I know that it’s Chinese and it translates roughly as “white/Western left.” Looking it up on the Chinese wiki, Google translate gives me… well, this:
It is used to describe people who support policies such as the abolition of the death penalty , [ 3 ] animal protection , environmental protection , body equality , skin equality , LGBT , feminism , vegetarianism , marijuana decriminalization , euthanasia , abortion and immigration , that is, people with cultural leftist ideas in the European and American world.
This paints baizuo as something akin to American conservative terms like “woke” or “SJW.” On the other hand, I’ve seen baizuo on Hexbear a few times, but in those contexts it seemed to mean something closer to “succdem” or “Western chauvinist” rather than the definition above. Obviously, a term used to insult feminists, LGBT people, and environmentalists would be incredibly out of place on this site, hence why I’m asking about it rather than taking a machine-translated Wiki article at face value.
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A lot of those issues are in fact only mostly hegemonic in the western left, and even that is a recent thing that I do think it’s probably related to how we can’t really get anything done with economic issues.
In the rest of the world where life is generally worse it doesn’t shock me that other things are prioritized, and in some countries where these issues are used as cudgels by imperial core countries (to condition aid or policy) opposing them passes as an anti-imperialist, or at least pro-sovereignty, cause.
It’s also true that someone who supports all these culturally left positions doesn’t necessarily support other historically leftists causes like anti-imperialism and anti-militarism (anti-nato), so I guess some chinese people invented a term for that kind of leftist, which, from the outside I guess if you count the “left” very broadly from center-left socdems to progressive liberals it would seem like that’s all the “white left” is.
I’ve actually never seen baizuo used in the context that wiki is suggesting, at least not on hexbear or reddit. When liberals use it they’ve always intended it as a semi-racist “Why do you support china if you’re white?” insult which betrays their nationalism, when hexbears use it it’s always been about chauvinism.
Honestly didn’t know the etymology coming from an unhinged weirdo, but I’ve generally used it (irl mind you, I’m in China) as a handwaive when family asks about why X in the west is bad/inefficient/non-existent and “right wingers” isn’t the cause.
Like what’s with the aversion to nuclear power? Combination of 白左 and also the fossil fuel lobby.
Or if a policy that does (ostensibly) benefit poor people but is means tested to death, and they ask why it’s set up like that. 白左
But I don’t really often hear it in China. My family is just weirdly politically engaged due to being former Party members and revolutionaries. The average guy in the street is absolutely not going to use the phrase ever.
Yeah sure weirdos on XHS will also use it to refer to any aspect of the Western “left” they see online that they disagree with, but it’s wholly inconsistent. Could be addressing Ultras. Or trots. Or liberals. Or redditors. Or nazbols. Or socdems. Or demsocs. I feel like XHS comment sections are like 2 steps away from calling Shanghai 白左.
Like what’s with the aversion to nuclear power? Combination of 白左 and also the fossil fuel lobby.
The aversion to nuclear power here in europe is mostly the cultural scars that chernobyl had on Europe along with various different instances of massive polluting by major companies and nobody believing any for-profit company could be trustworthy enough to manage it safely.
It can’t be understated how significant Chernobyl was on european mindsets about nuclear power. That shit legitimately did nearly destroy europe and people’s attitudes to nuclear power were very heavily affected by it. Those attitudes then passed on.
Another small part of me thinks that anti-nuclear power movements were also tied together with anti-nuclear movements and that such movements possibly once believed that opposing nuclear power helped prevent nuclear weapon proliferation because they wouldn’t have the materials to be enriched for weapons. But this thought is not really based on anything I’ve read, I think it’s something that might have been discussed by orgs privately at the time though.
I feel like XHS comment sections are like 2 steps away from calling Shanghai 白左.
Isn’t this the general sentiment there already? I thought they already thought of Shanghai as honorary westerners, or trying way too hard to be westerners.
Baizuo was either came up by or came up by a fan of some reactionary netizen who’s famous for some unhinged ideology called Auntology. You can read a summary of Auntology for yourself. It’s just unhinged reactionary shit. A weird part of it is that he actually wants to balkanize China. I think a lot of those balkanized China maps floating around were made by his shitty fandom. So the weird thing about him is he isn’t a Chinese ultranationalist (he doesn’t think China should exist) or a Han chauvinist (he apparently thinks Han isn’t a real ethnicity) but some Chinese reactionary who wants to balkanize China.
The bai in baizuo is also from baichi, which means idiot. So, baizuo doesn’t just mean white left but also idiotic left. A more fitting translation of baizuo would be white leftoid or white left*rd.
That term was always sus.
Auntology as a handle is really funny though, if it’s a pun on hauntology
The bai in baizuo is also from baichi, which means idiot. So, baizuo doesn’t just mean white left but also idiotic left. A more fitting translation of baizuo would be white leftoid or white left*rd.
That’s not how Chinese language works. Just because 白 (bái) can be part of a word that means “idiot” doesn’t mean that it is infused with the meaning of idiocy. That’s like saying “the bai in baizuo is also from mingbai, which means clear/reasonable so baizuo doesn’t just mean white left but also reasonable left”. Which is obviously absurd lol. In most contexts, 白 means “white” and nothing else, although there are obviously many cultural associations with the colour white that are layered on top of that.
The connection between baizuo and baichi was established by those reactionaries. Like, you can say that baizuo is just an abbreviated form of baichi zuopai (idiotic left). “bai = white and zuo = left, so baizuo = white left” is something you would say if you just ran each character individually through Google Translate. Nobody calls the Black Panthers “heizuo” even though the two characters translated separately is “Black left.”
My broader point is that the term, due to its reactionary origins, isn’t as innocently translated as “white left.”
The connection between baizuo and baichi was established by those reactionaries. Like, you can say that baizuo is just an abbreviated form of baichi zuopai (idiotic left).
Is this your hypothesis or did you read this somewhere? The wiki article in the OP says 是”白人”与“左派”两个标签结合组成的称号, i.e., it’s a grouping of “white person” and “left wing”. I’m not saying you’re wrong, it’s just that I didn’t get that vibe as someone who speaks Chinese, especially because 白痴 is more of a clinical/bookish term for idiot and not something I heard people say very often in everyday life. I only went to uni in China and I’m not a native speaker though.
Hmm a “soyboy wojak” situation
Or how “aquaponics” is “aquaculture hydroponics.”
Baizuo is definitely a term that I’ve seen widely used on leftist circles on Chinese internet. And when I say Chinese leftists, a large portion of them are the nationalistic, anti-LGBT people who really hate American and Western imperialism. These are the type of people who are obsessed with geopolitics. Most normal Chinese people don’t care about politics at all (and a reminder that most normal people don’t obsess about the same shit we’re obsessed about here).
I am currently actively avoiding Chinese internet. Since Trump won, my bilibili feed has been filled with videos with millions of views talking about how Trump is finally going to take on the “woke movement” (觉醒运动), the weird obsession with Elon Musk (have you seen that AI video of Musk vs the court eunuchs with millions of views?), people who really hate Biden and how he deserved to lose, and people who think Trump is a comrade who will help take down the US empire.
American politics is like an entertainment in China right now and the diversity of opinions of it is a complete mess. There are some good analyses for sure but also many that are no different than a reactionary screed.
Trump is a comrade who will help take down the US empire.
Comrade? No. Take down the US empire? Maybe lmao
There’s an online obsession with musk on parts of China? Damm that’s sad
I mean, Tesla is still the best selling pure EV in China (~500k sold from Q1-3 so far, a comparable number to the US) but it might get overtaken by BYD soon (and already massively outcompeted if you take into account the lower priced hybrids). There really is a weird obsession with Elon Musk that I cannot explain lol.
And this makes the whole DOGE cost cutting thing even more absurd because if the US goes into recession, the demand for Teslas in both countries will certainly plunge, and Elon would have effectively killed his own business. Would have been funny if not for the fact that millions of people will also lose their jobs because they let this idiot dictate the fiscal policy.
And this makes the whole DOGE cost cutting thing even more absurd because if the US goes into recession, the demand for Teslas in both countries will certainly plunge, and Elon would have effectively killed his own business. Would have been funny if not for the fact that millions of people will also lose their jobs because they let this idiot dictate the fiscal policy.
Elon won’t be dictating policy, he’ll be dictating who in government gets purged. The job he’s angling for is to be the one to determine who goes and who stays.
He’ll determine who survives to dictate policy.
You know how when a company wants to save money and it sacks 60% of the workforce? That’s what Musk wants to be in charge of doing to the US government and all of its agencies.
Not Chinese (nationality) but there are gay, trans, internationalist people who love geopolitics, maps, etc!!! Dozens of us!!! (Actually far more than dozens, it’s more common than you’d think)
Yes there are pockets of us like in Hexbear but if you go out and talk to normal people about why Stalin did nothing wrong, they’ll look at you like some crazy conspiracy theorists lol
if you go out and talk to normal people about why Stalin did nothing wrong, they’ll look at you like some crazy conspiracy theorists lol
shit I’d better make a different plan for my upcoming visit to China
From my understanding, most Chinese people, like most people elsewhere, aren’t really political, and don’t really want to get involved in long discussions about politics. The “I just want to grill” mentality is universal.
I’m totally kidding I’d much rather learn about the person I’m talking to and their life. I’m not going to bring up politics (other than wearing a sweatshirt with a huge CPC emblem on it)
I’d be the same. I’d totally go up to the old grannies playing mahjong in the park and try to chat with them in broken mandarin.
leftist circles on Chinese internet. And when I say Chinese leftists, a large portion of them are the nationalistic, anti-LGBT people who really hate American and Western imperialism
So, like, nazbol except they’re most of the Chinese left? Is that what you’re saying?
I don’t think it’s proper to dilute the usage of nazbol in the same manner that fascist has been as a label for everything that has reactionary and/or chauvinistic characteristics.
They’re only nazbol, in so far as that “nationalistic” part refers to national chauvinism… it could mean something more defensive
have you seen that AI video of Musk vs the court eunuchs with millions of views?
I know exactly what you’re talking about lmao
auntology? ain’t that what mark fisher was always on about?
It’s right wing term used by a rightoid minority as far as I can tell
What the fuck, why is it being used as an insult on HexbearWords can have different meanings in different contexts. I’ve heard some of my Chinese leftist friends use it to mock western leftists in the same way we do here. Might’ve been a reactionary that came up with it but once it’s out in the world it’s a free-for-all.
Ehhhh, when the definitions are so close but the differences are so important that gets a little shaky, because confusing the two definitions is extremely easy. A lot of the context in which I can imagine a hexbear user using the word would make total sense with the more reactionary definition, just as much as with the better and less reactionary one, so it would be easy to misinterpret as more reactionary. And even if everyone involved knows what it means it could open up wiggle room for reactionaries to slip into site discussions, by using the term’s plausible deniability to get away with terrible statements.
“Western chauvinistic leftist” or language equivalent is generally just clearer and seems to have less murky and questionable of a background.
Plus some words just inherently emanate Hitler particles. I don’t know if this counts as such a word necessarily, but the definition given on this post comes close enough to extremely strange Nazi-Bolshevik brainworms to be uncomfortable. If the term literally is referring to mental capacity and not levels of chauvinism or evil than it is definitely a Hitler particle emanating phrase.
I’m sure your friends mean no harm, it just isn’t something I personally think should be given the complete green light to be used. (Here, probably fine in friend contexts and stuff) Maybe like a amber light for caution.
USAmericans insisting that they are “not like other leftists”
I always thought it was a rightoid gotcha to own the leftists with their own logic of “China is trad and hates you”.
As I take it it is tankie but for China instead of the USSR. So I feel like I see ultras use it the most.
Global South need some way of making fun of people from far right countries larping as socialists.
These people can’t build working class power (and social levelling would threaten their privilege) so they just aim to be moralists on the internet to make themselves feel good.
Western leftism isn’t leftism, it’s the thing that killed it.
Western leftism isn’t leftism, it’s the thing that killed it.
Oh, would you shut up? Did you forget the Marxism that came with Marxism-Leninism? (Admittedly, Marx and Engels would’ve had some western brainworms to deal with; I understand if yer referring to modern-day leftists who align with western foreign policy)
Oh and speaking of
Global South need some way of making fun of people from far right countries larping as socialists.
Apparently, it comes from one of those damned Chinese reactionaries that China should’ve cracked down more upon
Communication researcher Fang Kecheng believes that the term first appeared in an article published by a Renren user, right-wing libertarian and market fundamentalist named “Li Shuo” titled “The Pseudo-morality of Western White Leftists and Chinese Patriotic Scientists”, criticizing Western leftists who sympathize with Communist China (citing Chomsky and Yang Zaohanchun ), mainly referring to the left wing in economic and political thought [ 5 ] [ 7 ] [ a ] .
After evolution and conceptual transformation, the term “left” now only refers to the left and right on social issues, and has nothing to do with the left and right in economic thought. During the 2016 US presidential election , “white leftists” began to be widely used by Chinese netizens [ 8 ] .
I’ll tell you this, the last time someone used that sort of language regularly, in lemmygrad.ml, they were banned @[email protected]
“Western Marxism” can be distinguished as a discreet ideology because it’s literally Marxism with only Western thought. Marx was carried forward by so many non-Western thinkers into a more revolutionary and more complete theory, but Western Marxism avoids all those yucky extremists so it can be taught in Western Universities.
It’s where you get so-called Marxist who support every failed revolution but who denounce actually existing socialism.
It’s where you get so-called Marxist who support every failed revolution but who denounce actually existing socialism.
The only people I know that call themselves marxist but fit this description now are either trots(not all of them though) or r/ultraleft.
“Western Marxism” can be distinguished as a discreet ideology because it’s literally Marxism with only Western thought.
I apologize, it’s a gut reaction, I’m just uncomfortable with now using the term “baizuo”, when it has such reactionary brainworms… you know
I am opposed to western leftism, due to its anti-AES, idealist tendencies, and pro-western foreign policy, but I don’t like it when homegrown reactionaries use the term to not only bash them but us as well…
That’s why Western Marxism or Western leftism is actually the best thing to call it. Leaves no room for confusion for reactionaries to use for their cryptofash bullshit
Yes, but that’s clearly not the only use of the term.
Basically a slur for white people made by the people that claim they love white people to punish any white people that don’t immediately fall in line.
I mean, honestly, would probably be good for us to get a taste of our own medicine for a change.
