have written that none of their surrounding countries are ‘nations’ in a legal sense and thus their land is free for the taking… by them exclusively. No fucking joke. I want to post my source later.
These people are worse than the Nazis.
It’s just the “empty land” myth that all genocidal colonizers have used as a pretext updated for modern times.
I have no idea how any of them can call it an empty land when there have been people continuously living there since the goddamn stone age! I mean Lebanon has had extensive trade with Greece and Egypt even during the Bronze age. What the FUCK are these people even talking about? Even Palestine is much older than that.
There was a site called Masada 2000 that had some of the most brazen bullshit hasbara you’ve ever heard to the extent that they claimed that there was no such thing as a Palestinian before 1967 (as bullshitted by Golda Meir, the bitch) or that the word Palestine did not exist until 1917. They cite no sources because it is such a brazen lie.
Please post the source when you can. I’d love to share it with my holdout relatives who still think Isreal can’t be “that bad”.
It’s this meme all over again but this time it’s Israel vs. Russia.
would’ve been a different story is Ukrainians were sufficiently brown
Or if the southern Lebanese had been fighting a civil war for eight years and asking for Israeli help.
Quickly, turn on propaganda, turn on Soloviev!
American media being more pro-Israel than mainstream Israeli media is continuously baffling
And we expect the biggest wepon exporter to stop it! The world is probably doomed.
I was listening to German news this morning, and you could hear the anchor drooling when they were speaking about Israel’s invasion of Lebanon. Like, holy fuck, can we stop pretending all of this is normal and okay?
Well Germany is slipping into fascism with the AFD too.
Is AFD pro-Israel?
Most European far right parties are backed by israel
2021 - Far-Right Parties in Europe Have Become Zionism’s Greatest Backers
Last year, Yair Netanyahu, son of former Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, became the literal poster boy for the German right-wing party Alternative für Deutschland (AfD).
Netanyahu’s eldest son had provoked controversy when he called for the abolition of the “evil” European Union, which, he argued, was an enemy to Israel and “all European Christian countries.”
Far-right support for Israel is not unique to Germany but is developing across Europe. Alongside the AfD’s Alice Weidel, far-right leaders like Geert Wilders in the Netherlands, Marine Le Pen in France, Nigel Farage in the UK, and Viktor Orbán in Hungary have all openly sided with Israel.
Oh. So the intersections between Russia and Israel are even bigger than I thought.
Frankly IMHO Russia, Turkey, Azerbaijan and Israel are in fact a system (maybe even a de-facto alliance) allowing them to be “in different blocks”, but work for the same interest. It’s not very well hidden though, Israel wouldn’t have fuel, steel and textile without Turkey, Turkey would be the main target of justified hate and freedom fighters on ME without Israel, Azerbaijan would quickly find its forgotten place without Russia, Russia wouldn’t entertain its corridors and logistics ambitions without Azerbaijan (and also power projection via its hands but with western military tech), Turkey wouldn’t have leverage on western countries without Russia, and Russia would have less power to stir shit up without Turkey.
A bit similar to how Armenia and Georgia are sort of a micro-system, where together they won’t be immediately eaten by countries from the previous list. But with them it’s clearly visible - if Azeris\Turks\Russians press Armenia down enough, they don’t need Georgia, if they press Georgia down enough, they don’t need Armenia. Both are very close to happening and would mean the end of both countries, unless somebody intervenes militarily, which is unlikely.
Israel always plays all sides and will happily destroy their “allies” to install leaders which are loyal to them.
Israel said to be the source of intel Trump gave to Russians
It’s also the reason why israel never openly sent weapons to Ukraine and withheld from condemning Russia at the UN (there are reports of israel being pressured into secretly sending weapons to Ukraine by the US)
If America starts falling as a superpower israel will gladly switch sides and volunteer as a military base for Russia or China. Backstabbing their allies is a timeless israeli classic.
I don’t think they’ll drop the relationship with USA ever. They already have the kind of relations with Russia, China, India that any other country would get punished for. They just have too many spies and blackmailed politicians in there. It won’t ever be weak enough to stop being valuable.
But I think the moment Israel loses the protection of nuclear superpowers, it’s done.
You have basically two sites. One loves the fact that Arabs and Jews kill each other and want the war to continue. They support ending German aid to Palestine and so forth. The other wants to end US warmongering in the region, caused by US support of Islamic terrorist in attacking Israel. Yes I did not mix that up, the US according to some in the AFD Biden supports Hamas.
But afaik they support continuing aid to Israel. That ensures the greatest suffering inflicted on the greatest number of muslims
OK, I wasn’t sure about German politics and thought that maybe AFD is not so bad, if they are against the establishment and so on.
Now I’m sure they are the same shit, just boiled.
They are not against the Establishment. They are the German Trump-Party.
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you’re getting your political information/opinion from a social media thread??
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no, they’re really that bad. They wanted to sink ships with immigrants, they demanded a “180° turn in our rememberance-culture about the third Reich”
You’ve got an Israeli flag near your nickname, so my algorithm of getting such yields better results than yours apparently. They are not worth it, find an Artsakh flag.
No, not just from that, but I’m not comfortable with Germany as a whole. Pretty cannibalistic opinions come from Germans on the Web sometimes, I don’t like German fashion and manner of discussion, being part Jewish - they often support most shameful things to me, being part Armenian - they often think that decency can be replaced with Israel worship.
And a few German politicians I’d like to see hanged.
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Thanks for this. I have a German friend that can’t talk about this without whining about how it’s upsetting and oh the jewish people in Germany are reminded of the holocaust and they’re afraid now and Hamas aren’t perfect victims and nobody is allowed to protest because protests are antisemitic so we just have to let Israel flatten Palestine and continue their apartheid with our tax dollars. And oh man I don’t really know anything about it but I still disagree with you and my perfect english is suddenly not good enough to explain my non position because everyone just wants to be right.
I stopped talking to that German friend, but I’d like to know how to get past that brick wall if we ever do talk again.
Israels support of Hamas is a pretty good starting point. That one pretty clearly shows, how the Israeli government continues that situation.
The other one is looking at the situation from an Israeli perspective. Iran is the most open anti Israel country right now. A lot of other countries in the region, do not like Iran either and are somewhat willing to work together with Israel. That is Saudi Arabia for example. The issue is that the situation in Palestine is preventing that alliance from forming. So a deal with the Palestinians gives Israel greater security in the region as well. If done right that would only mean the northern border to Lebanon and Syria is challenged.
Well I already tried the first thing and he didn’t believe me.
That’s an interesting perspective though, I’ll have to think on that. Thanks!
so…
you believe a random internet comment more than your “friend”?
you’re ridiculing him for not being able to explain his position in his non-native language and you’re accusing him of “just wants to be right”
I honestly think it’s better if you don’t talk to him again.
Anyways, there’s a rise in antisemitic crimes, there’s a lot of antisemitic rethoric during these protests and they’re covertly used to spread anti-semitic, pro-iranian talking-points. Your friend is right.
I recommend these two: https://www.arte.tv/de/videos/117974-000-A/das-system-hamas/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84gsvAKzxbg&pp=ygULc3RyZyBmIGlyYW4%3D
provided you’re actually interested in the topic and dont “just wants to be right”
I’ll be sure to let you know when I start taking advice from lemmy on my personal relationships.
He was using “everyone just wants to be right” as an excuse to shut down. His very weak rationalizations to not take a stance yet reject any advocacy for the humanity of palestinians were very transparent and I found it both disgusting and insulting. He would claim he didn’t know enough, to not know “what does Hamas even want”, but told me he’d have to see my sources on everything I tried to explain to him. Especially when I told him about Israel’s lies of sexual violence that occurred October 7th (which was his main talking point, “you don’t rape people”. Well, there’s not a shred of evidence that they did) and then threatened to mute our chat for sending these sources without reading or viewing them because they were “too long” or cited a tweet at some point, and I assume he did mute me but idk cause that’s where things ended.
I understand that antisemitism is rising. That is happening everywhere. You also have the AFD on the rise (which he denied). That can hardly be blamed on Palestinian activists. If anything, Israel is to blame for manufacturing the situation. Fascists co-opting the movement because they want to see both sides destroy each other is hardly any reason to continue funding Israel as they wage a genocidal war, nor is it one to shut down any democratic process on the matter. They are poisoning the discourse and you are playing right into it.
And no, I refuse to accept your framing that anything Iran does is automatically bad, antisemitic, or out of proportion to the situation. Israel is no more righteous in this than they are and is actively provoking a regional conflict with weapons that we are providing.
The article about the invasion on Poland wasn’t any better.
The NYT published the proclamation of Hitler verbatim without criticizing it, and reported the German lie that Poland attacked first as fact.
Berlin, Friday, Sept. 1–Charging that Germany had been attacked, Chancellor Hitler at 5:11 o’clock this morning issued a proclamation to the army declaring that from now on force will be met with force and calling on the armed forces “to fulfill their duty to the end.”
The text of the proclamation reads:
*"To the defense forces:
The Polish nation refused my efforts for a peaceful regulation of neighborly relations; instead it has appealed to weapons. Germans in Poland are persecuted with a bloody terror and are driven from their homes. The series of border violations, which are unbearable to a great power, prove that the Poles no longer are willing to respect the German frontier. In order to put an end to this frantic activity no other means is left to me now than to meet force with force. German defense forces will carry on the battle for the honor of the living rights of the re- awakened German people with firm determination. I expect every German soldier, in view of the great tradition of eternal German soldiery, to do his duty until the end. Remember always in all situations you are the representatives of National Socialist Greater Germany! Long live our people and our Reich!Berlin, Sept. 1, 1939. Adolf Hitler"*
The commander-in-chief of the air force issued a decree effective immediately prohibiting the passage of any airplanes over German territory excepting those of the Reich air force or the government. This morning the naval authorities ordered all German mercantile ships in the Baltic Sea not to run to Danzig or Polish ports. Anti-air raid defenses were mobilized throughout the country early this morning. A formal declaration of war against Poland had not yet been declared up to 8 o’clock [3 A.M. New York time] this morning and the question of whether the two countries are in a state of active belligerency is still open.
Reichstag Will Meet Today Foreign correspondents at an official conference at the Reich Press Ministry at 8:30 o’clock [3:30 A.M. New York time] were told that they would receive every opportunity to facilitate the transmission of dispatches. Wireless stations have been instructed to speed up communications and the Ministry is installing additional batteries of telephones. The Reichstag has been summoned to meet at 10 o’clock [5 A.M. New York time] to receive a more formal declaration from Herr Hitler. The Hitler army order is interpreted as providing, for the time being, armed defense of the German frontiers against aggression. The action is also suspected of forcing international diplomatic action. The Germans announced that foreigners remain in Polish territory at their own risk. Flying over Polish territory as well as the maritime areas is forbidden by the German authorities and any violators will be shot down. When Herr Hitler made his announcement Berlin’s streets were still deserted except for the conventional early traffic, and there were no outward signs that the nation was finding itself in the first stages of war. The government area was completely deserted, and the two guards doing sentry duty in front of the Chancellery remained their usual mute symbol of authority. It was only when official placards containing the orders to the populace began to appear on the billboards that early workers became aware of the situation.
Border Clashes Increase Berlin, Friday, Sept. 1–An increasing number of border incidents involving shooting and mutual Polish-German casualties are reported by the German press and radio. The most serious is reported from Gleiwitz, a German city on the line where the southwestern portion of Poland meets the Reich. At 8 P.M., according to the semi-official news agency, a group of Polish insurrectionists forced an entrance into the Gleiwitz radio station, overpowering the watchmen and beating and generally mishandling the attendants. The Gleiwitz station was relaying a Breslau station’s program, which was broken off by the Poles. They proceeded to broadcast a prepared proclamation, partly in Polish and partly in German, announcing themselves as “the Polish Volunteer Corps of Upper Silesia speaking from the Polish station in Gleiwitz.” The city, they alleged, was in Polish hands. Gleiwitz’s surprised radio listeners notified the police, who halted the broadcast and exchanged fire with the insurrectionists, killing one and capturing the rest. The police are said to have discovered that the attackers were assisted by regular Polish troops. The Gleiwitz incident is alleged here to have been the signal “for a general attack by Polish franctireurs on German territory.” Two other points–Pitsachen, near Kreuzburg, and Hochlinden, northeast of Ratibor, both in the same vicinity as Gleiwitz, were the scenes of violations of the German boundary, it is claimed, with fighting at both places still under way.
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0901.html
The NYT published the proclamation of Hitler verbatim without criticizing it
Yes that is how journalism works. It is a report not the op-ed you seem to want it to be. If you want to be told how to feel, as opposed to reports, don’t look to journalism.
The main job of the news is to decide what to publish.
The NYT made the decision to simply re-publish what Hitler and the German press had to say about the attack, 6 years after Hitler had abolished democracy and any free press in Germany, and after Germany had illegally annexed the Sudetenland.
So, you’re saying the NYT hasn’t changed much?
Liberal media aided fascists in the past and continue to aid fascists and authoritarian now.
It’s fascinating that when I’ve called out NYT for promoting invasions for the US and Israel, and whitewashing racist actions by both, I’m called a Russian bot who hates facts and reality and need to go back to Russia or whatever the thought terminating cliche of the time was.
When I use the same NYT as proof for anything bad “The Good Guy In Office” does (Drone strikes, blocking labor, illegal occupations), they’re bought out soulless corporate media and we should never trust a single thing they have ever said.
I think peoples view that the increasingly partisan media has political aims is causing them to forget these are companies.
They are making money (or trying) and they will say or do whatever furthers that aim. They are not out for the public good, they can’t be.
If you want proof just look at CNN and their waffling in the last 10 years as they try to both sides shit so as to not lose increasingly shrinking cable news subscribers.
Germans in Poland are persecuted with a bloody terror and are driven from their homes. The series of border violations, which are unbearable to a great power, prove that the Poles no longer are willing to respect the German frontier.
It’s so crazy to see most of the israeli propaganda literally being straight out of the Nazi playbook.
This is because there is no fundamental difference between the two. Only the windows dressing is different.
And Russians about Ukraine… we live in interesting times indeed
Exactly my thoughts. You could copy that speech from the beginning, replace every instance of Germany/Germans with Russia/Russians, replace Poland with Ukraine, and you’ll have milions of people nodding as saying: “Yes, that makes sense, defend Russia!”
It’s propaganda because it works. Unfortunately. Because now these are just known manipulation tactics proven to work. And we still don’t really have a way to fight them—except that one old fashioned way and, hey, Nazis can get killed as far as I’m concerned.
Add the NKVD too.
“Annexes”?
Let’s take a complex situation, make it worse, set it on fire, then spray the fire with gasoline from a fire hose. What’s the worst that could happen?
Well, it is obviously a special military operation to denazify and demilitarise the terrorist militia of other country, because it threatens peace and security. /s
Seriously, isn’t this like called a war declaration or something? If you bomb another country and move in troops and kill civilians?
Ah youre talking about what hamas and hezbola have been doing.
Yep, actually I am as well. War crimes can be committed by both sides.
There wasn’t much declarations of war since ww2. Even the US was only technically at war when Panama declared war on them after the US invaded them. Ukraine isn’t technically at war with Russia, they actually do business together transferring gas to Europe. The world is strange.
The US formally declared war on Iraq and Afghanistan. That’s what an AUMF is.
Yeah well there’s no accounting for them being too dumb to remember they passed the War Powers Act specifically to prevent the President from conducting war without a declaration. And that they specifically voted for the AUMFs as designated by the War Powers Act.
It’s literally the vehicle by which they exercise that constitutional power. Of course they would then have to admit they declared official war on the concept of terrorism.
The first paragraph makes that pretty clear, but they added two more just to make it crystal clear.
It is the purpose of this chapter to fulfill the intent of the framers of the Constitution of the United States and insure that the collective judgment of both the Congress and the President will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, and to the continued use of such forces in hostilities or in such situations.
Under article I, section 8, of the Constitution, it is specifically provided that the Congress shall have the power to make all laws necessary and proper for carrying into execution, not only its own powers but also all other powers vested by the Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces.
Click here for the actual text of the law.
Edit - I just went ahead and added them. I am so tired of this purely semantic argument meant to make the US look worse than it is.
That’s kinda the point. There are no “Afghanistan” or “Iraq” in AUMF and it was used to wage wars unrelated to 9/11.
So AQ didn’t fly the planes?
I don’t get what this question is about.
Don’t forget, Germany had the right to defend itself.
Iean ya failed history of you think these things are even remotely similar
Hezbollah has been launching rockets daily. Hardly the same as a false flag fire
Why is the first part of October missing data?
The strikes began on the 8th, but no casualties. That’s when the data for the chart begins
The next day, Hezbollah fired at Israel in response to Israel killing 3 Hezbollah members from bombardment of Southern Lebanon
The Lebanese armed group Hezbollah has fired a barrage of rockets into Israel after at least three of its members were killed during an Israeli bombardment of southern Lebanon amid soaring tensions on Israel’s northern border.
Previous strikes in October were in retaliation to assassination
Before the assassination,
Until recently, the border had been relatively quiet. Occasional rockets or drones crossed from Lebanon into Israel without leading to serious escalation, while Israel violated Lebanese airspace more than 22,000 times from 2007 to 2022.
Are you attempting to justify genocide?
hezbollah is related to palestine now? Or have they killed like 10000 Lebanese people already?
I see you’re not even trying to deny that Hezbollah has, indeed, been firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel nearly every day.
But you’re right, the situation IS exactly the same! You know, as long as you ignore those pesky things like facts.
Oh, you have me all wrong, friend.
I don’t deny that Hezbollah has fired rockets indiscriminately into Israel every single day. If I had rockets and someone was genociding my people, I’d fire them.
I just don’t deny that Israel has been conducting a full genocide of the people of Gaza, using the war as an excuse.
Only, one is a little worse. Innit?
Why in the fuck are you defending imperialism and genocide?
I see you’re not even trying to deny that Hezbollah has, indeed, been firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel nearly every day.
I mean Israel was doing exactly the same thing. Literally the same thing. Their “targeted” airstrikes aren’t any better than what Hezbollah does.
If the equivalent punishment for a pin-prick is a beheading, then maybe you have a case.
beheading? What the fuck happened in the twelve hours since this was first reported on. I’m so confused.
The modern shit show between the brothers, Isaac and Ishmael, started in 1882. It’s about time for the insane family blood feud to end.
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Yeah because Poland was launching missiles on German villages behind the border for a full year. Duh.
People hating IL so much that they just leave entire parts of the conflict out and then feel good about “doing the eight thing” are a part of the problem.
I agree completely that Hezbollah makes up a huge problem, and after their involvement in Syria there’s not a hint of legitimacy left in the organization if there ever was any.
But one would do well that to remember their origins: They are what’s left of the resistance from the last time Israel invaded Lebanon. So that’s what a great fucking success that was.
And Hezbollah are not Lebanon. They control territory, and they need to be fought, but this in not how one fights terrorist organizations. This is how you create terrorist organizations. Which is exactly what Israel did the last time they invaded.
but that’s the point, it keeps their surrounding neighbors destabilized
“Nazis weren’t so bad”
I’m reading this wrong, correct? I have had intoxicating agents.
holy shit this entire fucking thread is brain dead dude.
Im pretty sure the V2 literally didn’t exist before they invaded poland. I’m 95% sure that’s the joke here.
Uh… Israel was and still is committing genocide. And before that it was Apartheid and slower genocide. Setting aside the idea of refugees and how Lebanon is next after Gaza and the West Bank, every country in the world has a duty under international law to stop genocide and other crimes against humanity. The fact that Israel is committing genocide is, in and of itself, is a casus belli. This is the exact same thing the Allies get praised for in WWII. Also you’re phrasing it like Israel wasn’t responding each of these rockets with a lot more rockets, but even if we ignore all that: Israel made the conscious decision to escalate the conflict with Hezbollah with the pager attack and subsequent airstrikes.
And the paper attacks were targeted mostly at civilians and Healthcare workers. Who use those things the most.
Also that ploy would have taken YEARS to prepare for, given the logistics involved in making the shell companies and finding out how to make sure the bulk of those devices ended up in Lebanon. Meaning nothing that happened in October 2023 had anything to do with that ploy.
The fact that Israel is committing genocide is, in and of itself, is a casus belli. This is the exact same thing the Allies get praised for in WWII.
No, unfortunately not really. The extent of the Holocaust was not uncovered until the Allies moved into Germany and took the concentration camps. Britain was at war due to their guarantee of Polish sovereignty, the US was at war due to Pearl Harbor, and Germany declaring war on them a few days later. Nobody went into WW2 to stop a genocide. China and the USSR were at war due to being invaded.
While some credit is given to stopping the Holocaust, certainly, that was largely a side effect of simply winning WW2.
While some credit is given to stopping the Holocaust, certainly, that was largely a side effect of simply winning WW2.
Yeah, I know. My phrasing was bad. I meant they’re being praised for fighting Germany and stopping thr Holocaust, not that they entered WWII to stop the Holocaust. I was trying to point out the ridiculousness of criticizing a country trying to stop genocide happening close to it.
Which one? Clearly anything Hamas does is justified retaliation, so Israel is retaliating enough just there won’t be significant retaliation.
Clearly anything Hamas does is justified retaliation
No? They definitely weren’t justified in raping and killing civilians in October 7th. However, as an oppressed and occupied people, they have a permanent casus belli against Israel until the latter starts taking serious steps towards peace, so the act of attacking Israel on October 7th (remember that 66% of the dead were military or security targets; they didn’t just kill some civilians and leave) itself is a legitimate act of resistance.
Which one? Clearly anything Hamas does is justified retaliation
im pretty sure internationally recognized terrorism isn’t considered to be justified or retaliation, but it’s the middle east, so that’s something that sort of just, happens sometimes. That would probably explain why israel is reacting so violently.
China and the USSR were at war due to being invaded.
the chinese leg of the conflict is particularly goofy.
China had two, or three parties at one point, all fighting for control over the country. There was the communist party (backed by the soviets) There was the democratic party (backed by the US) and then there was also japan doing it’s thing trying to take over china as well.
Prior to this there was the russo japanese war, which was an equally big shitpost, the russians having been fucking broiled by the japanese over it, though a different story.
This is the weakest slowest genocide ever then
I guess we shouldn’t have intervened in the whole Yugoslavia thing then, I mean, clearly we have to wait until like 40% of the ethnic minority is dead!
what are the statistics for ethnic deaths here anyway? How far up the chain have we gotten?
I mean we’re looking at at least 10%. That’s… Uh… A lot, to say the least.
i mean, up to 10% is quite a bit. That’s still 90% of the population existing though, so i’m not sure that’s to the levels of genocide, as defined by uh, genocide. Which would be ethnic cleansing.
If we’re going by existing figures, that’s like what, 2.5% of the population. I feel like famines have probably killed more people, and that war has most definitely contributed more deaths to this as well.
Uh… Did you not hear of that one Lancet study about how it’s likely for every documented death there are 5 undocumented deaths? Do you understand how the Gazan healthcare system has already collapsed and they’re unable to count the dead? Even just taking the current 41k and multiplying them by 5 gives 205 thousand, or more than 10% of Gaza’s population. All of Gaza is in famine, with North Gaza faring the worst, and Israel still refuses to let aid in. How do you call 10% of the population (already more than all Hamas members) dying anything other than a genocide?
How do you call 10% of the population (already more than all Hamas members) dying anything other than a genocide?
uh, simple. The definition of genocide as defined in the dictionary is an “ethnic cleansing” and if we assume this to be the “correct” definition, for the sake of argumentative purpose here.
It must follow, as defined that if the conflict were to stop, that israel would stop killing Palestinians. Since this has been going on for like 80 years or something, it’s hard to say, but i think it’s probably fair to say that israel would stop killing people if they came to a peace agreement.
However, this changes a little bit if we pull into the definition of genocide as defined by the UN or something, which is a lot more broad, likely due to legal deliberation, this is extremely common. Now i don’t know of any ruling from the ICC the ICJ, or the UN that classifies this as a “genocide” though i know the ICJ has said that this could very well be genocide. And that the ICC has pushed a warrant containing multiple war crimes for netanyahu.
Though to be fair, i haven’t read into anything the UN has said on this conflict specifically, so i could be mistaken there just due to sheer ignorance lol.
I know numerous “countries” have claimed as such, but i believe that very few have specifically stated as such, there has been a lot of public outcry, and im sure a number of politicians against this. But to my knowledge, only south africa has stated that this “is a genocide” however accurate that quote is, though to be fair again, i don’t know much about this one either.
I mean take a look at South Africa’s case. They have evidence of genocidal acts (causing significant harm to an ethnic group) and genocidal intent (the countless quotes from high ranking Israeli officials calling for genocide). It’s genocide; it’s just that the case is taking a while.
yeah, and if we take a look at south africas case, it’s not “genocide” it appears that it has reasonable extent to be genocide. Which are two different things.
You’re doing guilty until proven innocent here, which, is weird. Even weirder, when i see people calling for the literal denazification of israel.
As far as the two requirements go here, those are two very broad, and not very specific statements, genocidal acts is incredibly broad, so broad in fact that the vast majority of things that would apply, are probably not genocide. Intent is a lot clearer, but then you also have to consider military and governmental intent, rather than just personal statements. Civil intent is also a big problem here as well. I’m not convinced that the majority of israel literally wants to ethnically cleanse palestinians. Or that the governmental figures do to begin with, albeit they aren’t doing themselves a favor when they say super sus shit like that either.
Though this is also the middle east, and from my knowledge, this kind of death toll and fighting is not unusual? They tend to have very aggressive opinions on this stuff for some reason.
so in summary here, you’ve basically said, well, it sort of looks like a duck, and the sound it makes is vaugely similar to a duck, so this weird silhouette behind the sheet here must be a duck, there is no possible alternative in this situation.
Also. wouldn’t it follow, that if the evidence were SO telling in this case, that this legal case would probably be over a little bit quicker than it seems to be taking right now? It’s weird that we’re even deliberating on the verdict before it’s happened, and it’s even weirder that you seem to be 100% confident about it, even though im assuming you have basically the same knowledge level that i do on it.
Maybe i’m wrong, and you’ve written a PHD dissertation on conflict in the middle east, and have extensively studied israel and it’s history, but i’m going to go out on a limb here and say since you’re yelling at me on lemmy, you probably haven’t.
Notice how im not 100% confident on the statements i make? Even though i’d be pretty willing to bet money on this, i’m still not going to authoritatively state it either. It’s not really that hard to just, not be so aggressive about something this vile.
Can’t be a genocide, if it’s not effective amirite? /s
Just like how israel bombed Gaza for 20 years straight and then Hamas a performed a limited ground operation.
I’m sorry, but “limited ground operation” is the same type of shadowy bullshit language as calling the genocide in Gaza a “strategic operation”.
That’s the point.
Shoot, you’re right. I’ve seen so many stupid takes in this conflict it has made me dumb.
Palestinians have the right to defend themselves.
Since when is Hizbollah Palestine?
I admit, I thought I was in a different thread.
Lebanese have the right to defend themselves, and Palestinians.
The iron dome is defense. Actively bombing outside of ones borders, in my opinion, is fucked up, no matter what “side.” It’s like all these country’s leaders are acting off PTSD responses and escalating more and more, no one attempting to deescalate. Idk what the answer is, honestly.
My ridiculous attempt to make light of the situation is to childishly wish Mr. Rogers were still alive to help us all get through this.
No, actually, occupiers have no right to defend themselves.
I agree on the premise that occupation is not a defensive strategy. The degree to how fucked up it is in comparison to actively bombing depends. The food, water, and informative (shutting down access to Internet) blockades are horrific, on par with bombing imo. The casualties in Gaza are inexcusable.
Trust me, we have common grounds of disgust here. I don’t believe we can expect to see a path toward peace if we can’t demonstrate healthy conflict management ourselves, though. Israel has been established and deserves self determination without constant threat of external anhilitation as much as any of their neighboring countries. Palestine needs to be formally recognized, as well.
you know, bomber Harris famously said: “The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw, and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation.”
but to the IDF? this is no mere delusion, they do have a guarantee that they won’t be bombed, because they have the iron dome, they can do what they want.
so I’ll pass on the notion that iron dome being “defensive” somehow stops its existence from emboldening the vile actions of the literal terrorist Regime that is the current Israeli government (yes, several top ministers of the Israeli government are internationally wanted terrorists, only taken off said lists because they became part of an official government)
but to the IDF? this is no mere delusion, they do have a guarantee that they won’t be bombed, because they have the iron dome, they can do what they want.
the iron dome is literally not a guarantee that you can’t be bombed, i think the iron dome has had a 90% effectiveness thus far, but don’t quote me on it.
And besides, if you destroy the anti air, like we did in operation sandstorm, you can’t exactly stop it.
Or better yet, pull a hopeless diamond and simply fly stealth bombers over. (assuming that works of course)
if you want to argue that they don’t have these capabilities, sure, that’s literally how asymmetrical warfare works though.
The iron dome didn’t protect them on October 7th. It didn’t protect them completely today. I have friends that grew up there with the reality of seeking out bomb shelters constantly. Without, they’d be glassed by now. I agree they probably feel emboldened, but not without good reason. Should we compare surrounding regimes on the amount of internationally recognized terrorists in positions of dictatorship? At least Israeli citizens have some level of recourse if they’re dissatisfied. I think all individuals deserve the same level of self determination, along with Palestinians, Iranians, etc.
I know there’s nuance in how Israel and the US have played roles actively discouraging or even overthrowing democratic regimes, but I want to be careful not to take accountability away from each individual that has contributed to the suffering of innocent people. Abuse always has precursors.
Sorry this is totally OT, but is that place called Cafe Yourself?
It looks like it says Cafe youssef. Youssef is a fairly common last name.
And first name
Like Yusef Lateef, the jazz musician!
LOL. where was the hezbolla of poland? fuck any iranian proxy.
Oh, look. The hasbara has shown up.
Let’s tell him to eat shit.
LOL. no civilized person will ever root for hezbolla,hamas or houthis. i give a shit about groups of people that discriminate against women, lgbtq, atheist etc. so fuck iran. may they vanish soon. oh, and they will… theran is build on dry dust and as every regime they give a shit about people and dont tell their poor slave citizens. just like they right now dont even dare to mention consequences of their attack. right now iran is shitting on their people. they could warn their people, advise to have some water, batteries and food ready…but no…iranian regime is just animals and so are their proxies. no way around it.
Didn’t take you long to start peddling white supremacism, eh hasbara?
And the racism comes out. You know I’ve never seen a single non-Racist person support Israel.
You know I’ve never seen a single non-Racist person support Israel.
And all the countries that support and enable Israel are all countries with deep histories of white supremacist exploitation and genocide.
Must be a complete coincidence, eh?
a regime is not a race
maybe visit a school some time
The people you think are civilized keep bombing schools, while those you think are uncivilized build them.
no. they just give a small piece of what they’ve gotten. the regime in iran, hezbolla, hamas etc abuse civilians as shields to hide their crimes. but maybe you can point me to the lgbtq spokesperson for iran or the houthis? cant. because they are just hatefull and uncivilized.
Ah yes only israel is civilized tell us more about how barbaric those brown people are (which makes it okay for israel to commit Genocide on them like a truly “civilized” white society)
But Israel bad!! Stop ruining my fragile world view!!
/s
I find it intriguing, your name, but then you are here defending the invasion of a sovereign nation.
That’s because i don’t see it as “unprovoked invasion”. It is an invasion for sure, but Hezbollah been begging for it
Removed by mod
Islam is a shit religion, I know I am an ex-Muslim, but Christianity and Judaism are far worse. Also the modern root and success of Islamism today stems from colonialism, a response to colonialism, and the cold war. Muslims did nothing to make the evangelical Americans the way they are or to the Jews of what zionism is and has become.
imo all religions suck, but I wouldn’t call any of them cancer, that’s very dehumanising. one of the reasons I dislike islam is because it dehumanises people. saying shit like “islam is cancer” is just bad as calling for the death of infidels
Fuck off back to Reddit buddy.
I won’t :)
